WilsonWilsonWilson
New member
No one comes on this site to post that has the same parenting style as their current or former spouse I'm sure of that!
Shared Custody - Child's Choice
- Thread starter WilsonWilsonWilson
- Start date
No one comes on this site to post that has the same parenting style as their current or former spouse I'm sure of that!
Berner_Faith
New member
You are all over the map. You need to really listen to what posters are saying here, they are very knowledgeable, whether they have been through the exact same thing as you or not, doesn't make their advice invalid.
Your children are teenagers. No judge is going to force a teenager to continue 50-50. Heck at 14 a teenager can choose to move out of both parents house. You have created this divide between your kids and you and you're trying to blame your ex. She doesn't need to have the same parenting style as you but I can assure you, your strict parenting style is what has caused this issue. When both parents are together a strict parenting style may be okay because both parents are on board, but as children get older if they have a choice between some independence and having their every move overlooked and controlled, they are going to gravitate towards their independence.
You need to take responsibility. You have had 50-50 for years, if mom was truly to blame your kids would have voiced their misery about your house long before now. Instead of putting all your effort on blaming mom, waving a court order around (which is basically useless now) and trying to prove you are the better parent, pay your CS for her having the kids full time, be a man and rekindle the relationship with your kids.
I don't know why they would want to come to your house if they constantly feel you are trying to make them choose, change their mind, etc. Your kids are teens, accept that fact and move on with life. The more you pressure them to maintain 50-50 the further away you are pushing them.
And btw, my husband was in a similar situation growing up, in his teens him and his brother went and lived full time with his mom because they didn't like the rules at Dad's house or his new partner. Fast forward 20 years later, he doesn't talk to his dad. His dad was angry he made that decision, angry he had to pay more and due to dad's anger and resentment, those emotions never died. They never had a meaningful relationship after that. Up until about 5 years ago they saw each other on occasion but it has gotten to the point where they don't know each other and my husband has no desire to be around his toxic, negative father, who constantly puts his mom down.
My husband realizes that his decisions at the time are what started this downward spiral but he also knows he was a young teenager and he feels that if his dad wasn't so angry and resentful maybe they would have had a relationship in adulthood, but all hope is lost.
Your children are teenagers. No judge is going to force a teenager to continue 50-50. Heck at 14 a teenager can choose to move out of both parents house. You have created this divide between your kids and you and you're trying to blame your ex. She doesn't need to have the same parenting style as you but I can assure you, your strict parenting style is what has caused this issue. When both parents are together a strict parenting style may be okay because both parents are on board, but as children get older if they have a choice between some independence and having their every move overlooked and controlled, they are going to gravitate towards their independence.
You need to take responsibility. You have had 50-50 for years, if mom was truly to blame your kids would have voiced their misery about your house long before now. Instead of putting all your effort on blaming mom, waving a court order around (which is basically useless now) and trying to prove you are the better parent, pay your CS for her having the kids full time, be a man and rekindle the relationship with your kids.
I don't know why they would want to come to your house if they constantly feel you are trying to make them choose, change their mind, etc. Your kids are teens, accept that fact and move on with life. The more you pressure them to maintain 50-50 the further away you are pushing them.
And btw, my husband was in a similar situation growing up, in his teens him and his brother went and lived full time with his mom because they didn't like the rules at Dad's house or his new partner. Fast forward 20 years later, he doesn't talk to his dad. His dad was angry he made that decision, angry he had to pay more and due to dad's anger and resentment, those emotions never died. They never had a meaningful relationship after that. Up until about 5 years ago they saw each other on occasion but it has gotten to the point where they don't know each other and my husband has no desire to be around his toxic, negative father, who constantly puts his mom down.
My husband realizes that his decisions at the time are what started this downward spiral but he also knows he was a young teenager and he feels that if his dad wasn't so angry and resentful maybe they would have had a relationship in adulthood, but all hope is lost.
WilsonWilsonWilson
New member
You are making a lot of assumptions that don't reflect my situation very much. Perhaps it will be helpful for someone you are describing, but like I said from the beginning and what I find myself having to repeat over and over again, I'm looking for someone with personal experience in my situation, not someone who feels their opinion is the way the Court will see it also.
arabian
New member
The only poster I can think of who currently posts on here who might have personal experience similar to yours could be Rockspan - her current spouse has gone through something similar and now he is trying to have a meaningful relationship with his 2 estranged teenaged daughters who reside with the mother.
Berner_Faith
New member
Then you need to go find that person, but I guarantee you won't find it because no situation is the same. There are many parents who move to maintain 50-50 only to find eventually the kids decide to stay full time with the other parent. Your situation isn't all the unique. You had 50-50 and the teens decided to move in with mom. Why do you think your situation is so special?
arabian
New member
I spent many months, years in fact, trying to find a case similar to my own. I could find some similarities but not 100% the same. Throughout the ensuing 5 years in court I noted that my lawyer, as well as my ex's lawyer, cited "parts" of case law when presenting arguments in court. In the end much was up to the judge's discretion.
Parental alienation is a very expensive process. The most comprehensive cases on CanLii I've read have been from B.C. Supreme Court. You might want to have a look at those cases.
Parental alienation is a very expensive process. The most comprehensive cases on CanLii I've read have been from B.C. Supreme Court. You might want to have a look at those cases.
WilsonWilsonWilson
New member
Why do you think I think my situation is so special? I have never purposely implied that! In fact I imagine it to be quite common, but it is probably usually resolved before it ever gets to a Court Case where you can now read into how it was decided. That is the problem I am having.
When I was working through my separation years ago and representing myself I did a lot of research to cover my bases, so to speak, as best I could. I do remember coming across a situation where parents who had 50/50 custodial custody of their kids and it was upended when the mother decided to have the kids live with her full time. How the kids were involved in this decision I do not remember. The point was, when she went after more child support for this change she did not get it because:
1) It was pretty obvious there was no need for this change as the father did nothing materially to require it.
2) It was suspected the mother did it only to get more child support.
But can I find this case again on the internet?!? FRIG NO!!!
YoungDad23
New member
After being on this forum for a while, I think many of the posters you believe are being negative of picking your situation apart are simply trying to give you a REALITY CHECK before you jump into very expensive (and futile) family court litigation to try and restore the 50/50 parenting agreement.
I am quite a bit younger than most of the posters on here and not that much older than your kids. My parent split up when I was 10 so I know exactly how living in two households with two set of rules works and feels.
I too chose to live full-time with the permissive parent (my dad) in my late teens. My mom had sole custody and primary residence up until that point, so my moving out cut her income drastically, she was laid off her job shortly after that and was forced to sell a house she could no longer afford and also look for a new career.
DID I CARE?? KIND OF, BUT NOT REALLY!!
I am now much more aware of how painful and disruptive my decision was to my mom's life and realize it was probably not really in my best interest since I was then able to to stay out too late (not come home at all), eat junk food, drink with my friends and smoke pot, all with little to no consequences.
Had my mom acted as hurt and angry as you seem to be over that decision, I would have avoided her pretty much the way your kids are keeping their distance from you right now.
Your kids know full well that going to live with their mom has hurt your feelings and upended your life as you knew it.
I'm pretty sure part of your kids avoidance of you is so they don't have to face up in person to the hurt they have caused their you and your spouse who have tried so hard to do the right thing.
You said yourself, you would have done the same at their age, given the choice.
You need to QUIT trying to prove to your kids, the court, your friends/family, etc, that you are the better parent!! Your kids know it, their mom knows it, the court would maybe see it in a couple of years of litigation if you kept fighting that long, but it DOESN"T MATTER!!
Honestly, who cares how many letters of reference you have!!
If I was still a self-centred teen and in this situation, that statement would literally make me laugh at you and make me fight harder to screw you over.
The more you spin your wheels and blow this situation up, the further the kids will run from you and the harder it will be for them to reconnect afterwards.
You might take offense at this suggestion but IMHO, you need to get some therapy or counselling to calm down and get your head on straight before you self-destruct in court, which will cost you $$$$$ and leave you even angrier.
Have faith that you have been a good parent and that a lot of what you taught your kids over the years has stuck in their brains and your efforts to provide them with a healthy, structured home will be appreciated down the road.
They will realize their mother chose to be an indulgent "buddy" parent someday and they won't respect her for it in the end.
WilsonWilsonWilson
New member
I have been reading a lot I can assure you. I'm piecing together bits and pieces of logic from one decision to another, but finding one exactly like mine I know is not realistic.
So far no one is spending any legal fees because we are both representing ourselves in this motion she brought against me. However, my belief that PA plays a big part in my children's behaviour today is the cornerstone of the problem my family is in today.
This is not a matter of "parenting styles" as some posters have suggested here already. If that was a reason for kids to do whatever they want and live wherever they want, all kids today would be a ward of the State!!
Supporting the notion in the minds of one's children that they should not expect that both their mother and father should act towards them exactly the same way is always in the best interest of the children. Poisoning the minds of your children to make them believe that your way of parenting them is the right way and their other parent's way is wrong or in some way abusive or detrimental to their well being is the very definition of PA...no? Unfortunately I'm in the ladder category. But my sister-in-law is in the former, so it can be done without pitting the kids against either parent.
standing on the sidelines
New member
you may be young but that is one of the bests posts I have seen on this thread.
arabian
New member
Your ex has a motion before the court for change of custody due to material change of circumstances correct?
You want to oppose her motion by claiming parental alienation correct?
IF you don't want this to be a "he said she said" sort of thing then you would have to present evidence of the PA. Have you arranged for your children to be assessed by a neutral 3rd party professional? I honestly think that you would need some sort of report from a professional of PA for the court to even consider PA.
Without any compelling evidence from a 3rd party the judge would likely be left with simply ruling on the residence of the children, their ages. Don't be surprised if the judge orders an assessment.
You want to oppose her motion by claiming parental alienation correct?
IF you don't want this to be a "he said she said" sort of thing then you would have to present evidence of the PA. Have you arranged for your children to be assessed by a neutral 3rd party professional? I honestly think that you would need some sort of report from a professional of PA for the court to even consider PA.
Without any compelling evidence from a 3rd party the judge would likely be left with simply ruling on the residence of the children, their ages. Don't be surprised if the judge orders an assessment.
You do not have parental alienation. You need to do some research on this. Your kids are lazy and have no interest in speaking to you. Crying alienation is an insult to those on here who have actual alienation. I was alienated from my father and my partner has been alienated from his youngest.
You came looking for an example and there are none. Going in with the argument of alienation will get you laughed out of court. But hey, dont listen to any of us, we know nothing and dont understand anything youre saying.
You came looking for an example and there are none. Going in with the argument of alienation will get you laughed out of court. But hey, dont listen to any of us, we know nothing and dont understand anything youre saying.
WilsonWilsonWilson
New member
Thanks my friend, but you speak as if you have lived in my house the past 10 years! I appreciate your anecdotal evidence of your experience, but I'm really getting discourage by having to argue with people on this thread about stuff they assume but really know nothing about.
1) How do you know I am trying to get my kids back to live 50/50 with both parents? Where have I ever said this?
2) How do you know what my ex has said in her submissions into Court that are dishonest and inflammatory? How do you know if letters of reference from people who have been witness to what has been happening do not work to combat that character assassination?
3) How do you know how much money I have to spend on righting many of the wrongs that have taken place here that have nothing to do with anything I have done wrong, and why do you care?
How do you know any of this?!?!
If you are just trolling around the internet looking to give your opinion on something you are vaguely familiar with, message me directly and I'd be fine to converse with you, but this is not what I came on this forum looking for.
I thin what people are trying to tell you is that they are sympathetic to your situation - it's really miserable to not see your kids - but that going to court over CS is not going to change your situation. The court will not care about the letters you have from nine people saying that you are a good parent. They won't care about the house you bought. They won't care about your arguments of parental alienation (something which is extremely difficult to prove). None of these things change the fact that your kids are now living with their mother with no sign of change in the near future.
CS is for the support of the kids, not a reward to parents for being good parents or for following an agreement. This means that sometimes people who are really crappy parents end up receiving full CS, just because they have the kids. This is not fair and and it sucks, but it's the way CS works.
I think people on this site are trying to discourage you from going down a route which will only bring you more frustration. You would be better served by looking for other routes to repair your relationship with the kids. If you've read Divorce Poison (I've read it too, it's a good book), you can use many of the author's ideas for how to extend a hand to your kids.
It may also be there's nothing you can do except wait for your kids to get their heads out of their a$$es and reconnect with you. As YoungDad's example shows, it does happen. My bf's daughter, who is 17, is another example - went to live with her mother because she didn't like Dad's rules, now rebuilding the relationship with her father because she figured out over time that Dad was not such a bad guy and that his home, including his rules, was a healthier place than Mom's party shack. It took about a year for her to turn around, and Mom was filling her head with nonsense about Dad the whole time, but eventually she figured it out. So change does happen.
CS is for the support of the kids, not a reward to parents for being good parents or for following an agreement. This means that sometimes people who are really crappy parents end up receiving full CS, just because they have the kids. This is not fair and and it sucks, but it's the way CS works.
I think people on this site are trying to discourage you from going down a route which will only bring you more frustration. You would be better served by looking for other routes to repair your relationship with the kids. If you've read Divorce Poison (I've read it too, it's a good book), you can use many of the author's ideas for how to extend a hand to your kids.
It may also be there's nothing you can do except wait for your kids to get their heads out of their a$$es and reconnect with you. As YoungDad's example shows, it does happen. My bf's daughter, who is 17, is another example - went to live with her mother because she didn't like Dad's rules, now rebuilding the relationship with her father because she figured out over time that Dad was not such a bad guy and that his home, including his rules, was a healthier place than Mom's party shack. It took about a year for her to turn around, and Mom was filling her head with nonsense about Dad the whole time, but eventually she figured it out. So change does happen.
WilsonWilsonWilson
New member
She is actually not asking for change in custody...we are "shared custody" and that does not look like it will change. Where the kids live from my understanding really has nothing to do with "custody".
There is a lot of stuff that has taken place here that I just can't go into because it is too complicated. Could I have done things better had I know where we are today since this all happened...FOR SURE!! What I and my partner have gone through in all this is nothing short of going through the "5 Stages of Grief"...anger, bargaining, denial, depression and acceptance. I'm happy to say that we are now at the last stage otherwise at this point I would have to get professional help to deal with the pain of being abandoned by my children they way they have. A lot of people here seems to have their own opinion and agenda it seems about how to view my situation. I understand that...this is an emotional issue and our first impulse is always to react emotionally.
At this point I just want to have a relationship again with my children that is not there anymore. I know it will never be the same again...how could it be?!?! I want them to do what they feel in their heart is the right thing to do. I have had people here even suggest that I don't even have a right to influence my own children into seeing the "right thing" through the perspective of someone that is their father, has lived 35 years longer than them and has their best interest at heart and in mind. I don't get that mentality.
This first Court date I don't think is a setting where the Judge can order an assessment. Do I wish it was...you're darn right I do! Will I be in favour if he/she puts that on the table for consideration...you're darn right I will be!
One guy said it right here (out of the many things I think he said with nowhere near enough information to base an opinion on) that my kids are probably at this point feeling pretty rotten about what they have done to their dad and they have no idea now how to bridge that gap. Unfortunately, their environment at their mom's now is devoid of any motivation for working towards rekindling a loving relationship with their father. A Judge can change that and that would be a start!
WilsonWilsonWilson
New member
Honestly, the money really means nothing to me at this point, but I hope you are still wrong on this. Rewarding someone financially for bad behaviour is not just a rubber stamp, I'm pretty sure of that. I have read plenty of cases where guideline support was deviated from for reasons that may surprise a lot of naysayers here.
It's not the "ask" in Court that I necessarily have an issue with. It's the way she has approached the Court by trying to say that the children coming to live with her was almost a necessary act on her part because the kids were living in fear, repressed and abused at our house!! If that is not AP I need my head examined! How easy do you think it is to get 9 people from all walks of life, from all levels of professional reputation to step forward and say "what the hell is going on here?!?!" Are you really trying to convince me that the Court will just use those letters to line a bird cage? I doubt that very much. Most dealings I have had with Court and most Court Cases I have read so far come across as quite fair and actually justifiable.
WilsonWilsonWilson
New member
"I was alienated from my father and my partner has been alienated from his youngest."
How do I know any of what you are saying is true?
WilsonWilsonWilson
New member
I also forgot to mention, I never thought PA was even something I could consider was taking place that could explain how once loving and caring children could suddenly become the exact opposite in many ways...until I read "Divorce Poison"! After reading this book it opened my eyes to a lot of what gets done subtly by parents that most Courts do not recognize, mostly because they are not made aware of it and are always looking for the "smoking gun" instead of looking at who is currently loading that gun.
There is an old saying I think almost everyone has heard before..."The only thing evil needs to prevail is to have people stand by and watch it happen when they could do something about it"! After reading this book I mentioned above I'm of the conclusion that "the only way for AP to prevail, in any form, whether open and notoriously, or subtly behind closed doors is for people to sit back and watch it happen when they could do something about it".
When children are left to disrespect another parent with impunity because the one that should be advising them against this behaviour does nothing (which empowers the child even more) then how is that in the best interest of the child and how could a Court possible sanction that kind of behaviour once it becomes aware of it?
I don't know...I'm just asking?
Unfortunately, I do think there are good odds that letters from your friends will end up in a birdcage. These are not objective accounts. If you had nine independent psychological assessments or nine report from professionals who are not socially connected to you, it might be different. It's not that difficult to get people to write letters saying "my friend xyz is a wonderful parent and his/her ex is terrible!".
If you want to go ahead with some kind of court action, go for it. It's not the people on this forum that you have to convince. I think what we are saying is that a) child support follows the child; and b) courts will not give you a gold star for being a good parent and put your ex in the naughty chair for being a bad one.