Stock Equity

Fighting:

Like I said previously, we had 3 issues. We settled on 2 out of the 3 and I am perfectly willing to settle on the 3rd...I just know that its not going to happen. This nest egg that he considers his is literally his entire raison d'etre...he's almost psychotic about it. So he's being incredibly unreasonable to try to scare me into an unreasonable settlement.

He's used aggressive tactics designed to scare me all along. It hasn't worked but when all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. He never understood that the best tactic to use with me is being docile not aggressive.

We're not talking about us having a small difference in how we're calculating here. Its night and day... He wants to double dip accounts. He wants to include accounts going into marriage and exclude them at the separation date. That's how the accounts were even discovered in the first place. He had told me during our marriage that he had lost the money...which I believed.

At this point, he's basically revealed the accounts exist but refuses to disclose the valuation date balances.

Now put yourself in my shoes. I made one blind offer to settle that I know was wayyyyy under what he will owe me at trial. He not only disregarded it, he came back telling me that I owe him money. The differences between our assets and lifestyles is clearly evident..and that's fine, he's entitled to live however he wants to....but I clearly do not owe him money. He has every retirement account we had in marriage...I have none...zero...and I worked full-time for over 20 years in a profession requiring a degree, training and large amounts of travel away from my children.

That sound right to you?

I realize that the golden rule is that its always better to settle and its almost always true...EXCEPT...in my case.

I will not do any worse at trial...even if I DON'T pick up costs with the numbers I already have...forget about the biggest undisclosed accounts that he's trying to keep to himself.

I'd like to have the mindset that its about our overall costs together and we're both taking money away from our children because on one hand, that's very true. But the reality is that when I can't pay my legal bill...when I can't retire...when I can't pay my kid's tuition...my ex won't be feeling that since he's sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars in assets. On the contrary, he'd very much enjoy watching me go bankrupt.

Its not in my best interest to negotiate with a terrorist...and I'm going to negotiate in my best interest. There's nothing unjust or unfair in what I'm asking for.
 
Fighting:
But the reality is that when I can't pay my legal bill...when I can't retire...when I can't pay my kid's tuition...my ex won't be feeling that since he's sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars in assets. On the contrary, he'd very much enjoy watching me go bankrupt.

I lost every cent, every stick of furniture, every possession that I had in my entire adult life. I lived out of my backpack with friends and family. The ONLY thing I have of value is my job which pays decently.

Which she has been collecting most of, while working under the table, collecting government and disability benefits. It would slightly inconvenience my ex if I were to put a gun in my mouth one day unless she was able to collect 100% of all my life insurance.

She never had any accountability for her actions because her millionaire family paid all of her legal bills. She got to keep everything because when we were married she had control of the finances. At separation and divorce she simply moved all of the money into her family's accounts and lied her ass off about it.

Sometimes you lose.
 
Believe me, I have training in risk management.

There's no doubt that I might end up worse off. When you go into court, nothing is out of the realm of possibilities.

However, my ex has helped to stack the balance of probabilities in my favor to do better than me having to pay him money. If it happens, I will gladly live with the consequences. For me, its better than going into my future wishing that I had stood up to his b.s. and threats.

Yes sometimes you lose...but that doesn't negate the fact that there may be value in choosing to try to defend yourself against a villian. If I lose, I'm prepared to deal with it.
 
PH, Don't let anyone discourage you from doing what you know is right. I'm in a long-term marriage myself, 44 years to be exact, and I left him almost 2 years ago. If I had not left him, I believe that I would be dead by now.

Very shortly before leaving, I discovered a very large amount of cash that my stbx and I had thought was lost..more than $16,000. I could easily have spent it, goodness I certainly needed it. Even though I knew he was being very dishonest with reporting his assets, I chose to report that $16,000. As a result, it has been added to my assets. I feel I did the right thing.

There are those who would disparage us, accuse us of being greedy and vindictive. Even family and friends will rip you apart...all to the satisfaction of the stbx. I don't let these people faze me one bit. You can see this very plainly on this board. I just ignore their posts and I can truthfully say that I haven 't read one disparaging comment about me for months. I know who these people are. They are not worthy of my replies, never mind even reading them. Good, constructive advice given in a gracious manner is worthy of our attention. Being criticized in a harsh way, generated by bitter people, is not even worthy of our consideration.

You did very well in answering your not so kind critics, but sometimes it is best to just let things be and continue doing what you know is right. These peoples' comments are coloured by their own hostile and vindictive thoughts in so many cases.

It's just a real shame that people confuse courageous and ethical women with being greedy and vindictive. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your children.
 
Hi Caranna:

I somewhat understand the criticism because there are many cases...non gender specific where people are vindictive and greedy. And there are a lot of ex-spouses on this forum who have been cruelly treated by the family law process. I get that...and I understand if you're a victim of that and its ongoing and you have no recourse, its tough and you see every (female) litigant fighting back as potentially vindictive.

So I listen to the comments but I also know that I'm doing the right thing. More importantly, I have no recourse...I've been dragged through this process from the very beginning and nothing has changed except that my ex's lies have caught up with him. My first priority was to preserve my right to be a mother...my second priority is to ensure that I pursue an equitable share of the assets that I contributed to in good faith in my marriage by working and handing over my paycheck.

This upcoming trial is the first time in the history of our battle that I'm actually looking forward to the date because its going to mean that the main battle is over. My ex has had almost 3 years to simply follow the rules, like I did, and we could have settled and been done...but since he's chosen to lie, there's no doubt that I'm hoping it catches up with him.

Those that would call that vindictive have a right to their opinion. But trust me, those negative opinions won't keep me up at night. I KNOW I'm doing what's best for me and my children. I'm hardly going to apologize to anyone for standing up for myself. I wish I had done it a long time ago.

Caranna, you have my best wishes too. I know you're a truthful, good person and you understand what its like dealing with this situation. Thank you.
 
Keep it up PH it appears you are doing everything you need to do in a cool and calm manner. It truly is scary when a relationship ends and you really start to find all the deception you were oblivious too because of trust.

Keep making offers based on the new information you find. You may not find it all and you need to be constantly doing your cost/benefit analysis. That's the one thing I have learned about liars is they cannot keep it up eventually their life becomes so muddy even they cannot know the truth and they start to believe their own lies.

The great thing for you is he is lying about money. Money has a paper trial and is very black and white.

I wish you the best of luck in getting your fair share.
 
Thank you FB.

I'm well aware that I won't find it all...nor do I care.

The issue is that the biggest account, I knew nothing about...and never would have....except that my ex tried to count it towards his assets at marriage valuation date, then removed it at the separation date. That's how he got caught. I wasn't not digging into his financial data at all. I didn't look at anything until he data dumped my lawyer with a load of crap pre-settlement conference to try to pull a fast one. My lawyer had to spend hours and hours going through this stuff and I have to pay for that. But that action is his undoing...and if that isn't karma, I don't know what is.

He did it because he wants to pay me zero. His lawyer walks up to us pre-SC to inform me that I owe my ex money but they'll (and I quote) "Throw me a bone" and settle at $0.

I work hard...always have but I struggle every month. I have zero retirement savings after working for over 20 years because my ex said I was an idiot with money. So I agreed to him taking the bulk his paychecks and using most of it to save for retirement and me paying all the household bills. When he told me during the early 2000's that he had lost much of our money due to failing U.S. market...which is where our money was...I believed him. He constantly told me and our kids that we didn't have much money. When our oldest daughter got accepted to a very good university, we sent her to the local university because we couldn't afford to send her to the more expensive one she got accepted to. Meanwhile, that same year, he traded over 100k in stock and contributed somewhere around 25k to his own undisclosed RRSP account.

I made my ex a very reasonable and fair offer BEFORE I found out about the other 2 major accounts (we're talking about a LOT of money in those two accounts...they're the bulk of our assets). I probably would have never found out about the other money had he not gotten greedy and revealed the double valuation dips.

All he had to do was accept that offer. Or...he could have mediated our divorce in the first place like I asked. I would have never known and we could have saved tens of thousands in legal fees and a brutal custody review which took a lot of toll on me and our child.

He's chosen his path. He's done nothing but try to bully, control and threaten me through this process. And again, I'm not angry but I am resolved. My lawyer is wonderful and pushed a trial date to finally get this over with...otherwise, he would have stalled as long as he could have.

Again, avoiding trial is completely in my ex's hands. He can accomplish it anytime he wants...all he has to do is pull his account statements (could be done in a couple hours) and make me a reasonable offer...believe me, I'd sign it if it was fair. I want to be divorced badly.

Again thank you FB and Caranna for the encouragement...and actually, thanks to the posters that criticized me too. When someone does that on here, it always helps me to double-check my thought process and make sure that I haven't stepped over the line and I'm not acting out of anger or vengence.
 
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Make sure you provide him a new offer and make sure that it states the old offer is no longer valid...unless you are still willing to live with that offer. Technically if you have not withdrawn that offer he could accept it tomorrow and you couldn't do much about it.
 
I can't provide a new offer because I don't have disclosure on the undisclosed accounts.

My understanding was that settlement offers basically expired after a day or two when they are ignored.
 
I can't provide a new offer because I don't have disclosure on the undisclosed accounts.

My understanding was that settlement offers basically expired after a day or two when they are ignored.

Well you can't make an offer that reflects what he hasn't disclosed.

But you can make an offer that represents your estimated guess.
 
I can't provide a new offer because I don't have disclosure on the undisclosed accounts.

My understanding was that settlement offers basically expired after a day or two when they are ignored.

You could make an offer based on your most recent guesses. Maybe he'll accept it now that he knows you know more than he wanted you to, and fears you'll blab it to a judge.

I'm not so sure about that ignoring meaning expiring assumption. I've seen posts about offers explicitly including expiry times, so not having one spelled out might make it still valid. You may want to make sure!
 
Downtrodden:

I can't estimate a guess.

You'd have to see what he provided. There are a couple years that he provided two different tax returns where he'd basically have one listing 150k in stock trades on his IRA schedule C...then same year...only 30k in stock trades (and that's just for the stocks he actually moved around that year). I have no idea which one is valid or that he sent to the IRA. He hasn't provided any statement for that account and its about 15 years old...so I have no way to tell what the balance might be upon separation date.

There's also no way to tell what's in the other undisclosed account.

I have requested that my lawyer puts in the request to his for the additional documents. I just have very little confidence that he will provide them. The SC judge sympathized with my inability to settle the case based on the lack of data last week, as I made that statement to him so he admonished my ex for his lack of disclosure. However, he's been admonished many times and nothing has changed.

That's probably why I sounded a little gleeful about going to trial in my earlier posts. I have a feeling its going to be the first time that my ex thumbing his nose at the disclosure process is going to catch up with him and I admit, I'm looking forward to that.
 
You could make an offer based on your most recent guesses.

I really don't have a guess....there's so much missing and deceptive information in what he dumped on my lawyer. Ie, he gave her every trade he made between 1999 and 2000 and then nothing else. So there's 10 years that I have nothing for except a couple years of shady tax returns. And honestly, I'm not going to try to guess...why should I? I provided my disclosures over 2 years ago and he has a responsibility to disclose his. He has weeks to do so before trial. He can log on to his computer and pull account statements in less than 30 minutes.

I'm not so sure about that ignoring meaning expiring assumption. I've seen posts about offers explicitly including expiry times, so not having one spelled out might make it still valid. You may want to make sure!

I've sent an email (to have a record) and put in a call to my lawyer. I'll make sure its done.
 
I really don't have a guess....there's so much missing and deceptive information in what he dumped on my lawyer. Ie, he gave her every trade he made between 1999 and 2000 and then nothing else. So there's 10 years that I have nothing for except a couple years of shady tax returns. And honestly, I'm not going to try to guess...why should I? I provided my disclosures over 2 years ago and he has a responsibility to disclose his. He has weeks to do so before trial. He can log on to his computer and pull account statements in less than 30 minutes.



I've sent an email (to have a record) and put in a call to my lawyer. I'll make sure its done.

My offers all stated that they remained open until 1 minute after the start of court dealing with the issues in the offer.

My understanding is you cannot use this to support a request for costs unless the offer remains open until court.

Tayken has posted the rules on offers many times.
 
Here you go

Courts of Justice Act - O. Reg. 114/99

You will not is states that an offer is still open even if rejected.


RULE 18: OFFERS TO SETTLE

DEFINITION

18. (1) In this rule,
“offer” means an offer to settle one or more claims in a case, motion, appeal or enforcement, and includes a counter-offer. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (1).
APPLICATION

(2) This rule applies to an offer made at any time, even before the case is started. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (2).
MAKING AN OFFER

(3) A party may serve an offer on any other party. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (3).
OFFER TO BE SIGNED BY PARTY AND LAWYER

(4) An offer shall be signed personally by the party making it and also by the party’s lawyer, if any. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (4).
WITHDRAWING AN OFFER

(5) A party who made an offer may withdraw it by serving a notice of withdrawal, at any time before the offer is accepted. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (5).
TIME-LIMITED OFFER

(6) An offer that is not accepted within the time set out in the offer is considered to have been withdrawn. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (6).
OFFER EXPIRES WHEN COURT BEGINS TO GIVE DECISION

(7) An offer may not be accepted after the court begins to give a decision that disposes of a claim dealt with in the offer. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (7).
CONFIDENTIALITY OF OFFER

(8) The terms of an offer,
(a) shall not be mentioned in any document filed in the continuing record; and
(b) shall not be mentioned to the judge hearing the claim dealt with in the offer, until the judge has dealt with all the issues in dispute except costs. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (8).
ACCEPTING AN OFFER

(9) The only valid way of accepting an offer is by serving an acceptance on the party who made the offer, at any time before,
(a) the offer is withdrawn; or
(b) the court begins to give a decision that disposes of a claim dealt with in the offer. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (9).
OFFER REMAINS OPEN DESPITE REJECTION OR COUNTER-OFFER

(10) A party may accept an offer in accordance with subrule (9) even if the party has previously rejected the offer or made a counter-offer. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (10).
COSTS NOT DEALT WITH IN OFFER

(11) If an accepted offer does not deal with costs, either party is entitled to ask the court for costs. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (11).
COURT APPROVAL, OFFER INVOLVING SPECIAL PARTY

(12) A special party may make, withdraw and accept an offer, but another party’s acceptance of a special party’s offer and a special party’s acceptance of another party’s offer are not binding on the special party until the court approves. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (12).
FAILURE TO CARRY OUT TERMS OF ACCEPTED OFFER

(13) If a party to an accepted offer does not carry out the terms of the offer, the other party may,
(a) make a motion to turn the parts of the offer within the court’s jurisdiction into an order; or
(b) continue the case as if the offer had never been accepted. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (13).
COSTS CONSEQUENCES OF FAILURE TO ACCEPT OFFER

(14) A party who makes an offer is, unless the court orders otherwise, entitled to costs to the date the offer was served and full recovery of costs from that date, if the following conditions are met:
1. If the offer relates to a motion, it is made at least one day before the motion date.
2. If the offer relates to a trial or the hearing of a step other than a motion, it is made at least seven days before the trial or hearing date.
3. The offer does not expire and is not withdrawn before the hearing starts.
4. The offer is not accepted.
5. The party who made the offer obtains an order that is as favourable as or more favourable than the offer. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (14).
COSTS CONSEQUENCES — BURDEN OF PROOF

(15) The burden of proving that the order is as favourable as or more favourable than the offer to settle is on the party who claims the benefit of subrule (14). O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (15).
COSTS — DISCRETION OF COURT

(16) When the court exercises its discretion over costs, it may take into account any written offer to settle, the date it was made and its terms, even if subrule (14) does not apply. O. Reg. 114/99, r. 18 (16).
 
Pursuinghappiness,

If I were you, I would file a motion asking for a very specific order for disclosure. Ask for specific statements for the specific accounts for the date of marriage and the date of separation.

You could also ask for an order for a financial audit, if you think there are other accounts that have not been disclosed.

The Judge will grant your motion and make an order for him to disclose that information in 30 days.

If he doesn't, he will be in contempt of court, and frankly, he will be screwed.

If you get that order on motion, in all likelihood, the games will stop and he will comply. If he doesn't comply, you will be in a very strong position.

While I am not a fan of motions as they are expensive and aggressive. In your case, it may even allow you to avoid a trial.

One other thought, you could make any offer to settle based upon a stated percentage of gains in accounts etc. I would NOT make an offer to settle based upon a "guess".
 
If I were you, I would file a motion asking for a very specific order for disclosure. Ask for specific statements for the specific accounts for the date of marriage and the date of separation.

I've had 3 of these motions. He adjourned two...changed lawyers, didn't show up, said he couldn't get the info...etc. He "complied" eventually by sending a data dump of crap to my lawyer that she spent hours sorting through...including partial tax returns, stacks of stock sale slips from 10 years before we were married, internet print outs of balances on accounts that were at neither valuation date, etc.

We also had questioning. So he was already under oath swearing his financial statement and had a list of undertakings to provide..which he ignored leading to the 3 motions. He blamed that on lawyer #2 (who fired him as a client) and said that that lawyer told him not to send in the documents.

You could also ask for an order for a financial audit, if you think there are other accounts that have not been disclosed.

This is my next step. I'm going in to ask my lawyer for exactly this next week.

The Judge will grant your motion and make an order for him to disclose that information in 30 days.

If he doesn't, he will be in contempt of court, and frankly, he will be screwed.

If you get that order on motion, in all likelihood, the games will stop and he will comply. If he doesn't comply, you will be in a very strong position.

Frankly, that hasn't happened. He's gotten away with deception this entire time...that's why posters accused me of sounding "vindictive" when I say I'm actually looking forward to trial...but for me, its the first time that he might actually get called on his crap.

One other thought, you could make any offer to settle based upon a stated percentage of gains in accounts etc. I would NOT make an offer to settle based upon a "guess".

As I stated before, if you saw the data that I have...there is ZERO way that I can even make a guess about what the financials are. I will not put another offer in based on no factual information about our largest assets. I made that same statement to the SC judge and he agreed then asked him to supply more information...I got the endorsement for that.

However, the chances of him providing the information is almost nil. He hasn't complied with anything to-date. He has complete disdain for the entire process and thinks he can decide what to exclude. He has next week to comply or the following week my laywer will start preparing my trial brief.

I feel at this point that aside from a potential motion for a forensic accountant on my ex's dime...I'm out of options legally to compel disclosure and will have to take my chances at trial.
 
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