Spousal Support....again.

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murphyslaw said:
You cant just say that you will pay $0 child support.The money is supposed to be for the children,to meet their needs.By all means try cutting off all spousal support.Her move back to family immediately means she has access to free child care and financial help anyway.Do not punish the children because of the mother.It will only bite you in the rear.What about you, is there any hope of a transfer out west?
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I currently do not pay her spousal and have no intentions whatsoever of ever paying her spousal. I understand that CS is for the childrens needs but my argument is that they need to see their father, my calculations off the start have me spending around $10000-$12000 a year on travel alone not to mention everything else.

Not only will she be living at her mothers house and paying hardly anything in any for rent, she plans to work two jobs (she is a workaholic), she has already informed me that for her teaching piano her rates will go up from the $70 and hr she charges here to $120 hr in Edmonton.

I am certanily not "punishing" my children, but if i conti ue to pay that CS I will not see them, it is plain and simple math, I cannot afford to.

As for the transfer out west....there is a small chance, which I am looking into, but it is not likely for the next few years, but I will try what I can.
 
murphyslaw said:
You cant just say that you will pay $0 child support.The money is supposed to be for the children,to meet their needs.By all means try cutting off all spousal support.Her move back to family immediately means she has access to free child care and financial help anyway.Do not punish the children because of the mother.It will only bite you in the rear.What about you, is there any hope of a transfer out west?
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He can agree with his ex that, in lieu of child support, he will cover the costs of travel due to her decision to relocate the child. Otherwise, the other choice is that she cover the costs associated with him exercising his parenting time due to her decision to move. It is quite common.

Her move back to family MAY provide for some beneficial aspects to the children. But those benefits must be weighed against OP being an involved parent in their lives. It is regularly found that it is in the best interests of the children to have both parents equally involved in the kids lives.

If this was me, I'd fight this move tooth and nail. At that distance his ability to parent will be significantly marginalized. And unless his ex is willing to compensate him for the increased costs of exercising his parenting time by either waving c/s or paying for the trips AND by providing him with extended time during the school breaks, I see little reason to agree with removing the children from their familiar location and an involved parent. As those factors will likely outweigh the benefits the children MAY get if the ex is allowed to move.
 
HammerDad, I couldnt agree more, I have been since day one, a very involved parent, and the kids have been my number one priority.

Having said that, what I dont want to get into is a long protracted battle in the courts that will eat up any extra money I may have as well as the rest of the fun stuff that goes along with lengthy court battles.

Dont get me wrong, my kids are worth everything to me, but realistically, bankrupting myself only to have the same outcome only hurts them in the long run.

It all boils down to the fact that I dont feel I can win. I thought I would "win' the OCL decision, to me it is so very clear, but I was wrong there. I have read almost every post in this forum, been on CanLii site reading court case after court case and it always seems regardless of situation, the status qou and more often than not, mother, get custody. Status qou be damned, so the kids have to move to new school, town etc, their mother is doing that anyways, bottom line, their quality of life is better with me, they are happier with me, they dont have nightmares and behaviour issues when they are with me.

As I mentioned earlier, I have nothing new to say to a judge that wasnt said to the OCL lawyer, I expressed all my concersn about the girls living with their mother, poor diet, shabby clothes, lack of activity (the kids mother is obese and does nothing physical with them.....ever!)
I even asked my lawyer his thoughts, on whether we could win in court in light of the OCL recommendations and he thinks it unlikely.

The whole things makes me sick to me stomach. Do I fight only to lose again, at what cost, or try and settle and get the possible outcome with that ie financial, travel arrangements etc???
 
Fight this tooth and nail.The OCL has been proved downright wrong on more than one occasion,there are Can-li cases to prove this.If she has work where she is ,she cant say she MUST move from the only place her kids have ever known.Prove a case of parental alienation -she is moving not as a matter of economic necessity, but rather to break down your relationship with your kids.You have a history of friction with the grandma?Another factor in the alienation,she is leaving the kids with someone who actively will alienate you from your kids.If she is having problems with childcare suggest she move closer to you so you can get more involved.Her job as she clearly has proved ..can be done anywhere.(I don't have any real experience in getting child support, as my ex doesn't believe in paying, so excuse my lack of knowledge) Good luck ,I hope it works out for you.
 
northbaydad72 said:
As I mentioned earlier, I have nothing new to say to a judge that wasnt said to the OCL lawyer, I expressed all my concersn about the girls living with their mother, poor diet, shabby clothes, lack of activity (the kids mother is obese and does nothing physical with them.....ever!)
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No offense, but if this was your main argument, you focused your energies on the wrong/losing issues.

Instead of pointing out all of the things that are wrong with your ex, you should've been pointing out all of the benefits you bring to the table. Your involvement in their lives. Show your journal of the time you spent with them (you did journal/calendar your time and what you did didn't you?). Show the times you went to teacher interviews, took them to the dentist/doctors/sports etc. Talk abou their roots to the current location.

Never bring up that because your ex is obese she can't look after the kids. That looks horrible. You would sound like a bitter bigot...not saying you are. Just the appearance of what that sounds like to an impartial 3rd party.

Focusing on the ex's negatives is a losing strategy. You need to focus on your strenghts and what you bring to the table. Show what you do and what your plan is for staying involved and how you want to facilitate your ex's relationship. That is what they want to hear as those are the things that are in the best interests of the kids.
 
Focusing on the ex's negatives is a losing strategy. You need to focus on your strenghts and what you bring to the table. Show what you do and what your plan is for staying involved and how you want to facilitate your ex's relationship. That is what they want to hear as those are the things that are in the best interests of the kids.
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So the question is, once the die is cast here...what is the best strategy for going about changing it?

I know Workingdad has some experience with this in his own case...but his ex was more seriously in the wrong (ie, she has more prominent personality issue that he could work with as a defense). How does once work away at an OCL recommendation when you've got two relatively normal parents?

Should he just start building a case around what would happen should these children be removed from his parental influence?
 
Pursuinghappiness said:
Should he just start building a case around what would happen should these children be removed from his parental influence?
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As far as I can tell, the kids aren't gone yet.

From here, I'd go back and journal EVERYTHING I had done as far back as I can remember. I then start getting really involved in their activities. Spend as much time with them as possible, journalling everything.

Shift the focus away from the "ex is bad" to "I'm a really good parent". Argue that the OCL report doesn't take into contemplation the roots the children have in their current community. The OP's family, their school and friends. Work on a parenting agreement that shows you will be willing and able to facilitate the ex's relationship with the kids and that keeps you involved.

The OCL report is a negative against us, but is not a nail in the coffin. The only way it becomes a nail in the coffin is if the OP gives up.

If he is ok with the kids moving then he needs to work out a fair parenting plan that gives him significant time with the kids like:

most of summer
all march breaks
skype time
1/2 of christmas break (with each parent getting christmas day every other year)

He also needs to work on who is going to cover the costs. If it is him, his c/s should be reduced accordingly due to her decision to move. If it is her, well c/s stays the same and she pays for his or the kids tickets and accomodations.
 
HammerDad, I was doing a little venting there, what was presented to the OCL lawyer was exactly what you said, all the positive things my involvement in their lives brings. My comments against their mother were strictly in the unhealthy lifestyle etc vein, and I was always quick to point out that their mother loves them very much, and that I believed she was doing the best she could do, but in my opinion was not the best for the kids. So my strategy from the start has been on the strength of our relationship and my involvement.

It would seem that parental alienation is my only straw to grasp at, especially when you say both parents are relatively normal, it is very hard to quantify intangibles.
 
The kids have not gone yet, in fact they are currently with me for the month of Aug. I will drive them back to North Bay on Sep 1. The mother has no plans to move before Jan, possibly even next summer, assuming that is what the final outcome is.

Although I live 5hrs away from them, each and every month , sometimes twice a month I travel back and forth and we have a great time together, we always have, unfortunately I have been terrible in documenting things n the past, lesson learned.
 
I have seen a court order put into play preventing one ex spouse from moving to the other end of the province, because of creating difficulties to access and visitation.If your ex is trying to make it financially impossible for you to have an active part in your kids life then that issue should be raised (in my opinion).
 
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