Support: according to my narcissistic EX

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hadenough

hadenough

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So I find out that the F.R.O. does not yet have my final Court Order. It's been 6 weeks since the judgment was "released." It doesn't help that ex is self-employed. Were he employed at a regular job (for lack of a better description), I could have sent FRO the order myself. Turns out that submissions for costs are being made, (my side was awarded costs), ex's lawyer is sitting on the whole issue (there IS a deadline) likely until the last day that he has, to "respond" with an offer to settle, I would presume. So the order is NOT w/FRO and when FRO does get it: it will take "6-12 weeks" for them to process it. In the meantime, generous ex (yes - that's sarcasm) has continued to make "voluntary" $350/month CS pymts. The ORDER however now states: (I'm changing the exact figures, just slightly): **$700 for CS. $400 for SS, and $200/mo to address the arrears (going back to the date of application to court, which was 2008). SO; this month, he decided to mail a chq (a day late, as usual) for the "new" ordered CS amount, **$700. I do not speak to him, EVER - and aside from sending my lawyer a quick email, I did not respond (text/email) to this offering. I know that the message is: "I'm not paying anything other than the CS" - but aside from that - I don't know what to make of this. I suppose when this finally does get processed by the FRO, I can drag him back into Court for breaching the order (?) - this/HE is SO annoying. The whole matter has been a nightmare. The Judge sat on releasing this decision for several months (and for no good reason) and the sequence of events has almost destroyed me, in more ways than financially. I feel this court and all the by-products of it, are never-ending. His sole purpose (and his sleaze lawyer) on this Earth is to cause havoc and destruction. His new wife is his next victim. A total ditz, but I must admit: I do pity the fool and the young family they have started together. Anyway, what GIVES - sending PART of the ordered amount?! Before any bleedng hearts jump out and say "maybe that's all he can afford.." Just know; he's NOT hurting for money. This is a sick, twisted mind game, I'm fairly certain. Just wanted some different perspectives on this. Thanks!
 
Child support a right of the child from the date of separation so arrears are automatic.

Spousal support requires that you establish entitlement and amount, it is not automatic and there are not always retroactive awards. If you were awarded spousal support for a limited time, say 5 years (just an example) then the court order would state payment for 5 years and it would start with the court order.

This might not always be true depending on the circumstance but it would often be true.

Your ex is very likely following his lawyer's advice and adhearing to what what will be in the court order. The order will state that spousal support is to begin on the date of the order and last until xx-xx-xxxx. If he pays spousal now, it would be in addition to the order.

That's my take on it, but of course the order may be worded otherwise.
 
Thanks, Mess. Yes its very clear in the order - SS was granted for a 5 year period (effective til 2013) and open to re-application at that time. The order was 23 pgs long c/w the SSAG and Divorcemate Calculations. His income was imputed - and the pymt order portion was 3 part. CS, SS and retro to 2008. (Just under 27g - payable @$200/month). How generous of the judge to give I'm the 13 year plan.
 
P.S. - all 3 amounts were ordered to commence from the date of application in 2008. It was very specifically worded respective to all three entitlements.
 
Hope this reads ok - not really doing all that great today.

Ignorance on my part?????? 31/2 years ago you started, the order goes back to that date and in theory will end on the fith year baring reapplication for SS. But in 1-1/2 years the 5 will be up. SS will stop and by then the $200 a month will have wittled the 27K down some 4K. 23K left on the back order. SS stops because the fifth year is up and since the 5 year support order starts in the third year.....possibly close to the fifth and at five years SS stops???

With the back order not fullfilled would there not be a call to increase the rate of the arrears so it will not take 13 years to pay back? I guess he needs to live but I must be missing something - the woman isn't a walking bank account either? Just appears to be not quite right - three years to start but it is like these people will be barely out of the court system and they will be back in there in - when the fifth year rolls around the corner? (I assume this is where they will be headed?

Guess there really isn't a question - more a statement of ???????
 
If the order is going to be handled through FRO, he's a moron for paying you anything at all.

Here' why....the FRO is notorious for NOT counting any payments made in the interim. If there was entitlement established and numbers set, AND it's indicated to go through FRO...he should be paying you NOTHING directly.

It's best practice, and his lawyer may have advised him of such, to pay the FRO directly. They are going to go after him for the arrears, INCLUDING ANY ACCUMULATED post order anyway.

So things may not always be as they seem. It is not uncommon for a "final order" to not be immediately forthcoming. If there is a final order, there should be nothing to settle, so not sure why you'd be waiting on that.

The order was made in court, so you are waiting for it to be created (here in NB one side's lawyer will usually offer to do this and submit to the court for signature), then the judge receives it, review it and rubber stamps it.

THEN both lawyer are sent a copy AND the clerk's office has the original filed. Your lawyer would usually give you a copy of it. BUT you can go and have the clerk photocopy it for a fee if it's quicker for you.
 
NBDad said:
If the order is going to be handled through FRO, he's a moron for paying you anything at all.

Here' why....the FRO is notorious for NOT counting any payments made in the interim. If there was entitlement established and numbers set, AND it's indicated to go through FRO...he should be paying you NOTHING directly.
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THIS. After many of FRO's highly-publicized, repeatedly documented mess of a "system" they've got going on, i'm surprised that anyone is still willing to go through FRO at all, whether they be the payor or recipient.
 
Exquizique said:
THIS. After many of FRO's highly-publicized, repeatedly documented mess of a "system" they've got going on, i'm surprised that anyone is still willing to go through FRO at all, whether they be the payor or recipient.
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My understanding was that it's not optional. :( They handle ALL court ordered support payments. I thought the only way around it was to avoid court.
 
CSAngel said:
My understanding was that it's not optional. :( They handle ALL court ordered support payments. I thought the only way around it was to avoid court.
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Yes, once it goes through court it becomes the "default" mechanism to channel support payments. However, i do believe that there's a way to "withdraw" from FRO handling the support payments, with both parties signing more documents indicating their consent and such ... don't know too much about it as i've never looked into it that carefully. I have heard about it though, perhaps someone here can validate/disconfirm ...
 
Exquizique said:
Yes, once it goes through court it becomes the "default" mechanism to channel support payments. However, i do believe that there's a way to "withdraw" from FRO handling the support payments, with both parties signing more documents indicating their consent and such ... don't know too much about it as i've never looked into it that carefully. I have heard about it though, perhaps someone here can validate/disconfirm ...
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I think you're right on that - however, chances are that if you've been through court then the parties are not agreeable and the chance of getting both to consent to NOT going through FRO would be slim to none. :)
 
CSAngel said:
I think you're right on that - however, chances are that if you've been through court then the parties are not agreeable and the chance of getting both to consent to NOT going through FRO would be slim to none. :)
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Very true, unfortunately. Just another example of how people inadvertently screw each other over simply by not willing to be mature, civil and reasonable adults ...
 
The FRO is automatic once there's an order. Whether its by a judge or a separation agreement that's been hammered out. Parties must "opt out" of FRO. Both parties. Otherwise, FRO is automatically involved. It would be great to not have to deal w/them but when there's situations like mine: I need all the "enforcement" I can get. I called FRO (re: his latest pymt) - they said to cash it. I'm not anywhere in their system. Nor is he (the ex). YET. Once we are: THEN I am not to take any monies from him directly. Also, to Mess: the courts go back to the date of APPLICATION, as to do otherwise would provide an incentive for parties to hold off on commencing proceedings (and thereby accumulating more arrears). This was specifically mentioned in the Judgment I rec'd. We separated in 2007. My application in court was Sep/08. All amts now ordered payable go back only to the APPLICATION date. The F.R.O.'s website explains how it all works. For example, parties can "opt out" and then down the road, one party may wish to re-involve them. This is possible and ofcourse, for a fee: I believe it's $50 or thereabouts. They re-open the file.. Start the "process" and you wait...
 
hadenough said:
The FRO is automatic once there's an order. Whether its by a judge or a separation agreement that's been hammered out. Parties must "opt out" of FRO. Both parties. Otherwise, FRO is automatically involved. It would be great to not have to deal w/them but when there's situations like mine: I need all the "enforcement" I can get. I called FRO (re: his latest pymt) - they said to cash it. I'm not anywhere in their system. Nor is he (the ex). YET. Once we are: THEN I am not to take any monies from him directly.
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Ah yes, so there is an option to opt out, that's good to know.

If FRO was to be in the position to actually carry out their mandate the way it was intended to be, then i have no arguments with FRO being the enforcing party, especially for high conflict cases and cases with a history of non-payment. However, with the way things are with FRO right now, until they get their internal affairs in order i can tell you that sadly, if you are in the "unlucky" majority of recipients you are not going to get the "enforcement" you think you will get from FRO. Is there a need for an agency/body like FRO? Absolutely. But with the way things are right now, i would say that unless it's extreme circumstances of ridiculous conflict bewteen the two parties and willful/malicious evasion of responsibilities from the payor, then it's simply not worth the grief, stress and frustration to go through FRO if there's even a chance of some sort of alternative arrangement for payment being made. All i can say is that i work in the government, and the mess that is FRO is pretty ... horrific, even for government. There's unlikely going to be any improvements on FRO's end for a good many years yet.
 
hadenough said:
The FRO is automatic once there's an order. Whether its by a judge or a separation agreement that's been hammered out. ..
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Incorrect. Straight from the FRO website:

When an Ontario court makes a support order, it also issues a support deduction order. The support deduction order is sent to the FRO and is automatically registered.

When a domestic contract has been filed with the court, the payor or recipient may choose to register it with the FRO.

To register a domestic contract with the FRO you must:

•File the domestic contract, or paternity agreement, with the Ontario Court of Justice or Superior Court of Justice (Family Court) along with an Affidavit for Filing.

•Mail a copy of the domestic contract, or paternity agreement along with a copy of the affidavit and a completed registration package to the FRO.

Once that information has been received the domestic contract is registered.
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It sucks to hear that FRO can be so inept. Its such an important service and to know it is so flawed is truly upsetting. My situation IS very high conflict. I cannot imagine having to deal with him directly. I will have to take my chances with the FRO as the alternative, for me is far far worse. My ex is controlling and abusive. We cannot speak to eachother at all and it's best that way. I'm hoping FRO will be the best route for me. I have no other option.
 
Hello Hammerdad: yes. That's true. Individuals CAN file their domestic contracts. My point was that any order from Trial or Pre-trial done through court/lawyers resulting in an ORDER, goes to FRO. Domestic contracts without counsel can be submitted as far as I know yes, but that would mean the party/parties personally sent the "agreement" to the FRO. In my case: I had trial. There was a reserved judgment. That judgment was released in Sept. It is the Judge's Final Order. All 23 glorious pages of it. Signed and Sealed.
 
hadenough said:
Hello Hammerdad: yes. That's true. Individuals CAN file their domestic contracts. My point was that any order from Trial or Pre-trial done through court/lawyers resulting in an ORDER, goes to FRO. Domestic contracts without counsel can be submitted as far as I know yes, but that would mean the party/parties personally sent the "agreement" to the FRO. In my case: I had trial. There was a reserved judgment. That judgment was released in Sept. It is the Judge's Final Order. All 23 glorious pages of it. Signed and Sealed.
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Alright, but you have to be more concise. You stated:

[/quote] or a separation agreement that's been hammered out. [/quote]

Which was what I was pointing out as incorrect as they are not automatically registered with FRO even if they are registered with the courts.
 
I believe the Ontario Ombudsman would field/review any FRO-related concerns. I will definitely be jumping on any bandwagon I can if there is a problem for me (with FRO). I have a couple of friends who recv their CS payments through the FRO and they are, for the most part, satisfied. There have been a couple of issues, but nothing that wasn't dealt with once it was brought to their attention. I hate hearing that the FRO is not all that I'd heard about it. I really have no other hope for enforcement.
 
Support: according to my narcissistic EX

CSAngel said:
I think you're right on that - however, chances are that if you've been through court then the parties are not agreeable and the chance of getting both to consent to NOT going through FRO would be slim to none. :)
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I totally agree with you. Most couple who get along and consent, are usually not in Court dealing with support. Most Judges will write in court orders for payments to go to FRO, with most legal counsels agreeing especially if representing the recipient. It is very difficult to obtain support payments and arrears from the payor without having to involve the Courts, and FRO. We all know FRO is far from being perfect!
 
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