what is the better way of getting the material possessions done between the ex and I

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ddol1

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I am the first to admit that a negotiation or an agreement with my Ex in the grand process has indeed been made more difficult by her constantly changing what we had "agreed upon". We had decided we were not going to nickle and dime the stuff in the house (not worth the time, energy and money) we were just going to make two lists, hers and his and too be fair the kids had their things too! (this was assuming we both could grow up and just do it instead of giving it all to the lawyers.

We had looked at this stuff as being what was inside the house (and we could touch it with our hands) so it did not include rrsp's, pensions, bank accounts and finally we were not even going to bother with figuring the value on the "open market" - just divide, sign and be happy.

My lawyer disagreed with this (fairly strongly I might add) he stated that everything needs to get listed exactly as it was on the date of valuation - I now got the impression the 13.1 declaration had to be done to the letter - no matter how much more difficult or costly it may be to get it all onto that form. To not do this was asking for bigger troubles down the line when or if things do not go down all that "smoothly".

Friday my lawyer said told me we were going to do our 13.1 declaration to the books and whatever agreement we may have had to divide out stuff is in the garbage can. It was the only safe way to do this? I did not have time to ask him any whys - but are there any opinions out there with how things went in our case, doing everything by the books to the letter, or just making it a rough number we both would agree too and be done with it this saving lawyer's fees??
 
If you hadn't been arrested, I would have suggested that you, your ex, and a neutral third party, all spend a couple of hours in the house, and just take turns picking objects.

But now, I don't have any good solutions, although I do think that your lawyer, helpful as he may appear, is trying to inflate the conflict, and his bill. But maybe it's your ex with the major conflict and your lawyer feels this is the best strategy for dealing with her?
 
So far I think I have found one of the few who, at least in my case, has not billed anything even remotely close to his time, the number of calls he made to my home to check on me, to update his advice following further investigation but mostly for me the person. Even now, the last meeting I paid for1/2 hour and we spend a solid 2 hours - more. I justifiablly will try my best to keep tabs on the retainer but from the beginning he has not acted or billed to what many describe here as the lawyer who took it all and in return offered nothing to the resolution of divorce proceedings. He has really tried to get a handle on the people (there is always at least two people and two "sides".

I came across the notes I wrote down last April and from what little I had back then and the questions he asked he had actually pegged my ex and predicted so much of what has happened, what she had done over the last five plus years and finally me. Why I would let myself get into the position I now find myself in........ so far I trust he is not a conflict creator - actually he has spent more time on changing my thought pattern to not one of "I shall leave this one blank" to one of moderation, and mediation to resolve as much as we can reasonably.

Since you have made me think, both my lawyer and myself - maybe we are thinking the same thing - there gets to the point that she has been showing that she will not mediate unless it is to agree with her way of thinking which in the end is nothing like mediation. And this is what the lawyer is preping for.
 
I followed the same procedure as you, both me and my ex drew up lists, exchanged them, debated over a few items.

Then I came home from work and my ex had taken everything anyways. Plus my lawyers bills relating to division of assets came to around $4000.

Then the remaining items I did get to keep had to be put into storage for a year until I could afford a place to put any of it, costing me another $3400.

So in the end I paid about 3x the value of the stuff when I should left it to her or tossed it on the curb and started over.

Do not waste any time on possessions. A $400 chair = 1 hour of lawyer time, and it will take many chairs worth of time to settle some items.
 
My ex and I split things up ourselves.

Your lawyer is simply advising you on how to do things via your lawyer, in a way that is comprehensive and defensible in court.

If you and your ex are on the same page, and you can both control you lawyers, you can do it yourselves. You can simply write in your separation agreement something like (as I have in my as of yet unsigned SA):

Furthermore, all assets not listed in the following pages, commonly referred to as chattels, have been divided between the Husband and Wife to the satisfaction of the Husband and Wife.

Having lawyers talk about, list, define, or charge for couches, chairs, dishes, etc, is COMPLETE INSANITY given their fees.

As for the 13.1, just pick some numbers and both use the same.

Control your lawyers and save money!
 
Hi billm:

Actually the lawyers don't do it. They have special valuators who come in and basically put a price on everything in your home. The only time this is worthwhile is if you have hundreds of thousands of dollars or more in household items such as art, furniture, etc. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.

I, like you, took 2 days to get this done and my spouse is extremely difficult. I went through the house and make a list of the contents. Then I gave him everything I knew he was sentimentally attached to (big screen tvs) and everything that was more "his"...ie, he used more or purchased. I took my things that I did the same for and equally divided the rest. I emailed him the list...it went back and forth twice over little things which I conceeded to and was done. I moved out a bit over a month ago and things went very smoothly....not one thing was argued over and our lawyers were never involved. Its just stuff...its alll replaceable and my peace of mind isn't. In the weeks since I've moved, my children and I have very much enjoyed shopping to replace the few things that I needed...ie, my new TVs are bigger and nicer. My main concern was actually getting out of the house and getting my equity quickly because it allowed me to pay off my entire lawyers bill....because generally if you pay early, you get a substantial reduction. Its also very nice to have the whole thing paid off.

I have attacked everything that needs to get done in my divorce in pretty much the same mindset. Be quick, be fair, avoid conflict, no whining and get it done and its been pretty successful so far.
 
Gosh the logic is so compelling! You have me sold!! Oopps (I was sold :-((

I do actually recognize two issues that hang over this is today for me:
1> by order of the courts I shall not contact her in any way aside thru a lawyer - so unless that provision is removed.......
2> there are a couple of points that will not go away but the biggest is the pain and suffering money from my accident is treated very special, and it stays with the injured party - this alone will break down - well if she hasn't allowed herself to accept anything..... she will go balistic over this one item and nice will be all over. Nothing to do but wait?
 
ddo1, I heard a lawyer suggest that one person make two lists that divide the items as equally as possible and then put these lists in two envelopes.

The other party then picks one of the envelopes. Since the person making the lists doesn't know which one they will end up with they generally do a decent job of dividing things up. It might be worth making this suggestion.

Pursuinghappinees, I'm glad things are working out for you. Your ex seems to be difficult to work with and you seem to be able to find a way to negotiate with him. However, this is not always the case.

I agree that ddo1 tends to over think everything. I also think he is just trying to be prepared for the worst. I don't think his ex is going to give up anything without a fight.

I have been trying to get an agreement for over 3 years now. I am tired of hearing that we are 'close on issues' and this is a 'fairly simple' straight forward file, 'you two are a joy to work with', blah, blah, blah. My ex appears logical and rational and I agree with most of what he offers, (even though my lawyer has advised that I am giving up too much), and then he shows his true self and negotiations go off the rails and then he changes his mind about what agrees with or changes lawyers and then changes lawyers back again.

I have spent so much money, its ridiculous and I can't seem to get anywhere close to an agreement.

Sorry this turned into a rant. I'm having a very frustrating day, frustrating couple of weeks actually.

What I wanted to say was not everything is a straight line.
 
ddol1 said:
the biggest is the pain and suffering money from my accident is treated very special, and it stays with the injured party - this alone will break down -
Click to expand...

That money is legally yours and she has no right to it. You were the one injured, you were the one who suffered, you were the one compensated. not her. Have your lawyer send her and her lawyer the rules on this one and let them know that this is one thing that she WILL NOT get her hands on.

My ex should be getting a settlement from the loss of his thumb. I've been told that I have a stake in that since we are not divorced yet. But there is NO WAY I am going down that road. It was his thumb, he keeps the money. Going after something that is meant to compensate someone for a loss they suffered is the lowest of the low!

I hope to God you didnt mix it in with other martital assets.
 
I am sorry - long Rant like post again!! I just can't hit delete - I have really begun to (Can I call this my rant of the month??) It does answer to billiechic's post and also after 25 years things do really prove true to what is declared in the spousal support guideliines - "That marriage and finances do indeed fall under the Merger Over Time Theory". As to your Ex's injury, money which is paid out to replace lost income is deemed shareable as the premise is if he wasn't injured he would have been working - I understand that.

What follows is what happens with these types of issues to most couples should they live "joint" lives. The courts I have been told are beginning to relax the issue of joint vs. seperate as marriage does promote joint living, caring for the family, the children, all as one - As a couple taking care of their family to the best of their ability.... Can you see a spouse retaining settlement money while the kids are hungry, you are about to lose the matramonial home because you are not making payments (but spouse "A" has 100k settlement money in the bank? I can't)

My Rant, might even be an old one -- What follows begins to "explain" the effort (month after month - not including the medical issues that continue to have their toll - but I do my best, it is all I can do - For me. I have put into proving from year one that the probability of the settlement monies being put towards the house is small and the intent that we, I intended to retain the settlement money for long term "retirement" purposes. Not vacations, cars, home theaters or the house - If I can correlate the funds and where things went then I prove the truth or at least again show the likelyhood or probability that my funds were put aside, invested into the rrsp's when possible - then that portion at least of the settlement money stays with me.

It is not so much as mix it with the other assetts as proving 100% that it did not find its way into the matramionial home. I admit my gray area remains again my health. I lasted about two years into our marriage until it became clear that getting my body to the bank was near impossible and the answer was to put her as a signer to make changes to my banking and mutual funds - this in effect made her joint to all my funds but not the reverse - I never needed to be joint to hers as she was always able to "get to the bank".

Year after year, 10 years later it just became the way we did it.....even when i returned to work for a few years - never saw the need to take her off. move to early 2000 and yes it made sense again for her to have signing authority due to my health and my difficulties. Wordy but all was going to plan, money was set off in an account that was to be my long term savings retirement fund financed by my various windfalls generated by the medical related settlements.

All to plan untill I got really sick and was no longer capable of managing even the basics (I leave it as a simple - I was not capable of changing what would happen) we always made our decisions together and she executed what I asked her to. I needed the data presented to me in a certain way for me to understand it but as I lost my ability she just took off and did things with our assets, my retirement funds (I could not make regular RRSP savings anymore since I had no taxable income - it was all about saving what I had out side the RRSP. Then came the TFSAs! My answer to the RRSP as the funds are sheltered from taxation, no different than RRSP's - like everything in our 25 years our financial plan was always geared to maximizing the returns and minimizing the taxation - even tried to keep our RRSP's equal so we would reduce taxation when that time came.

All this was great untill 2006 - my first breakdown and I went down from there - most of what I have put in this forum I only learned after she asked for her divorce and it started when I went to our bank manager in desperatation for help - and what he helped me find out I still can't believe, she did it, and basically emptied the accounts in front of my nose, all of them in the next 3 years or so - 20 plus years of savings. Gone and she hid it all (her actions). Now she denies it all except for the fact the bank went to town for me and retrieved all the data, even could prove who made the transactions and she has been told/shown the evidence. She has now turned - I leave at as she now believes it is in her best interest to hurt me anyway she can - her way of coping........ this is all about what she chose to do, the chances she took, the lies she made to my face over and over. I have learned what fuduciary duty means for a spouse and reckless dissipation of marital assets.............

She removed 40K of these assets in two months, She took over 10K a week after I had put the funds in the account to transfer back into my TFSA but I needed to wait until Jan 1 2011 - she took the funds Dec 27th - when I went to transfer, she admitted to taking it - she would return it out of her paycheck...... even today she hasn't grasped the concept of marriage and it doesn't matter who earns it - income is 50/50 so I was going to pay me back half of her debt - didn't matter because three months later she asked for her divorce...... but as to the disability money income related payments are shared 50/50 - it is the non income related payments that are treated differently.

Today I am on a break - seams i bought the paper and toner to print all these pages fo rthe divorce but she will not release them to me. I bought a used printer and darn - the colour toner ran out and I am doing black and white but the printer will not continue until the colour is replaced. I can't even copy all of these pages without going -(I was going to say a word but out of a new found respect I shal not) but I can't even do that without getting all screwed up - I got so confused yesterday I just slumped to the floor and sat there for hours staring off into....... this morning first thing is the toner (I at least know someone who will sell it for basically cost - friend of my daughters - ha! Ex husband! Maybe there is a little bit of simpathy going..... no he is aware how hard it has been at our house the last few years - last time we spoke he actually said he admired my refusal to just give up..... I guess after 25 years I do not know how. Rant over.
 
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