Spousal Support Entitlement?

2

2young4this

New member
Lets say I was married for 15 years but cohabited for 17 years. We have both worked full time our entire marriage. We have 2 children aged 11 and 14. My salary is now much higher than my spouse. I make 124k and my spouse makes 44k. We will have 50/50 shared custody of the kids. We paid full time daycare our entire marriage other then when my spouse took 2 maternity leaves of 6 months. Here career was not put on hold to support my career in any way. I don't believe there is entitlement for compensatory SS. Is there automatic entitlement for non-compensatory SS. Does non-compensatory spousal support get awarded in the same way? Does it have the same value? Is the entitlement automatically 50% of the family disposable income?

Thanks..
 
2young4this said:
Lets say I was married for 15 years but cohabited for 17 years. We have both worked full time our entire marriage. We have 2 children aged 11 and 14. My salary is now much higher than my spouse. I make 124k and my spouse makes 44k. We will have 50/50 shared custody of the kids. We paid full time daycare our entire marriage other then when my spouse took 2 maternity leaves of 6 months. Here career was not put on hold to support my career in any way. I don't believe there is entitlement for compensatory SS. Is there automatic entitlement for non-compensatory SS. Does non-compensatory spousal support get awarded in the same way? Does it have the same value? Is the entitlement automatically 50% of the family disposable income?

Thanks..
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I have seen justices throw this out and I have seen Justices put a big target on people's heads like you. I see more of the justices who will not allow the entitlement.

Your best bet... Offer a 30,000 one-time payment of SS and a full release from that party for any future claim. 9-times-out-of-10 that is all you need to do.

30,000 is cheaper than the 80,000+ it will take you get through a trial where you may be a target or be successful...

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
Since we are talking spousal----I need advice.

My lawyer originally said I am entitled to spousal, then changed his mind. The offer to settle had a lump sum component to spousal-to the surprise of my lawyer.
Rule of 65 should apply to me:
20+ years married
carried on my own job and worked his practise as well
did divide the practise when sold--he se still works there

in working, working his practise, taking care of him with his mental illness issues---I had opportunity for advancement that was compromised the stresses of 2 jobs, ill husband and then the separation stress on top. I was on a "wait list" for promotion---

I lost pay, pension in retirement and the position. My lawyer says that too bad about that, you got part of the practise.

the ex made 3x my salary; but has reduced hours etc. so his income was above mine, but not to the degree in marriage.

I am now retired---so he gets his salary + part of my pension--and I get a reduced pension. He makes probably 5-6 times what I do in retirement ( and I retired 4 years after my actual retirement date)

How would the courts perceive this?

Although I didn't say this to my lawyer, there is an emotional cost seeing others get positions I could have had. There is a loss of self esteem.

Thoughts
 
There are 3 entitlements to spousal:
Compensatory: Sacrificed for the family
Non-Compensatory: She is broke
Contractual: You agreed to something you shouldn't have

The first COULD apply to you because if she was the parent picking up the kids when they were sick from school or chose a job more compatible with the kids that is grounds for spousal. Having shared custody is good as it cuts the legs off one of the basis of compensatory support. You need to improve that she didn't even do THOSE "smaller" things more than you.

Non-compensatory MIGHT (very unlikely) be used because she prob had a better standard of living with you and the judge can say that she needs SS just as a bridge to a lower life style but since she is already "autonomous" it will have an end date.

If I were you, I would offer spousal support with a FIXED end date, MONTHLY (so it is tax deductible). If you offer a lump sump you need to calculate for risk (i.e: you lose your job, lack of tax benefits, she gets paid more etc...)

[btw: I'm just somebody who reads a lot ]
 
2young4this said:
Lets say I was married for 15 years but cohabited for 17 years. We have both worked full time our entire marriage. We have 2 children aged 11 and 14. My salary is now much higher than my spouse. I make 124k and my spouse makes 44k. We will have 50/50 shared custody of the kids. We paid full time daycare our entire marriage other then when my spouse took 2 maternity leaves of 6 months. Here career was not put on hold to support my career in any way. I don't believe there is entitlement for compensatory SS. Is there automatic entitlement for non-compensatory SS. Does non-compensatory spousal support get awarded in the same way? Does it have the same value? Is the entitlement automatically 50% of the family disposable income?

Thanks..
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44K vs 124K is a pretty huge gap (even though you'll be paying a lot in CS). If your ex has been working full time for 15 years and still only makes 44K, I'm guessing she either has quite low skills and education or something else was going on. How would your ex tell the story? Would she point to anything at she did that facilitated your being able to earn the salary you've got? It doesn't have to be "putting a career on hold", it could be any number of career choices.

I think Tayken is right and you would be wise to settle this with a lump sum payment. I'm not saying that your ex really did sacrifice herself for the sake of your career, but I'm thinking with numbers like the ones above, she might be able to tell a persuasive story.
 
Just to add some more substance to this. My ex is after over $1500/month for 7 years for spousal. This is on top of the table amount for CS. As well I am giving up a half of my RRSP savings and half the equity in the house.
 
I think that you will be ordered to pay SS. My husband lived with his ex for 7.5 years, he took parental leave for second child, she did for first, his ex's carrier did not suffer due to the marriage, but the difference in their salaries was considerable, although less then in your case, it was $40 000 and $87 000 for him. They settled but on one of the conferences the judge suggested $500 for 4 years.

This is non compensatory ss, so that she can get used to live on lower income.
 
The basic With Child Support Formula for amount
  1. Determine the individual net disposable income (INDI) of each spouse:
    • Payor’s INDI = Guidelines income minus child support minus taxes and deductions minus spousal support (Your NDI = $63387 with no SS)
    • Recipient’s INDI = Guidelines income minus notional child support minus taxes and deductions plus government benefits and credits plus spousal support (Her NDI = $29202 with no SS)
  2. Add together the individual net disposable incomes. By iteration, determine the range of spousal support amounts that would be required to leave the lower income recipient spouse with between 40% and 46% of the combined INDI. (her % is 31.5 with no SS)
The above is from STEPS TO USING THE SPOUSAL SUPPORT ADVISORY GUIDELINES - WITH CHILD SUPPORT FORMULA.
I got these numbers using TaxTips.ca - 2013 and 2014 Canadian Income Tax Calculator, with her claiming one child as the 'equivalent to spouse' dependent. In Ontario. And monthly CS of $1709 for you, and notional monthly CS of $647 for her.

$1500/mo SS would bring her to 43.6% of combined NDI.
$1000/mo SS would bring her to 39.5% of combined NDI.

http://www.mysupportcalculator.ca/Calculator.aspx gives a range of about $800 to $1600/mo SS.

The asset equalization (home equity and RRSP split) is irrelevant to this.

.... but I just reread your posts, with 50-50 custody, you should only be paying $1062/mo in CS. And the resulting SS range is slightly increased: about $900 to $1700.
 
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if you agree to pay SS, make sure that a termination date is clearly spelt out in oyur agreement, with no reviews, also, include in which case it automatically ends (repartnering, salary increase, etc). You c n also make an offer where the amount decreases each year, that way she will be able to slowly get used to lower income.

This part I find really unfair, because you will have to get used to live on lower income as well, but nobody cares about that.
 
What was your standard of living like - savers or spenders?

You might be able to argue that you didn't have a very good standard of living or something.

I think I would take this to court unless you get a fixed end date with lots of termination clauses also make sure it can REDUCED (dont say revised, because she might lose her job) at anytime upon changes in either of your conditions.
 
My numbers and situation are very similar.

Good luck trying to avoid SS. I don't care how good your lawyer is..that'll be a fight.

My former spouse sounds identical to yours.

In the end I settled on slightly more than the median. Keeping in mind, half comes back in taxes.

The Legal Bills are brutal.

My one saving grace is...I can work on the side for CASH and my ex has decided it was o.k. to do it. Most of the money goes to the kids anyway but at least it gives me some spending money

I think the other posters are correct. Get an end time.
 
Links17 said:
What was your standard of living like - savers or spenders?

You might be able to argue that you didn't have a very good standard of living or something.

I think I would take this to court unless you get a fixed end date with lots of termination clauses also make sure it can REDUCED (dont say revised, because she might lose her job) at anytime upon changes in either of your conditions.
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Our standard of living was average. We probably over spent in some cases and built up unnecessary debt. We did not lead an extravagant lifestyle by any means. Just poor money management.
 
My one saving grace is...I can work on the side for CASH and my ex has decided it was o.k. to do it. Most of the money goes to the kids anyway but at least it gives me some spending money
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Whats to say she doesn't come back and bite you in the ass for this?
 
Personally, I would fights this - self-represent with LOTS of research. This is a case mostly about the details I would say. The money you spend on a lawyer will make winning irrelevant.

1. You didn't have the full salary for the whole marriage. Only at the end so it isn't like she lived at that level the entire time

2. If your standard of living is fueled off debt - that doesn't count as "standard of living" which gives rise to Spousal Support. There is case law for this.
 
Links;

I guess you never know BUT she (my ex.) seems pretty fatigued from her legal bill.

Her lawyer was very aggressive but seemed to grossly overcharge her. For example, I would often rcvd. a 5 pager. I used to get rattled, then just laughed about it. As in ....whatever.

Ex's legal bill since the fall was about 45 K. Not kidding.

To the initial poster.....it seems to be determined on what judge you get. Some seem to go for the ex....some want everyone to be fair.

I had the 'pleasure' of seeing both. Last one was normal...i.e. middle of the road.
 
On its own, a mere disparity of income that would generate an amount under the Advisory Guidelines formulas, does not automatically lead to entitlement. There must be a finding (or an agreement) on entitlement, on a compensatory or non-compensatory or contractual basis, before the formulas and the rest of the Guidelines are applied
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From a quebec decision: CanLII - 2011 QCCA 1554 (CanLII)
 
Links17 said:
Personally, I would fights this - self-represent with LOTS of research. This is a case mostly about the details I would say. The money you spend on a lawyer will make winning irrelevant.

1. You didn't have the full salary for the whole marriage. Only at the end so it isn't like she lived at that level the entire time

2. If your standard of living is fueled off debt - that doesn't count as "standard of living" which gives rise to Spousal Support. There is case law for this.
Click to expand...
Do you have the link for the case law?
Thanks
 
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