Spousal support and quality of live

N

nepenois

New member
When determining the spousal support amount one of the factors is that both spouses should be able to maintain the same quality of live as it was during the marriage.
We are in mid-40 and agreed on a 5yr spousal support amount giving the fact that wife is self-sufficient and with this support and equalization payment both spouses have same quality of live right now and for the next few years. But when we retire, husband's pension income will exceed wife's (because he contributes much more to his RRSP than she) so her quality of life will be lower than his.

Do we have to take into consideration our quality of life 20 years from now?
 
nepenois said:
When determining the spousal support amount one of the factors is that both spouses should be able to maintain the same quality of live as it was during the marriage.
We are in mid-40 and agreed on a 5yr spousal support amount giving the fact that wife is self-sufficient and with this support and equalization payment both spouses have same quality of live right now and for the next few years. But when we retire, husband's pension income will exceed wife's (because he contributes much more to his RRSP than she) so her quality of life will be lower than his.

Do we have to take into consideration our quality of life 20 years from now?
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I don't know where that quality of life thing comes from, but it's ridiculous. How can either spouse be expected to keep a certain quality of life when their incomes stay the same but they now have to maintain two households instead of just one? That factor is definitely outdated now that both spouses typically earn their own incomes.

If your ex-wife is self-sufficient, let her be self-sufficient. If you have to give her spousal support (say as a bribe to keep out of court) then make sure there is an end date specified.

As for the pension and RRSPs making their quality of life different post-retirement, that's handled by their split of assets during equalization, and by their post-separation financial decisions. If she takes spousal support from his pension income when she's already had the pension equalized, that's double dipping.

His post-separation wise decisions to have solid RRSPs should not subsidize her post-separation poor decisions to go on annual cruises and not save a bit for retirement. If she wants a similar quality of life to him once they both reach retirement, she's going to have to make similar retirement planning decisions.
 
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^don't understand why females post-divorce are assumed to go on annual cruises and generally painted as frivolous and wasteful....

I believe "quality of life" can be misinterpreted but proper equalization is to ensure both people come out of marriage on same footing.

You AGREED on 5 yr spousal support. So live with it. Once you are divorced and assets divided and support agreed to, your retirement plans are your own.
 
arabian said:
You AGREED on 5 yr spousal support. So live with it. Once you are divorced and assets divided and support agreed to, your retirement plans are your own.
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The OP is not complaining about the 5 yr support. He is questioning whether the retirement benefits will come into play later on.
 
Rioe said:
I don't know where that quality of life thing comes from, but it's ridiculous. How can either spouse be expected to keep a certain quality of life when their incomes stay the same but they now have to maintain two households instead of just one? That factor is definitely outdated now that both spouses typically earn their own incomes.
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I found the concept of 'same quality of life' on this website What is a Spousal Support Review and When is it Used? It says:

the court’s analysis will usually come down to two considerations:

i) has the spouse been adequately compensated for the economic/career disadvantages resulting from the breakdown of the marriage; and

ii) does s/he still have financial need, meaning is s/he self-sufficient to the point where the two spouses’ quality of life are roughly equal.
 
Thank you arabian. I just wanted to clarify if the 'same quality of life' should be applied to first few years after the breakdown or for an indefinite period.
 
nepenois said:
I found the concept of 'same quality of life' on this website What is a Spousal Support Review and When is it Used? It says:

the court’s analysis will usually come down to two considerations:

i) has the spouse been adequately compensated for the economic/career disadvantages resulting from the breakdown of the marriage; and

ii) does s/he still have financial need, meaning is s/he self-sufficient to the point where the two spouses’ quality of life are roughly equal.
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That's just from a random lawyer's office website. I would search Canlii for legal precedents to see when spousal support is appropriate. That point i) is the most commonly seen now, I believe. Point ii) is more relevant to a couple separating where one spouse was not self-sufficient and must be supported while they become so.
 
We are in mid-40 and agreed on a 5yr spousal support amount giving the fact that wife is self-sufficient and with this support and equalization payment both spouses have same quality of live right now and for the next few years
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You already have an agreement? So what matter does it make the RRSP pensions etc...

Make sure your agreement locked solid tight with the termination date, really solid clear language.

For my own person curiousity can I understand how you arrived at 5yrs SS and equalizing the lifestyles?
 
Links17 said:
For my own person curiousity can I understand how you arrived at 5yrs SS and equalizing the lifestyles?
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We negotiated it taking in account the suggested spousal support guidelines amount, length of the marriage, roles of each spouse, earning power of wife before, during and after marriage, her present salary and assets after the split, ability to stay self-sufficient, and the fact that we retain friendly relationships.
 
Were the pensions split appropriately during the divorce?

They are to be included in the equalization of assets.

If this is already done, and the SS will be done in 5 years before either party starts retirement, then as far as I know it is not an issue at all.

The concept of "double dipping" into ex spouses pensions arises when:

-The spouses have already split and equalized their pension. So the person with a lesser net worth has already received a share of the others pension.

-The higher earning spouse is paying SS and then retires, and is then forced to pay SS out of their pension income that was left after already giving half to their former spouse.

The judgements are mixed on this one, but generally judges lean towards allowing the double dipping. Yay family law.
 
But when we retire, husband's pension income will exceed wife's (because he contributes much more to his RRSP than she) so her quality of life will be lower than his.

Do we have to take into consideration our quality of life 20 years from now?
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Your current income comes from work you perform. This work does not have value until you do it; it is only a potential. Spousal support is a way of address the difference in earning potential, particularly when it is attributable to the marriage.

Retirement earnings are different. They are generally a result of either a pension, or RRSP.

Both pensions and RRSPs have a value that can be assessed. As such, when they are developed during the marriage they are shared as part of equalization of property.

After the marriage, both spouses have an obligation to try to make themselves economically self sufficient. They will need to consider their assets and their incomes (post-spousal support if applicable) when contemplating their future retirement.

the fact that we retain friendly relationships.
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Money is only money. If both of you are satisfied with the lives you are living, and you can look at yourself in the mirror in the morning and feel satisfied with yourself, you are a winner in the settlement (and hopefully she is too).
 
FightingForFamily said:
If this [pensions split] is already done, and the SS will be done in 5 years before either party starts retirement, then as far as I know it is not an issue at all.
...........

The judgements are mixed on this one, but generally judges lean towards allowing the double dipping. Yay family law.
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So this is still a grey area and we cannot certainly say 'it is not an issue at all'.
 
You didn't answer the question. If you split your pension in the equalization of net family property in the appropriate amount, then that is all she entitled to.

However, if you are still paying her SS when you retire, you will pay SS out of your income, but this will now be pension income rather than employment income. In effect, she will be receiving money from your pension in the form of SS in addition to the earlier equalization payment.

In other words, if you're paying SS, the principles of wage slavery would indicate it's better to keep working until you're (nearly) dead rather than trying to retire early.

In your case, if you have a signed agreement for 5 years of SS and it's a solid agreement, you shouldn't have any problems when you eventually retire.

Your priority is to make sure your SS agreement is solid and fair, dodge the rule of 65 if you can, and hope that your ex decides it is better to work within the five year period.
 
What's that? Another support after SS had finished?
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As per "They will need to consider their assets and their incomes (post-spousal support if applicable) when contemplating their future retirement."

Rephrased: They will need to consider their assets and income when contemplating their future retirement, with the impact of spousal support on both parties' income to be kept in mind.
 
OrleansLawyer said:
As per "They will need to consider their assets and their incomes (post-spousal support if applicable) when contemplating their future retirement."

Rephrased: They will need to consider their assets and income when contemplating their future retirement, with the impact of spousal support on both parties' income to be kept in mind.
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Now I see what you mean. Thank you OrleansLawyer.
 
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