Ex lost his job in May 2013 and has finally provided disclosure. It shows he received a severance pay and it also shows RRSP (T4RSP) amounts as income for the last several years totalling approx $50,000.00. There is no paper trail in the financial statement as to where this money went. He has been intentionally unemployed since 2013 and is in default of CS. Case Conference is in one week and at this point, I am wondering if it is worth persuing as he looks like he has nothing. The cost of legal counsel would outweigh the eventual outcome and I would rather spend the money on my kids.
Work RRSP cashed in over last few years
- Thread starter lostinlaw
- Start date
lostinlaw
Are you going to case conference because the other party has filed a motion to change CS? If so file your case conference brief and attend as self rep. It costs you nothing but your time and the briefs will give you an idea of the other party's stance. (nobody ever sees these are trial- they are thrown out)
You can even agree to settle here, write it up and have the judge sign it and be done with it.
If no agreements are made nothing except advise from the judge or dispute resolution officer on how he/she thinks it will play out if taken to trial. You can also get consent orders signed for disclosure.
Listen well and take notes when the judge speaks. Once all is done do the math. If you are talking about minimal overall $$ offer to settle somewhere reasonable.
Things to ponder:
"Intentional underemployment" is provable and you can attempt to have imputed income attributed to the party(it is almost never $0)
Severance pay and has been used as basis for CS in the years received in many cases.
RRSP money is much harder to use a basis for CS (usually provable for the other party to be in a hardship situation as to why the money was taken out)
Your children have the right to be financially supported by both parents to the best of their ability. People don' t get to choose not to work at the expense of their kids.
Good Luck!
Are you going to case conference because the other party has filed a motion to change CS? If so file your case conference brief and attend as self rep. It costs you nothing but your time and the briefs will give you an idea of the other party's stance. (nobody ever sees these are trial- they are thrown out)
You can even agree to settle here, write it up and have the judge sign it and be done with it.
If no agreements are made nothing except advise from the judge or dispute resolution officer on how he/she thinks it will play out if taken to trial. You can also get consent orders signed for disclosure.
Listen well and take notes when the judge speaks. Once all is done do the math. If you are talking about minimal overall $$ offer to settle somewhere reasonable.
Things to ponder:
"Intentional underemployment" is provable and you can attempt to have imputed income attributed to the party(it is almost never $0)
Severance pay and has been used as basis for CS in the years received in many cases.
RRSP money is much harder to use a basis for CS (usually provable for the other party to be in a hardship situation as to why the money was taken out)
Your children have the right to be financially supported by both parents to the best of their ability. People don' t get to choose not to work at the expense of their kids.
Good Luck!
Thank you for your response Reality. I actually have initiated the motion to change due to payor being in default of CS since June 2013, non-payment of S7 expenses, change to amount of CS, presently it is based on his 2003 unverified income and it increased over the years. The case conference is on May 1st and I already served him my case conference brief yesterday without an answer to my original motion to change and/or requested disclosure. Yesterday, around 5:00 he actually served the paperwork himself in my mail slot at my home (I don't think this is an allowable form of service) and my case conference brief does not include any response to his filings. I am not sure what I should do, go ahead with the set case conference with my brief (which does not include any answer to what he has provided) or change the date and update my case conference brief. Also I do not know if the way he served the documents is acceptable. Thank you.
If you are the applicant in the MTC then you must serve and file the case conference brief at least 7 days prior to the May 1 date. The responding party must serve and file their case conference brief 4 days before May 1. There is NO response brief allowed by the applicant at a case conference. At this conference there is your brief and his brief and that is it. The judge or DRO does not see anything else except the financial statements (not the original MTC or the response to MTC if there was one)
Don't worry about the service - you got it. If you raise an issue all they will do is reschedule your case conference for 2 months down the road and make him serve you properly.
You go to this case conference and get things moving. You will need to ask for an Order for disclosure, set the settlement case conference date, Order for a response to MTC if possible, Order financial statement if he has not did one.
Have you list of disclosure that you want ready. Curious have you let FRO or MEP (depending on province you are in) enforce with all of their powers first?
Good Luck!
Don't worry about the service - you got it. If you raise an issue all they will do is reschedule your case conference for 2 months down the road and make him serve you properly.
You go to this case conference and get things moving. You will need to ask for an Order for disclosure, set the settlement case conference date, Order for a response to MTC if possible, Order financial statement if he has not did one.
Have you list of disclosure that you want ready. Curious have you let FRO or MEP (depending on province you are in) enforce with all of their powers first?
Good Luck!
Thank you Reality, I actually filed the case conference brief today at the court. I received his answer to MTC last night with some sketchy disclosure. He was given an extra 30 days beyond the original 30 days to submit. So I should review what he has submitted and have a list of disclosure required for next steps prepared for the case conference. I do believe he is intentionally unemployed and I suppose it is up to him to provide a list of places or persons he has applied for employment, I don't think just saying he registered with Appleone is much to offer.
Thank you for your advice,
Thank you for your advice,
Case conference in 6 days, lawyer just back from vacation and tells me he won't know until 3 days prior to cc if he can attend with me. He gave me the name of a colleague whose costs are double of what he was charging plus location is extremely inconvenient and will have to take a day off to go for an appt. the reality is the respondent is not working, abandoned the children whe they were 3 and 4, and his financial statement shows he has nothing. I don't want to waste money on lawyers when the money should go to kids. One is going to post secondary and playing Jr. Hockey, costs are already exorbitant. Feeling extremely stressed!
lostinlaw
I am not sure what kind of lawyer you have but if you have retained this lawyer that is unacceptable behavior and I would fire him/her. If you have not retained this lawyer it sounds like he/she is really not interested in taking your case.
Sounds like you either go on your own or have the case conference rescheduled. It is possible it may not be worth your time if you are not committed to the motion to change.
Why not have the FRO or MEP run this show for you? Let them enforce with all their powers. Eventually after license suspensions, passport, liens, garnish bank accounts etc... they will get to default hearing..which they will force the payor to move forward with a motion to change. Then all you do is defend.
You have to decide what is important to you for the kids and then either commit or not. P.S. Payor Financial statements always say they have nothing. IF they admitted to having something there would be no case.
Good Luck in your decisions. I always believe it is in the best interests of the children to benefit from the support of both parents to the best of their ability. (it is also the law)
I am not sure what kind of lawyer you have but if you have retained this lawyer that is unacceptable behavior and I would fire him/her. If you have not retained this lawyer it sounds like he/she is really not interested in taking your case.
Sounds like you either go on your own or have the case conference rescheduled. It is possible it may not be worth your time if you are not committed to the motion to change.
Why not have the FRO or MEP run this show for you? Let them enforce with all their powers. Eventually after license suspensions, passport, liens, garnish bank accounts etc... they will get to default hearing..which they will force the payor to move forward with a motion to change. Then all you do is defend.
You have to decide what is important to you for the kids and then either commit or not. P.S. Payor Financial statements always say they have nothing. IF they admitted to having something there would be no case.
Good Luck in your decisions. I always believe it is in the best interests of the children to benefit from the support of both parents to the best of their ability. (it is also the law)
Onto CC3 now! RF did not file CCB for 1st CC and was ordered to provide specific disclosure for CC2 since he told the judge he was using his mothers bank account to have his pay deposited into when he was employed back in 2013. He was ordered to provide all bank statements which are his own or thiird party for CC2. My lawyer sent him a letter explicitly citing what was required. He called my lawyer 4X prior to CC2 at my cost while I have been supporting 2 teenagers S16 and S19 without any child support since July 2013.He provided banking statements which were shocking - Withdrew over $100,00 from mothers account from ATM and over $50,000 from his own showing a present balamce of $10.00. Provided this disclosure to my lawyer but did not file in court. Again for the 2nd time, did not file a CCB. He told judge he didn't know he had to file with the court and asked for an adjournment which he was granted. The disclosure leads one to belive he is hiding his money so he doesn't have to pay child support. He also has bee unemployed for more than 2 years and has only provided job search record that he has registered with Appleone and Manpower. The judge told him to get a lawyer or legal advice and to file a CCB. Next CC is scheduled for Sept. he was told to contact my lawyer in 2 weeks time which was this past Friday and provide him with lawyers name which he did not do. Feeling frustrated!!!! And to top things off is in arrears with FRO and they are doing nothing to enforce this case!
mcdreamy
Moderator
Indeed! I'm flabbergasted, really. If they hadn't been fed while they were young, they wouldn't expect to have any food now.
SingingDad
New member
Food for thought on the RRSP income...
If the amounts he took out were from contributions made when you were married those benefits were already equalized after your separation.
If the amounts were from contributions made after your separation he paid support assuming those contributions were available for support. To ask for support to be paid on this amount is asking him to pay support on the same amount twice.
The most that he should be asked to pay would be the the increase in value (growth of the fund, think capital gains if it were a regular investment) since your separation.
Voluntary under or unemployment is another issue all together and harder to make a determination. If your ex can show he's been putting out resumes and job applications and/or going to interviews he may not be in that category.
If the amounts he took out were from contributions made when you were married those benefits were already equalized after your separation.
If the amounts were from contributions made after your separation he paid support assuming those contributions were available for support. To ask for support to be paid on this amount is asking him to pay support on the same amount twice.
The most that he should be asked to pay would be the the increase in value (growth of the fund, think capital gains if it were a regular investment) since your separation.
Voluntary under or unemployment is another issue all together and harder to make a determination. If your ex can show he's been putting out resumes and job applications and/or going to interviews he may not be in that category.
arabian
New member
I believe that if you provide proof to FRO of his depositing pay into his mother's bank account FRO can get an Order to seize the account. I would be riding FRO very hard about this situation. Call them repeatedly. Fax them repeatedly. You have proof that your ex is using 2nd party to avoid CS. One would think that this is more than enough reason for FRO to get an SDO put on all major banks. His DL and passport should have been cancelled long ago. Your FRO account should show a federal deduction (for GST/tax returns).
Use FRO to squeeze him like a pimple.
Use FRO to squeeze him like a pimple.
arabian
New member
Standing deduction order (FRO might have another name for it): Non-Wage Support Deduction Notices.
It is an order which goes out electronically to all the banks to deduct the total amount from the bank accounts which have the person's name on it. It can be a jointly held account. In the case of a jointly held account, the person who is not party to the action applies to keep their proportion of the money if they can prove it is, indeed their money). Maintenance enforcement agencies usually do this after all other collection actions have failed to get the person to pay.
They can also go after health benefits, trust accounts in lawyer's offices (just to name a few).
It is an order which goes out electronically to all the banks to deduct the total amount from the bank accounts which have the person's name on it. It can be a jointly held account. In the case of a jointly held account, the person who is not party to the action applies to keep their proportion of the money if they can prove it is, indeed their money). Maintenance enforcement agencies usually do this after all other collection actions have failed to get the person to pay.
They can also go after health benefits, trust accounts in lawyer's offices (just to name a few).
At the 2nd case conference the respondent father who is self-represented did not prepare or file a case conference brief with the court, he asked for the case to be adjourned which the judge agreed to but did advise him to get a lawyer or legal advice and file a cc brief and to contact my lawyer within 2 weeks of the last court date which he has not done. The next case conference #3 is coming up in 3 weeks. What happens when the respondent does not do as the judge has requested them to do and they agreed verbally to in court. He still has not provided the full disclosure requested from case conference 1. This is becoming extremely frustrating as he is not complying and keeps dragging this case out. Thanks for any advice.