Shared Custody - Child's Choice

WilsonWilsonWilson said:
Sorry I don't agree because I have seen it personally where a child support obligation has been completely expunged based entirely on the mother's behaviour. The children were still 14 and 16 at the time.

Also, I think you are actually completely wrong. I have a binding contract with set support amounts and custody arrangements. If one party wants to go back now and change terms in the contract, you're darn right they have to prove a "need" to do so! Changing terms of a contract that in effect affects the other party to that contract, cannot be change unilaterally by one party.
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Please post these cases.
 
rockscan said:
Please post these cases.
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Does it have to be a court case to be believable?

A neighbour of mine from my old neighbourhood spent 4 or 5 years having his two boys alienated from him by his ex wife. He would go out to watch his older son's hockey games and if he was spotted in the crowd he would receive nasty emails from his son (supposedly, but maybe the mother?) telling him not to be there because it was a distraction to him. This was the only way he got to see his son, because he refused to see his father. He did this for two years with the same result almost every time he was spotted in the crowd. On the third year he went out to see his son playing again and he had now started playing with the name on his jersey changed to that of his mother's new husband. My neighbour was crushed and he didn't have it in him to go to another game after that. At the end of the year he gets served court papers from his ex going after him to pay for the lion's share of the hockey expenses for his older boy. He went to court to fight it. He brought copies of those nasty emails and the the other evidence he had like name change etc. The judge ruled that the mother's behaviour had "basically reduced him, the real father of the boys to nothing more than a sperm donor and since you can't get child support from a sperm donor, you're not getting any more money from this man!" His child support order was vacated and he never paid her another dime. Sad thing is 10 years later he has not seen either of his boys again.
 
WilsonWilsonWilson said:
Does it have to be a court case to be believable?

A neighbour of mine from my old neighbourhood spent 4 or 5 years having his two boys alienated from him by his ex wife. He would go out to watch his older son's hockey games and if he was spotted in the crowd he would receive nasty emails from his son (supposedly, but maybe the mother?) telling him not to be there because it was a distraction to him. This was the only way he got to see his son, because he refused to see his father. He did this for two years with the same result almost every time he was spotted in the crowd. On the third year he went out to see his son playing again and he had now started playing with the name on his jersey changed to that of his mother's new husband. My neighbour was crushed and he didn't have it in him to go to another game after that. At the end of the year he gets served court papers from his ex going after him to pay for the lion's share of the hockey expenses for his older boy. He went to court to fight it. He brought copies of those nasty emails and the the other evidence he had like name change etc. The judge ruled that the mother's behaviour had "basically reduced him, the real father of the boys to nothing more than a sperm donor and since you can't get child support from a sperm donor, you're not getting any more money from this man!" His child support order was vacated and he never paid her another dime. Sad thing is 10 years later he has not seen either of his boys again.
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I would ask your neighbour for a copy of the case decision.

Often times when people tell a story the facts get watered down.

Legally speaking, child support is the right of the child.
 
Links17 said:
In Québec this does happen (children who refuse contact for no good reason csn lose child suppoet)
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I've read about this sort of thing (child support ending due to child's refusal to maintain relationship with payor parent) when children are in post-secondary education but not when they are younger.
 
WilsonWilsonWilson said:
Have you ever tried to get a new partner to move into your old matrimonial home when there is no financial need for it? :)
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she could of moved in with you. Its not like she would be needing her own separate bedroom. You decided to upsize. Now your financial issues are your own.

Actually my partner will be selling his home and moving into my old matrimonial home. There is no financial need for it as we both have fairly good paying jobs that we can easily support ourselves in separate residences. When we were discussing future living arrangements, he suggested that he sell and move into my place. He doesn't see it as the place I lived with my now ex, he sees it as my place and eventually it will be our place.

You try and say that you have a set CS amount. From what I know cs amounts are fluid and change from year to year. There has been a material change in circumstances...your kids want to live with their mother for whatever reason. I take it they still come and see you? If they would have decided to live with you instead would you say that you brainwashed them etc that you are claiming their mother did?

You need to pay CS for the kids, now you need to pay full cs for the kids. Her costs have went up like heat, hydro water and food while yours have gone down. I don't agree with your logic that she was getting along with the offset amount so it should stay that way. Things have changed and with that the agreement will change also.
 
One case is not several cases and it could be watered down in the sense that he didnt have to pay the hockey expenses.

The bottom line is cs is the right of the child and follows the child. Yes you have an order for 50/50 with offset but thats not what you have happening and it hasnt been the case for several months. Your ex is well within her rights to request full support. You can try to argue that shes in contempt for the access but as we've all said, a judge will listen to the kids and if they go in saying we want to live with mom thats what will happen and you'll be on the hook for cs AND legal expenses.

You have to ask yourself if its worth the ten grand in legal costs as well as the months in court and alienating your kids more while still being slapped with a hefty cs arrears amount.
 
standing on the sidelines said:
she could of moved in with you. Its not like she would be needing her own separate bedroom. You decided to upsize. Now your financial issues are your own.

Actually my partner will be selling his home and moving into my old matrimonial home. There is no financial need for it as we both have fairly good paying jobs that we can easily support ourselves in separate residences. When we were discussing future living arrangements, he suggested that he sell and move into my place. He doesn't see it as the place I lived with my now ex, he sees it as my place and eventually it will be our place.

You try and say that you have a set CS amount. From what I know cs amounts are fluid and change from year to year. There has been a material change in circumstances...your kids want to live with their mother for whatever reason. I take it they still come and see you? If they would have decided to live with you instead would you say that you brainwashed them etc that you are claiming their mother did?

You need to pay CS for the kids, now you need to pay full cs for the kids. Her costs have went up like heat, hydro water and food while yours have gone down. I don't agree with your logic that she was getting along with the offset amount so it should stay that way. Things have changed and with that the agreement will change also.
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Obviously I cannot expect more advice from people here other than "cookie-cutter" approach because they don't know all the details. But I do have a problem with the insinuation that I am trying to be a dead-beat dad!!!

Living with their mother for "whatever" reason just does not fly in court from what I can see. I live in their school district she doesn't. We promote the realities of life to the children, she promotes whatever makes her a better friend to the children. In other words, we help the kids "push the snow in their way", she jumps in front and does all that for them. Frig, if I was my kids I'd be going to live with her too, but that does not make the decision right because I would do it as well in their shoes. They don't get parented there, they get coddled. We are "tell" parents, she is an "ask" parent. Read the latest article about that in Maclean's magazine and see how damaging this is to children's future coping skills!

I have three children. I have tried several times to convince my children the importance of sharing their time equally with both parents. I don't know what has been said over there, but it has resulted in me not seeing two of my kids since last June and they live 5 minutes away. I can almost throw a rock from the roof of my house to the school where one of them goes. My oldest child, who's mind is less moldable, I have seen 5 times since June. The other two have been invited to see me several times and have found excuses or parroted stuff back to me that obviously has not come from their brain!

I'm not a dead-beat father. I have dead-beat children thanks to their mother's behaviour, or lack of parenting more like it!!
 
rockscan said:
One case is not several cases and it could be watered down in the sense that he didnt have to pay the hockey expenses.

The bottom line is cs is the right of the child and follows the child. Yes you have an order for 50/50 with offset but thats not what you have happening and it hasnt been the case for several months. Your ex is well within her rights to request full support. You can try to argue that shes in contempt for the access but as we've all said, a judge will listen to the kids and if they go in saying we want to live with mom thats what will happen and you'll be on the hook for cs AND legal expenses.

You have to ask yourself if its worth the ten grand in legal costs as well as the months in court and alienating your kids more while still being slapped with a hefty cs arrears amount.
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I agree the case sounded more like section 7 instead of CS. I think there may be more to the story as guys who have had one night stands have been found liable for CS for any unwanted pregnancy. Plus his friend wasn't seeing his kids at all except at public hockey games.

I have a feelng this poster doesn't care about the cost of going to court, he will do it just to try and prove his point.
 
rockscan said:
One case is not several cases and it could be watered down in the sense that he didnt have to pay the hockey expenses.

The bottom line is cs is the right of the child and follows the child. Yes you have an order for 50/50 with offset but thats not what you have happening and it hasnt been the case for several months. Your ex is well within her rights to request full support. You can try to argue that shes in contempt for the access but as we've all said, a judge will listen to the kids and if they go in saying we want to live with mom thats what will happen and you'll be on the hook for cs AND legal expenses.

You have to ask yourself if its worth the ten grand in legal costs as well as the months in court and alienating your kids more while still being slapped with a hefty cs arrears amount.
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If there is a way to be alienated more by my kids I'd love to hear it! The facts need to be heard by the court...all of them! That's what a Court is there for. They are bound to follow "Guideline" only in the absence of better arguments to the contrary. At least that is what I've seen from all my reading.

But this is beside the point. If you look at my original post, it was to solicit advise from someone who has gone through the same thing I am going through now. It wasn't an invitation for anyone and everyone to give their advice based on some opinion they have and draw me into arguing the merits of this and that. I can do that myself.
 
How old are your kids?

Sorry, I don't have any personal experience in this area. However, I do believe I am free to post on any post on the forum.

On a Sunday morning I have some time and if you can provide the ages of your children I will do a quick CanLii search and see if I can find any cases similar to your situation.
 
standing on the sidelines said:
I agree the case sounded more like section 7 instead of CS. I think there may be more to the story as guys who have had one night stands have been found liable for CS for any unwanted pregnancy. Plus his friend wasn't seeing his kids at all except at public hockey games.

I have a feelng this poster doesn't care about the cost of going to court, he will do it just to try and prove his point.
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Exactly...to prove my point not yours. I have given only a fraction of the details of the situation. Being alienated from your kids (if you've never had that happen to you?) is worth fighting for to "prove the point" that what was done was to limit my access to my kids and to get more child support.
 
arabian said:
How old are your kids?

Sorry, I don't have any personal experience in this area. However, I do believe I am free to post on any post on the forum.

On a Sunday morning I have some time and if you can provide the ages of your children I will do a quick CanLii search and see if I can find any cases similar to your situation.
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I have been looking on CanLii and have not found anything similar enough to my situation. My kids are all in their teens now. I have no stomach or desire to fight them on their decision on my own without support from a Court or child advocate, because from their mother it will not come. It will just push my kids away even more than what they feel now. They see nothing wrong with cutting their father out of their life almost entirely. Punishing their father financially even more does nothing to help that. Punishing their mother financially stands a chance.

And just so everyone is clear here, I am not against supporting my kids financially in any way they need and I can afford. That has been made clear to them and their mother more than once and to the Court in my response. Putting money in her hands directly to spoil the kids more to bolster her "friendship" with them is not only immoral, it should be a crime!!
 
There is a difference between a child who is 12 and a child who is 17 (both teenaged).

If you have read CanLii you will note that it might be extremely important for your "teenagers" to be represented by OCL. This would help the court determine if there is a material change of circumstances and if this change of circumstances was contemplated at the time of your current custody order. IMO If there is no material change of circumstances then your ex would have no chance of changing custody/child support. Besides, without an impartial view of the situation (OCL) the court would be hard-pressed to make a decision on this.

You do not need to limit your searches on CanLii to just your province. Court of Appeal decisions (from any province) carry lots of weight with courts.

good luck
 
standing on the sidelines said:
are you still seeing your kids??? Being limited (because they want to live with their mom vs you) is very different then not seeing them at all.
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My youngest has been invited twice to see me since June and both times his decline seemed rehearsed, was disrespectful and got nowhere.

My middle child I have conversed with several time by text...some good some bad. She has been invited to meet at least twice by me and once by my partner and both times got nowhere.

My oldest child I have seen 5 times since June. I have tried to recruit her a bit as an "advocate for dad" with my middle child, but so far nothing.

Someone somehow has convinced them that seeing their father will be disloyal to their mother, or misinterpreted as a gesture that they want to go back to 50/50 living with their father, or an erosion of their power to think "I'm in control of my life"(from a text from my son!), or probably a combination of all of these things.

If it wasn't for my sister-in-law giving me the book "Divorce Poison" to help me navigate through all this I'd be either in a metal hospital or a morgue right now...death from a broken heart!
 
WilsonWilsonWilson said:
Obviously I cannot expect more advice from people here other than "cookie-cutter" approach because they don't know all the details. But I do have a problem with the insinuation that I am trying to be a dead-beat dad!!!

Living with their mother for "whatever" reason just does not fly in court from what I can see. I live in their school district she doesn't. We promote the realities of life to the children, she promotes whatever makes her a better friend to the children. In other words, we help the kids "push the snow in their way", she jumps in front and does all that for them. Frig, if I was my kids I'd be going to live with her too, but that does not make the decision right because I would do it as well in their shoes. They don't get parented there, they get coddled. We are "tell" parents, she is an "ask" parent. Read the latest article about that in Maclean's magazine and see how damaging this is to children's future coping skills!

I have three children. I have tried several times to convince my children the importance of sharing their time equally with both parents. I don't know what has been said over there, but it has resulted in me not seeing two of my kids since last June and they live 5 minutes away. I can almost throw a rock from the roof of my house to the school where one of them goes. My oldest child, who's mind is less moldable, I have seen 5 times since June. The other two have been invited to see me several times and have found excuses or parroted stuff back to me that obviously has not come from their brain!

I'm not a dead-beat father. I have dead-beat children thanks to their mother's behaviour, or lack of parenting more like it!!
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It must be very difficult for you. However, whatever you are doing, you should stop using the argument of the distance/school district.
If you live in the school district and she lives 5mn away from you, then she is pretty close to the school too right? She is only 5mn further from the school then you are, even if not in the same school district.

Also, you have your parenting style, she has hers. You can change yours if needed but you cannot change hers.
 
arabian said:
There is a difference between a child who is 12 and a child who is 17 (both teenaged).

If you have read CanLii you will note that it might be extremely important for your "teenagers" to be represented by OCL. This would help the court determine if there is a material change of circumstances and if this change of circumstances was contemplated at the time of your current custody order. IMO If there is no material change of circumstances then your ex would have no chance of changing custody/child support. Besides, without an impartial view of the situation (OCL) the court would be hard-pressed to make a decision on this.

You do not need to limit your searches on CanLii to just your province. Court of Appeal decisions (from any province) carry lots of weight with courts.

good luck
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My three kids range in age from 13 to 16. The only "material change of circumstances" was their decision to go live where the living was "free and easy!" Can anyone blame them?!?! From our house they walk to school, from their mother (who lives out of school district) they get a drive. At our house we focus on wholesome healthy homemade meals, at their mother fast food accounts for at least a 1/3 of all food consumed. At our house there are limits put on electronics times, at their mother the phone goes to bed with them and I have had texts from my oldest after midnight on a school night.

I have 9 letters of reference from friends and family who are completely gob-smacked by what has happened in our family and how the kids have basically abandoned us!
 
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