state of mind

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applemuffin

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My common-law husband and I recently separated. We have one child who is 2, we own our home jointly and we have two cars, both in his name. His offer to me is that he stay in the family home, remortgage the house to include the debt on one car and then he would give me that car. Custody would be 50/50, no child support and we’d split child expenses 50/50. He knows I don’t want either car and that there is no rental accommodation near our house, school and daycare so I’d have to either buy or move out of the area. He is trying his hardest to ensure I don’t get one dime from our house.

In our situation, we agreed that no child support would be paid by either party because while I do make more than him (about $15,000) and his family is in a position to assist him financially whereas mine is not. Even if that did change I'm looking at only paying about $100/month anyway.

The reason why I'm not arguing over who gets the house is because even though I make more than he does, I can't afford the house myself with or without the addition of a car payment. I put together a budget so he’d see what the bills are but it shows he’d be in a monthly deficit of $1500 per month. He is not concerned about this, and along with a few other indicators, (mild alcohol abuse and depression) prompts me to question his mental state. I can understand wanting to screw me out of something, but to screw our son and to the point where he would go heavily into debt and lose the family home?! He looked at me blankly when I asked him where he thought I would live and care for our child with no money for a down payment and no affordable rentals nearby. So you get the house and Baby and I live in the car?

But, this is the same man who paid $200/month parking because he refuses to take the bus to work downtown (it's gross and dirty) but it's ok for his newborn with a developing immune system to ride it.

His state of mind has me very concerned to the point where I am reconsidering our custody and child support agreement at least temporarily. Meaning I'd be primary and we could revisit in several months to a year his suitability and mental state as a parent. This will not go over well. For the sake of our son, I am willing to work with him to get him to a point where we could then return to our original agreement of 50/50 custody and no child support paid.

I’m not sure how to handle this. Any thoughts?
 
Your budget may not be accurate as he may make the necessary arrangements to live within his means. How he maintains his finances and lifestyle are not of your concern. You mentioned he has family willing to help him out. You may not be privy to what, if any, arrangements he has made with his family.

So you get the house and Baby and I live in the car?
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In the situation provided, you would be provided with a car, free and clear of debt. You said he is trying to keep you from receiving any money from the house, but his assuming the loan for the car and putting it into the house is effectively giving you money from the house. So your argument there isn't quite true as you could easily sell the car and take the money from that.

You didn't say what if any equity is in the house. If there is only about $40k in equity, you would each get $20k, and if the car is worth ~$20k he is offering you a fair settlement.

He also doesn't get the baby. You will each have the child half of the time. I am not sure why you assume he has the child when it is an equal offering or time.

The issue with the bus system is moot. If you choose not to drive the car and take the bus, it isn't your ex causing you do so. You have options, and you chose the bus.

Your only other option is refuse his offer and force the sale of the house. However, you may succeed in forcing the sale, but if he has made you a reasonable offer to buy you out, you could be hit with his legal fees. Or, if he has made a reasonable offer, and you take him to court, the court could order you to take his offer and you may be hit with his legal fees. It just depends if his offer is reasonable or not.

What he pays for parking is his choice. I hate public transit also and will not take it unless absolutely necessary. I really can't see anything in your post that would cause me to question his mental state.
 
Here is the harsh answer:

Mind your own business, you can't afford the house, so move out and find somewhere else to live. Get your equity out of the house and split all common debts equally. Stick to the 50/50 custody. Pay child support based on income and set off method and adjust it yearly.

It is not your place to worry about how he does HIS finances, mind your own! Also, you are not in a position to take away his parenting - there is no reason he should not be equally involved in raising your child together.

Seriously, just live your live and leave him alone.
 
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HammerDad: They are not married and she is not legally responsible for his debt and the cars are in his name. If anything, she would be entitled to money from the car if she contributed to the payments.

Custody on the other hand is another matter. If he is asking for 50-50, you have to have proof he is unfit to request anything other then that. Just saying he is depressed and has alcohol issues doesn't make it true and it may not make a difference to a Judge. It needs to stand-up as proof, otherwise you will be the one that seems unreasonable.
 
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Pharah said:
HammerDad: They are not married and she is not legally responsible for his debt and the cars are in his name.
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Never suggested she was responsible for the debt, just that he was ensuring she received an assets free and clear of any encumbrances.

He is offering an asset with a fair market value of X in lieu of a payment of equity from the house. So long as the asset is equal to the amount of money should would be entitled to out of the house, she isn't losing out.
 
HammerDad, I appreciate your input and it has given me food for thought. However I will clarify a few points.

Billm, I don’t find that answer harsh because that is exactly what I am trying to do. I am giddy with anticipation of the moment when we are separate and I do not have to worry about him anymore.

The ONLY reason I am concerned with his finances is because it is crazy to think that you can live MINUS $1500 a month! The effect of the stress of struggling then losing the house will affect our child, THAT is my concern. He is brooding and very negative to begin with being short over a thousand dollars a month would certainly not help with that. If we were just separating, he can fill his boots with these notions. It’s my child’s welfare I am concerned with.

I have NOT said that I will take away his parenting, I have absolutely no intention of that and nowhere did I indicate that I would do that. I have been very clear with him that I will do whatever I can to facilitate a good and healthy relationship between him and our child. However, if he continues this nonsensical logic, for the sake of our child, he will not be getting 50/50 right away but will have to ease into it until he is back on track and proving this will not be an issue, he provides the evidence with which to do so regularly. I will do whatever I can to help him to get to that point.


Our budget is already at a point where we live at the bare minimum, other than a few movie channels there are few extras we enjoy. We do our best to live economically so when I drew up the budget for him, it was with little room to move in that area. You are right to suggest that I have no knowledge of any arrangements he may have with his family (he tells me there are none) but you have to admit that when a person shrugs at being short $1500 per month that’s concerning. And I feel that I know his family well enough to know that they would not support the lifestyle he is leading me to believe he will have.

The car he is trying to give me is worth barely $6,000 and is depreciating in value. It’s also in his name and therefore nothing to do with me as we are common-law. I already pay for 55% of the car payments and other bills as I have for the duration of our relationship because I make 55% percent of the money. The reason the loan is $20,000 is because it has negative debt from his previous car. Forgive me if I find it insulting that he wants to keep our house only to be given a car worth a fraction of the house which will appreciate the same $6000 in a matter of months. So no, it’s not an even trade, car for equity in the house. If that were the case, I’d have nothing to say. I’ve lived my life trying to be fair and equitable and am treating this situation no differently.

The comment about the bus system was to show that he can be selfish and not put his child first. I do not have a problem taking it as I have ridden it daily for well over a decade. Why is it ok for his baby to ride the ‘germ-mobile’ and not him?

I really can't see anything in your post that would cause me to question his mental state.
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How about not caring where or how his child will live when in my care or my personal favorite of thinking that it’s ok to have a monthly budget of minus $1500 which has its own set of consequences that will directly effect the health and well being of our child? As parents we have a responsibility to ensure the safety of our children.

I have always found it interesting that most people seem to forget that yes, we are all trying to be reasonable while splitting up but there are very good reasons why we do so! This man is very negative, abuses alcohol, is depressed, emotionally abusive and manipulative. The easier I can make this on all of us, the better.
 
Welcome to separation and divorce where one of the many negative consequences is that it costs more to maintain two homes than it does to maintain one.
 
AppleMuffin: Custody is not up to you to decide. It is his right and can only be DECIDED on my a judge. He does not have to ease into parenting his child because you don't like the decisions he is making. You need to MYOB. It's also not his business how you will provide for your child while he is in your care. That is your responsibility has a parent.
 
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applemuffin,

I don't think you're getting what the posters are saying - you say you hear the MYOB talk, but then go on to list all the things that he is thinking wrong, talk about his budget, and talk about how his poor financial decisions will effect your child so then you say you will not allow equal custody.

Custody is not up to you - he wants to raise the child equally, end of story. You are not in a position to judge him - it is his child too, let him be the best he can (we are all entitled to screw up our kids as our parents did us ;).

MYOB, MYOB, MYOB, ... get it? If it is his finances, his relationship with your child, his job, etc, - it is HIS BUSINESS!!!! Let it go!!
 
I hate to stereo type, however it appears there are many Mom's who feel they have the right to decide custody based on their own idea of best interest of the child, and there are many men who feel they must live with those decisions. My own current partner believes with out a doubt that children should remain with the Mom and "permit" liberal access, and is extremely against 50-50 for her own reasons. I share 50-50 and believe in it.

However the fact of the matter is one parent may not dicate custody.
 
wait a second..I get her point. If his budget is that far off, and he doesn't care, then he is not negotiating fairly. I don't agree that's a mental state thing, but she can't just accept this offer and walk away.

This woman has raised concerns about the long term care of her child. The father is obviously upset about the separation and is diggin in his heels. This sounds like a case for mediation, as both parents are on the right page (agreeing that 50/50 is best) but just can't get past the emotional issues of the relationship ending.

The father needs to realize that his lifestyle cannot be maintained as it is. If that means pushing for the sale of the house and proper equalization then that is what you need to ask for. Doesn't mean you can't come to some sort of agreement with him, but he needs to think long-term.
 
billiechic said:
wait a second..I get her point. If his budget is that far off, and he doesn't care, then he is not negotiating fairly. I don't agree that's a mental state thing, but she can't just accept this offer and walk away.

This woman has raised concerns about the long term care of her child. The father is obviously upset about the separation and is diggin in his heels. This sounds like a case for mediation, as both parents are on the right page (agreeing that 50/50 is best) but just can't get past the emotional issues of the relationship ending.

The father needs to realize that his lifestyle cannot be maintained as it is. If that means pushing for the sale of the house and proper equalization then that is what you need to ask for. Doesn't mean you can't come to some sort of agreement with him, but he needs to think long-term.
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He needs to do whatever the heck he wants and does not need to realize anything as far as she is concerned. It is simply none of her business, until it ACTUALLY effects the child. Maybe he can't get past the emotional issues of the relationship ending because SHE is not letting it end by telling him what to think/do and trying to control him. She needs to focus on herself.

His budget has nothing to do with 'negotiating fairly'. Custody, support and equity split are not part of that.

This does not mean that she should not get exactly what she is owed, she should pursue that and not accept anything else. But if he thinks he can afford the house, so be it - she should not involve herself in that.
 
I do agree with bill. If he overextends himself, fails miserably and ends up bankrupt, that is not for her to be judgmental about, it is not in her control and she is not entitled to an opinion. His life is now separated from hers.

On an interpersonal level, if he is feeling that she is being controlling, he will likely dig in his heels and insist on acting contrary just to be rebellious. It is immature and it doesn't help the kids, no, but that doesn't change human nature.

To applemuffin, I am not saying that you are being controlling, but I am saying your ex could perceive it that way. The message we give isn't always the message received.
 
Yes, I said they should do a proper equalization. From what she has posted it is unclear if his assuming the car loan and her receiving the car makes it equal. Maybe she can answer?

On paper, she has no right to protest his financial plans. In reality, she should be concerned. But I agree, there's not much she can do about it. The best she could hope for is that he doesn't get approval for the re-mortgage on his own.
 
Sorry for the disappearing act, I wanted to think about all your comments before replying. When I posted this thread, the purpose was to see who was being reasonable and if I was just being emotional about his stand. As a mother, I want to minimize the stress on my child during this difficult time.

Oddly, given the situation, we had a lovely Family Day and spent it together as a family playing, making cookies and even went for a chilly walk. It was nice to see that we can still come together for our son. We also talked some more and he agreed to go to the bank to see what shape he was in.

His visit to the bank told him that he cannot take the mortgage on his own without a cosigner so we will have to sell the house. (Strangely, I was sad for him when he told me this because he put so much work into it during the short time we’ve been in it.) His thoughts are that we sell the house and use the proceeds to pay off the car which he would then give to me and we’d split the remainder as well.

Regarding the car and house, the car is worth about $8,000, the loan on it is $19,000 and this gap will grow as the car depreciates. The house is worth about $300,000 and will easily appreciate in value about $10-20,000 a year for the next few years according to my real estate agent. It’s already grown $24,000 in 8 months. I’m no mathematician but this doesn’t seem too equal to me.

You’re right, it’s not my business how he handles his finances, and he can run himself into the ground all he likes. It’s the fact that this man will take out his frustrations on our child that bothers me. There was a comment that perhaps he is digging in his heels. That is a possibility but it is also how he goes though life in general and one big reason why we split up. That being said, I am certain that every one of you would share my frustration when you see the train wreck coming, especially a preventable one.

When it comes to custody, I do believe that 50/50 is the ideal. However, we all know that is just not the best for every situation. It would be best if each couple can discuss this and come to an agreement but often times they end up in a battle. I do have a tendency to come across very direct especially on topics I feel strongly about so I apologize for those who took me to be coming across as dictating how custody will be for our son. In reality, I talk with Daddy about this in a calm manner, expressing my thoughts and concerns. Sometimes I let him talk too. ;) He has never looked after our son for more than a few hours in a day and defers to me for everything, bathing, diapers, feeding etc. I know he can do it, but “needs help getting there” (his words, not mine). So when I say that his access would be deferred, I mean that he and I would come up with a plan to get him to 50/50. For example, I step back and let him handle more things at home even when I am there. Encourage him to take Baby to run errands and visit friends to build his confidence. (Both of these we have already started to do.) Once we are living separately, each week, he gets more and more time until he has our son every night each week. It might take a couple weeks to do this or it might take a couple months, whatever he needs to get there. From the stories I’ve heard, that’s a pretty good offer as we all know most of the time it’s a fight for dads to get the 50/50 never mind any support behind it. Which is a shame, because there are some pretty fantastic dads out there!


Thank you all for your comments, I do appreciate them!
 
What's going to happen to the house in the next few years depends on whose crystal ball you believe - yours, your real esate agent's, your ex's, whomvever. It is the real estate market that will dictate what will happen to the house value. You absolutely cannot rely or base your property settlement on what you think might happen to the value of the house in the future. That is irrelevant, so get that notion out of your head, like now.

Your assessment is that the house value has increased $24K in eight months. Is that your real estate agent talking? More importantly, does your STBX agree? Sadly, $17K of the $24K increase is going to go bye bye in real estate commissions on the sale. That equalizes the house to the car and the car loan a little more doesn't it?

The sad fact is that it neither of you will probably qualify on the mortgage by yourselves meaning that your separation will take both of you, and your child, out of the dream of home ownership.

What was that you were saying? "As a mother you want to minimize the stress on my child during this difficult time". (Don't you think he would also say "As a parent we want to minimize the stress on our child during this difficult time"?). I suggest you two think hard about finding a way to keep that home so that your child can remain attached to that which he is becoming familiar. Maybe a family member for either of you can step up and co-sign that mortgage. Otherwise you will both be in the rental market and will have to claw your way back to home ownership.

Overall, your property numbers, while big to most people, are jack s**t when it comes to the professional fees you will pay to mediators or lawyers if you can't work this out yourselves. So both of you need to dig in your heels, not to fight against each other, but to work together to preserve what you have - for your family's sake.

As to custody/access, shared parenting is the ideal way and it's great to see you acknowledge that. Try and find a way to park your tendancy to "come across very directly" and instead work with him to get him up to speed on the day to day parenting. Be patient, be very patient. He says he needs help getting him there, you say he has already started. That's fantastic. Keep it up.

The reality is that if both of you commit to getting him there, it won't take months. It will take one month, maybe less for him to get in the groove. Don't make the mistake of setting some lengthy ramping up period before 50/50 parenting is scheduled. I guarantee that if you try that after you split up, then you will just end up saying screw it and it will evolve into primary residence for you and every other weekend and one night a week for him. If you both want it, it can happen very soon. As in, before you live in separate homes. Make that your goal. THAT will be best for your son.

Your offer is good, but make 50/50 your schedule goal when you separate - not after.

And finally, it is not that tough a "fight" for child centred parents (not fathers, parents) to get 50/50 in court if they are committed, resourceful and full of love for their kids. So please, don't hang your hat on how good your offer to Dad is vs what you perceive is going on "out there". This isn't about comparing yourselves to the rest of the non-nuclear families out there. It's about what's best for your son!!!

Good luck to all of you :)
 
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You have discussed access but what about custody? Custody is about decision making and joint custody with or without co-parenting is being recommended in most cases unless a status quo has been established. You being primary care giver in a home where you and your ex both live is not primary or status quo.

I agree with DTTE, you have an unrealistic ramping up period. It will not take months to get into the 'swing of things'. New parents are expected to learn this in days before leaving the hospital!

It is clear in family law that both parents are equal and have the right to parent and make decisions, aka custody. You need a reason/agreement to be able take that right away and the possibility of disagreement is not a reason, it's an excuse.
 
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