Spousal Support....again.

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northbaydad72

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Hello all, i know SS is by far not a new topic, but here I go. I am looking for your opinions, I certainly have my own opinion but need others to give me perspective.

Background; married 7 yrs, separated almost 3yrs ago. Two kids, 7 and 8, currently living with mother in North Bay. I pay full table amout of $926 per month. Mother is seeking full custody and move to Edmonto, I am seeking full custody and move them to Trenton with me, we have a disclosure meeting with OCL next week to hear the recommendation. While all this going on, trying to get a finalized sep agreement covering the financials etc, she is keeping house, I my pension, full table CS, for now, and I am pushing for $0 in SS.

She is university educated, degree in music, currently teaches piano, and vocal. Has turned down work opportunities in the past for whatever reason, she is healthy and has no factors limiting her from working more than she does currently, as self employed she significantly lowballed her income, currently recieving in the ballpark of $950 in child tax credits, and $930 in CS, that is almost $2000 without leaving the house, but is wanting more, in her words, "not because i need it, but my lawyer says I could get it and if it helps me and the kids why not". She is wanting $300 a month in SS which happens to be about the amount it costs me every month in expenses to spend time with the kids every month.

Her attitude of entitlement just floors me, she was never a stay at home mom, I took a combined 20 months in parental leave when the kids were born, and we had a nanny care for them until they started school.

What sickens me most is what appears to me to be a system that almost always awards the other spouse (Mother) spousal support, regardless if there is a need, or whatever ridiculous criteria is used.

We are no longer together, I work hard for my money, I work hard to enjoy a certain standard of living, there is nothing stopping her from doing the same. She says she wants to go back to university, get another degree and then go from there, how on earth is it my responsibility to continue to pay for that.

Extremely frustrating!!
 
So you have been separated for 3 years? Have you paid any amount of SS in these 3 years?

Entitlement to SS must first be proven. Challenge your STBX to prove that she is entitled to SS before even entertaining the discussion of amount or duration.
 
Initially when I move out she appraoched me and said that the cost of "our" life, house, bills, car payments, RESP ($200 per month pe child) etc was $4000. She said if I could pay $2000 she would pay the other $2000, to keep the stability for the kids. I was able to do this for a short while, lived in a friends basement, until I got my own place then dropped down to the table CS amount. None of this was ever court ordered or put in a sep agree, it was me doing what I could and thought was best for the kids. So, to answer your questions, I did not pay any official SS.
 
None of this was ever court ordered or put in a sep agree, it was me doing what I could and thought was best for the kids. So, to answer your questions, I did not pay any official SS
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So you're here complaining about something you haven't even gone to court over to argue yet? This isn't a gender issue...this is an issue about your particular ex...who sounds like a jerk partially because you've enabled her...ie. paying her above the CS table amounts without a court order.

You're under zero obligation to pay SS until she proves entitlement..nor should you...your mission at this point should be to show why she doesn't need it and you've done a pretty good job of summarizing that here.

What sickens me most is what appears to me to be a system that almost always awards the other spouse (Mother) spousal support, regardless if there is a need, or whatever ridiculous criteria is used.
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What sickens me is posters who start gender bashing when they've helped to create their ex's attitude of entitlement and before they've even gotten an order for them to pay SS. Go to court...prove your case.
 
You're not obligated to pay her anything in SS until she proves entitlement, and that will likely be through the courts, especially if you take the position that she has no entitlement from the start. Let her spend the money and effort into convincing the court that she is entitled to SS, and you respond accordingly if that happens.

You're going to have a more challenging issue on hand with regards to negotiating where and who the children should reside with. I'd suggest you focus on getting that issue settled first for now.
 
Agree with pursuinghappiness post in it's entirety.

Are you divorced yet?

Do you see your kids on a regular basis? Why do you think she would be allowed to take them out of the province with her?
 
You did not mention for how long you paid her $2000 a month but that was the right thing to do. I disagree with those who say that one needs to go to court to get spousal support order. The purpose of the SS is to let the less advantaged spouse get back on their feet. You can argue that you have done that and now that you have been separated for 3 years, it is sufficient time for her to be self sufficient.

If I were you, I would agree to $300 per month. Given that it is a tax deductible payment, it would only cost you $200 (more or less depending on your incremental tax rate) a month in reality. If you fight that, chances are, she might get a bigger amount through court and the legal costs will be definitely more than $300 per month. Make sure you put a termination date in the SA.

Your focus should be the children. I would not agree to her taking the children to such a long distance as they need to be close to both parents.
 
Singledad:

I have to disagree although you make a very valid point he could try to argue in court regarding his previous benevolent payments and so he doesn't owe her anything else. However it also gives her an argument in court...ie, "he started paying me SS, then suddenly stopped and it caused me X hardship"

Also his SS amount, if he does end up paying it, will be affected by the custody/access arrangement which isn't determined yet. Less CS, more SS and vice versa. If she goes after retro support...that could be an issue.

I get that the OP was trying to be a good guy but jerks always mistake kindness for weakness and try even harder to screw you. I would never recommend anyone pay anything but CS until there's a court order in place. It can potentially open up a can of worms and the burden of proof should be on her side to prove entitlement.

I also would agree that this OPs main concern right now shouldn't be on SS, it should be on the fact that his children might end up living away from him. I hope for both his sake and his children's sakes, that doesn't happen. Kid's need both parents in their lives.

To the OP...good luck on your OCL report.
 
singledad99 said:
I disagree with those who say that one needs to go to court to get spousal support order.
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I don't think that people should be forced to resort to court action to obtain spousal support either. However, there must exist a real need and entitlement for one to receive spousal support. Given the limited info from the OP's post, it's hard to picture the OP's STBX as being in dire need or having clear entitlement of spousal support when she has a university degree, is currrently working/has been working, and presumably is able to afford an upcoming/intended cross province move with the children. Given these factors, it's up to her to prove that she is indeed entitled to spousal support. The ability to receive spousal support should not be abused. Spousal support involves a payor on the other end as well and affects the payor's financial situation, it should not be demanded simply because of an "I can" and "I want it" attitude.
 
First off, thank you to all who posted, your comments have been enlightening. To give some further clarification, we are not yet divorced. Please correct me if I am wrong but a judge will not grant us a divorce until we have a sep agreement in place. I have been going back and forth with my ex to try and get a signed sep agreement but she stalls and keeps coming back to SS. My plan is to get the sep agreement done, which is only covering the financial side of things and then file for divorce, she originally informed me that she would be okay with a joint divorce but since then has continued to counter with SS with every new iteration of sep agreement my lawyer sends her. Which is the part I find most frustrating, how does one move forward in a case like this, I suppose thru the court.

To PursuitofHappiness, my intention was not to gender bash, I think rather highly of women, and have many excellent female roles models in my life, but to comment, my research has shown that for the most part if the spouse asks for SS they get it. To be very frank, I am fundamentally against SS, my ex was a workaholic, was happier at work in fact, and had turned down better jobs over the last couple of years, we had a nanny, and I took time out from my career to stay at home when the kids were first born, and I would do it again in a heartbeat, best decision I ever made.

The other question asked was how often I see my kids. The distance between residences is 5 hours. Since I was posted to Trenton last summer I have made that trip at least once a month, more often than not twice a month. On long weekends I would normally be able to get off work around 2-3 Friday afternoon, drive to North Bay, pick up the kids and drive right back, getting home around 12. Then on the Monday drive them back. On regular weekends I would leave around the same time Friday drive up and get a room and stay up there for the weekend, this of course is very costly in both time, energy and money, but worth it to see my kids. I had them for two weeks at Christmas, March break and have them for the month of Aug. So I have done my best to maintain the contact with them, plus during the school year I call every morning before they go to school. Yet despite my best efforts I am terrified that the courts will allow her to move away with the kids.

Again, thank you all for your advice and commensts.
 
Congratulations on staying out of court so far.

I agree that men are treated as third class citizens in the court system but it is partly men's fault too. There are lots of men who would do anything to avoid responsibility.

Your best approach is to stay out of court. If that means giving little more than what you think she deserves, so be it. One day in court will cost you much more than what your ex is asking as SS. Plus once you are in court, you will unleash the beast of hostility that will eventually damage both of your relationships with the children.

Actually even without hearing your ex's side, I can tell she is not being too unreasonable. She could have easily asked for much higher amount and got it through the court system but she hasn't done it so far.

You have been separated for 3 years. I am assuming all these years the kids were with their mom. Again, not to disheart you or something like that, it will be close to impossible to get a joint or shared custody through the court system because the courts don't like changing status-quo. Working with your ex, out of the court, is your best strategy to gain any more fair custody arrangements with your ex.

I am sure it is much easier to drive from Trenton to North Bay than from Trenton to Edmonton. With a status-quo of 3 years, it will not be very hard for your ex to convince the judge that kids need to move with her. You can't prevent it because you are also living in Trenton. So if the kids must move, the judge will let them move with the the parent with whom they have been living for last 3 years i.e. mom.

The facts that she was workaholic or you had a nanny are irrelevant because they are events in the past and cannot be used in determining future custody needs of the children. The court takes the current situation in consideration and determines whether or not they need to change it. You may ask for OCL involvement but it will take approx 6 - 12 months for them to complete their study. OCL has a track record of endorsing the status-quo as well.

Have you seen any lawyer yet?
 
Thank you, I have tried from the very start to avoid court, not due to avaoiding responsibility but to avoid as you said the costs and other crap (hostility etc) that will result.

As for the giving a little to avoid it....I can't! Plain and simple, she does not deserve it, not entitled to it, she never gave up anything career wise for our marriage, I mentioned ther nanny to illustrate that point, she worked all thru their early childhood. I cannot continue to give her money, on top of the CS so she can take her monthly trips to Casino Rama and dress my kids in ratty hand me downs. She herself admitted to me she doesn't need it, but can get it so why not. Unacceptable, so unfortunately I cannot back down on that one. She wants, or at least last time she asked, $300 per month for 6 years, so she could go back to school and get another degree, it takews at least that per month to go see my kids.

As for the separation for 3 years, the first two years i was still in North Bay and we shared the kids, not exactly 50/50 week on due to shift work. I only got posted here a year ago so really status qou wise its only been a year.

I have a lawyer, and the OCL is already involved, in fact I have a disclosure teleconference in 1 hr, needless to say my stress levels are thru the roof.
 
To PursuitofHappiness, my intention was not to gender bash, I think rather highly of women, and have many excellent female roles models in my life,
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Acknowledged. There's a lot of women haters here...so I was just pointing out that your failure to prove your case isn't really the fault of all women. And you do have a case here from what you've said. I'd definitely argue what you've stated.

She herself admitted to me she doesn't need it, but can get it so why not.
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No chance you have this in email?

One of the things that you'll find suggested here over and over is that you stop having verbal conversations with your ex. Communicate by email so that when she says little gems like this, you have it in a form that you can bring to court.

My very best wishes on the outcome of your OCL investigation.
 
Well I suppose I should finish the story and not leave anyone hanging, the OCL report did not go in my favour, I guess I suspected all along, and at the risk of sounding like the bitter Dad, the system failed my kids, status qou trumped best interest, it seemed very obvious to me that the decision was made prior to the start of the "investigation" and that every finding was written to support that decision.

They basically marginalized my oldest daughter's wishes to live with me, actually laughing while citing she also wished her sister was nicer to her as if the two were related and could not be taken seriously.

The OCL supports the mother's wish to relocate to Edmonton with the kids, oh and wrt to my great concerns about the Nana's hatred of me and continous bashing of me to my kids....my ex and her lawyer will come up with a plan, and talk to her mother, I'm sure it will be with great success.

So now where do I go from here. I am trying to come up with viable solutions for the way ahead. I plan on countering with $0 in child support in light of high cost of access, I have started to price out all the flights etc and it will be in the ballpark of $12000 a year for Christmas, March Break and summer, I was also offered Easter but will have to weigh all the costs associated with flying there and getting a hotel for that weekend, either way the costs will be significant. It was suggested that I be given March Break, 6 weeks in summer, Easter and one week at Christmas, which I will counter with all the Christmas break, which to me personally doesn't seem unreasonable as she has them every other day of the year. She can celebrate her Christmas with the kids either before or after, the holiday holds no religious meaning for her anyway.

I also want some sort of written agreement that my kids will be taken to all the extra-curricular activities, ie swimming, hockey, gymnastics etc, I will pay for all these myself but want assurance that the mother will take them, or more than likely one of her family as she intends to return to university full time and work as well, leaving my kidfs to be raised by her spiteful mother and other family members, a point of contention expressed to the OCL but it didnt seem to matter, but I digress.

I am goping to ask that she provide me with her exact planned departure date and any changes be provided 60 days notice.

Lastly, until she leaves I am asking that she meet me have way with the kids each month when they come to my house, something she has never done this whole past year.

So that is all I can think of at the moment, does any of this seem out to lunch to anyone, please let me know.
 
Northbaydad:

Firstly, you have my sympathies.

I plan on countering with $0 in child support in light of high cost of access,
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Secondly, This won't work but you definitely should be discussing shared travel expenses...particularly since she's the one moving.

Well I suppose I should finish the story and not leave anyone hanging, the OCL report did not go in my favour, I guess I suspected all along, and at the risk of sounding like the bitter Dad, the system failed my kids, status qou trumped best interest, it seemed very obvious to me that the decision was made prior to the start of the "investigation" and that every finding was written to support that decision.
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Lastly, are you planning to just accept the OCL recommendations or challenge them?
 
Sorry to hear that the outcome of the OCL investigation was not what you had hoped for.

However, it's important to note that the OCL recommendations are just that: recommendations. They do not constitute a case of "thou shall now proceed in this fashion" as a court order or mutual agreement between two parties would.

This means that, should you wish to, you can challenge the OCL recommendations: try to negotiate some other alternative outcome with your STBX, or take the matter to court.
 
You cant just say that you will pay $0 child support.The money is supposed to be for the children,to meet their needs.By all means try cutting off all spousal support.Her move back to family immediately means she has access to free child care and financial help anyway.Do not punish the children because of the mother.It will only bite you in the rear.What about you, is there any hope of a transfer out west?
 
Thank you for your quick replies.

I am unsure on how to proceed. I feel like the deck is already stacked against me and that going to battle it out in court will only result in the court accepting the OCL recommendation. I have nothing new to bring to light, my entire case was laid out very clearly to the OCL lawyer and yet her recommendation was the mother.

As for an alternate outcome with the stbx, she will not budge on her moving to Edmonton, believe me I have tried, on numerous occasions.

Pursuinghappiness, you mentioned shared travel costs. Do you mean splitting the cost of travel, or have her fly here with the kids and I fly them back, at this point I am open to suggestions.
 
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