After seeing a lawyer for almost 3 years we, husband and I (his child), have finally received all documentation and expenses for his child.(after she has attended university for now 6 years). During this time he has paid his child support and tuition as well as expenses related to living in residence and having a meal plan. ( court ordered 66 per cent of S7 expenses stemming from court agreement at time of divorce over ten years ago) Three years ago she moved into an apartment with a roommate an hour subway ride from school. A judge, during the case conference, stated that the child support and the section 7 expenses were one in the same as her lawyer was claiming that he did not pay enough child support, even though he is since retired making less of an income. My question is what is he now liable to pay. She is claiming clothes of all types, Ikea, shoes, Netflix, grocery stores, pharmacies,plus of course rent,cell phone,bus pass,contacts the list goes on. Now also the child works part time and made $19,000 dollars last year. His child support portion has paid her rent. He has paid 66 percent of tuition, of which they never took the grants and bursaries off. Child has a loan, but they told the judge that they never used it that it was just in case he didn't pay. He is getting raked over the coals and still paying lawyers bills and was just told by the judge that they need to go to mediation. Ex is still claiming he owes more. Oh ya, child has not gotten a degree in anything yet.She will be 25 in December.
What are considered S7 expenses while attending university?
- Thread starter Cindy39
- Start date
Does he have anything in his agreement about cs stopping at an age? Most agreements state 21-22 or first degree, whatever comes first.
Has kid finished full time years of study? For instance has it taken this long because she failed enough courses to be considered part time?
I ask because it could impact the amount of what he should have paid vs what he actually paid.
Post secondary is a very gray area but there are set costs. Tuition, books, equipment for the program (ie science materials, safety clothes etc.), rent/residence, groceries/meal plans, transportation to school if its not provided (some schools have a bus pass in tuition).
Your husbands ex will be hard pressed to claim furniture, netflix and other ridiculous non school necessary items as legit. Ask yourself "is this reasonably necessary for the pursuit of a post secondary degree". If she needs a bed, necessary. She doesn't need netflix to get a degree.
He may want to look at what the wording in his agreement is and what is required. Then consider all of his costs he has paid for.
They can go to mediation but a mediator will be reasonable and advise the ex what is or isn't appropriate. If he doesn't want to do that, he can simply call her bluff and take him to court for the extra bs costs.
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Has kid finished full time years of study? For instance has it taken this long because she failed enough courses to be considered part time?
I ask because it could impact the amount of what he should have paid vs what he actually paid.
Post secondary is a very gray area but there are set costs. Tuition, books, equipment for the program (ie science materials, safety clothes etc.), rent/residence, groceries/meal plans, transportation to school if its not provided (some schools have a bus pass in tuition).
Your husbands ex will be hard pressed to claim furniture, netflix and other ridiculous non school necessary items as legit. Ask yourself "is this reasonably necessary for the pursuit of a post secondary degree". If she needs a bed, necessary. She doesn't need netflix to get a degree.
He may want to look at what the wording in his agreement is and what is required. Then consider all of his costs he has paid for.
They can go to mediation but a mediator will be reasonable and advise the ex what is or isn't appropriate. If he doesn't want to do that, he can simply call her bluff and take him to court for the extra bs costs.
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Thanks Rockscan,
The first major problem is there is nothing at all in his divorce papers as to an end at all. No age or event in which child support ends. It is the lawyer of hers that is just brutal, they have stalled, lied, made up things, all I am sure to get him to give up and just keep paying. I am considering reporting the lawyer to the Upper Law Society. This has been going back and forth for almost three years and they are still lying and in my opinion committing fraud, I don't understand how they can get away with this legally. We are not expecting anything from mediation and the next step is to drop his lawyer and self represent for a trial.
The first major problem is there is nothing at all in his divorce papers as to an end at all. No age or event in which child support ends. It is the lawyer of hers that is just brutal, they have stalled, lied, made up things, all I am sure to get him to give up and just keep paying. I am considering reporting the lawyer to the Upper Law Society. This has been going back and forth for almost three years and they are still lying and in my opinion committing fraud, I don't understand how they can get away with this legally. We are not expecting anything from mediation and the next step is to drop his lawyer and self represent for a trial.
Yes she has and also most of her income tax forms in which one year she received WITB, which she cannot receive while she is a full time student but they came back and said oh that was a mistake. I almost believe that. She apparently likes being a student and why wouldn't she, her father is paying for the lions share of it.
What are considered S7 expenses while attending university?
He should file a motion to change and have cs and post secondary terminated since it is taking her so long to get one degree. That agreement is ridiculous and he shouldnt have to pay this long OR be allowed to pay the kid directly.
Technically shes not committing fraud. Her child is still a child of the marriage by law so she is still eligible. Your husband needs and order to stop it.
Your lawyer wont do anything because its simply spinning your wheels to go for fraud.
He should file a motion to change and have cs and post secondary terminated since it is taking her so long to get one degree. That agreement is ridiculous and he shouldnt have to pay this long OR be allowed to pay the kid directly.
Technically shes not committing fraud. Her child is still a child of the marriage by law so she is still eligible. Your husband needs and order to stop it.
Your lawyer wont do anything because its simply spinning your wheels to go for fraud.
The reason I bring up fraud,is not the fact that she is entitled to c.s and s7, it is the way they are doing it by collecting money from him when the expenses are not as much as they are putting forth. Example being the tuition costs are not being reduced by the grants received before giving him the bill. Year one her tuition was approx. 13,000 but she received a 3,200 grant but hey charged him 66 percent of 13,000.00, there are many more examples but that is just one.
Then he shouldnt have paid it. Hes supposed to pay the net cost which is minus the grants and the tax deduction. He needs to have his lawyer calculate that and then tell them this is what he pays. And he should be taking it off the amount he pays going forward. As in "my share of expenses this year is $10,000 but I overpaid $3,000 the last two years so heres my cheque for $7,000". His lawyer and he are equally to blame for paying it. The judge just tries to sort through the bullshit. Of course the ex is going to say shit. My partners ex started university expenses by saying "we should follow your estimates" from 8 months prior. He called her on it knowing she had full details and suddenly the expenses dropped by $3000. Then she didnt have receipts and claimed $5,000 in expenses with no proof. His lawyer said tuition, books, shelter and food and then he calculated it. The ex doesn't agree but she has yet to file court papers. Unfortunately this is also some of the wording in his agreement so hes covered that way.
Your husband and his lawyer need to start presenting their argument better and be a bit more aggressive.
Your husband and his lawyer need to start presenting their argument better and be a bit more aggressive.
You are absolutely correct however he was never supplied with all the information and when he did start questioning it she just submitted the bills to FRO and they threatened to take his pension and all that stuff until he paid it and that's where it all started three years ago and it took 2.5 of those years to actually see all the paperwork and we then calculated he overspent 50,000 dollars in first four years.
We are still finding new information when we are going through all of this useless paperwork that her lawyer has sent over.
We are still finding new information when we are going through all of this useless paperwork that her lawyer has sent over.
I have to say that my husband has been a bit naive in the sense that he trusted them to be honest and straight forward. He has no issues with paying for his daughter and he wants the best for her but when you hit a point where you are being taken advantage of, it has hurt him and this will definitely cause a problem with his relationship with his daughter.
Janus
New member
The point is that it is not fraud.
The current order states that your husband needs to pay. It is not fraudulent to enforce a valid court order. If the order is inappropriate, then you need to go to court to get the order changed. Once the order is changed, the ex will not be able to enforce the old order, and the problem is solved.
Is this order being enforced by FRO? How is the ex collecting the money for ridiculous expenses from your husband? Is he just handing it over?
Also, if you are paying (or contributing) for the kid's residence at school, you should not be paying table CS.
The current order states that your husband needs to pay. It is not fraudulent to enforce a valid court order. If the order is inappropriate, then you need to go to court to get the order changed. Once the order is changed, the ex will not be able to enforce the old order, and the problem is solved.
Is this order being enforced by FRO? How is the ex collecting the money for ridiculous expenses from your husband? Is he just handing it over?
Also, if you are paying (or contributing) for the kid's residence at school, you should not be paying table CS.
I hear you. My partners ex refuses to be up front with him and then she and his kid point fingers at each other when he asks questions. He tries to help his kid but she wont cooperate. Then she bitches about how he doesnt help her.
He really needs to go through everything with a fine tooth comb. Review every detail and what has been paid both by him and to the kid. Then he needs to figure out what he overpaid and go from there.
If she submits to FRO, he needs to file a dispute and tell them he is currently in litigation to resolve it.
He really needs to go through everything with a fine tooth comb. Review every detail and what has been paid both by him and to the kid. Then he needs to figure out what he overpaid and go from there.
If she submits to FRO, he needs to file a dispute and tell them he is currently in litigation to resolve it.
arabian
New member
A 50k overpayment is most definitely a good reason to have everything recalculated via court order. Of course you would have to substantiate everything.
It's not like you don't have a lawyer retained. You simply have to INSTRUCT the lawyer to do so. If necessary, get another lawyer.
I agree, this is not fraud.
It's not like you don't have a lawyer retained. You simply have to INSTRUCT the lawyer to do so. If necessary, get another lawyer.
I agree, this is not fraud.
Janus
Janus
The reason I do feel it is fraud is because she is not subtracting the child's grants and bursaries before calculating his 66 percent. How can you charge someone on money that was never paid out? One year she had a grant of over $3000.00, 66% of that is 1980.00. That is just one grant.Unfortunately we never knew any of these details as they kept it all a secret I assume. There are so many shady things that have gone on and yes he did just hand the money over, he was trusting them.
Janus
The reason I do feel it is fraud is because she is not subtracting the child's grants and bursaries before calculating his 66 percent. How can you charge someone on money that was never paid out? One year she had a grant of over $3000.00, 66% of that is 1980.00. That is just one grant.Unfortunately we never knew any of these details as they kept it all a secret I assume. There are so many shady things that have gone on and yes he did just hand the money over, he was trusting them.
Janus
New member
He needs to stop handing money over. If you accuse somebody of defrauding you, it is going to be tough to explain why you continued to give them money.
Don't pay a penny unless full and proper documentation is obtained.
If the person you are charging never asks to see a bill, then you can do whatever you want.
Improper perhaps, but not fraud. You don't win in court by making accusations that are completely out of proportion to the reality.
If FRO is taking your money, then you go to court and get a court order for the correct amount.
If FRO is not taking your money, then you should not be losing any money. If you pay money without proper documentation, then that is your own fault. No court in the land can save you from yourself.
North of 40
New member
Not sure what degree she could possibly be getting.
If you go in at say/17/18 you can do an undergrad in 2 1/2 / 3 years. So out at 20 years of age.
Frankly, she's not taking enough courses to be a full time student. I.e. the University would turf you. Moreover, she only has so much time to finish the degree. I.e. 7 years / PT.
Sounds like complete BS and she's jacking you guys around.
If you go in at say/17/18 you can do an undergrad in 2 1/2 / 3 years. So out at 20 years of age.
Frankly, she's not taking enough courses to be a full time student. I.e. the University would turf you. Moreover, she only has so much time to finish the degree. I.e. 7 years / PT.
Sounds like complete BS and she's jacking you guys around.
After four years my partners ex finally decided to stop using estimates and sent receipts. The best part is that shes claiming expenses in several cities that are not where the school is and expenses like make-up and perfume. He told me last night hes actually embarrassed this is his kid.
well it is all irrelevant now...case conference judge said mediation, they are not up for mediating they are just demanding more money and that is it so now it is off to court...without our lawyer...just too damn much money for not one bit of satisfaction. They did however agree to stop child support after 6 years of university but want another 6000 dollars for her thesis...ha