Settlement conference

[HonestHelp]

I have a settlement conference next week and i'm prepared to submit the offer to settle and conference briefs. However recently there has been change of material circumstances as my employer placed me on unpaid leave for an unknown duration therefore i do not have any income source. I have been paying cs volountarily as there has not been any court order imposed yet.

I am thinking of just bringing this issue up right at the beginning of the settlement conference. I am not represented, any help would be appreciated.

 

[rockscan]

You will be asked about finding new work. If this is the result of a vaccine policy you may also be told to get the shot to get your job back.

 

[HonestHelp]

You will be asked about finding new work. If this is the result of a vaccine policy you may also be told to get the shot to get your job back.

This is related to the vaccine policy. I've presented my employer with a supporting endorsed letter from a religious leader . My employer continues to infringe on my human rights.
Can the judge ask me to do something that goes against my sincerely held beliefs/creed?

 

[rockscan]

There have been a few cases brought to the human rights tribunal and to court on vaccine mandates and all of the major churches (including the Pope) have endorsed vaccinations. From what I understand, the human rights tribunal will be rejecting claims like this and have stated they do not consider it against these rights.

A judge will tell you to either get vaccinated or get a new job or they will impute an income to you for child support purposes.

This is a case of you choosing not to work not a loss of job due to things outside of your control.

I would also caution you may not be able to see your kids based on some of the cases where parents lost time due to refusal to get vaccinated but that’s a whole other discussion.

 

[HonestHelp]

This is most definitely not a case of me choosing not to work.
I have a religiously held belief that prevents me from taking the vaccine. I have an endorsed letter from a religious leader( obviously not the pope)
There is not even a mandate in my federally regulated work sector, just an "Expectation".

So what you are saying is, that my human rights has no weight?

 

[Tayken]

This is related to the vaccine policy. I've presented my employer with a supporting endorsed letter from a religious leader.

You have a huge hill to climb: https://www.ccpartners.ca/blog/deta...eligious-exemptions-from-covid-19-vaccination

Read that article.

My employer continues to infringe on my human rights.

Can the judge ask me to do something that goes against my sincerely held beliefs/creed?

They won't order you to get vaccinated. They will just make an order, as Rockscan, said to impute your income. They will also look at your choice as not in the "best interests" of the children. The anti-vax argument always fails in the public court system.

Why?

Because, the health care system is part of the government and so is the legal system. If the legal system were to say the medical system is WRONG that would be a huge government kerfuful. As well, judges are NOT medical professionals and will not go against the research and SCIENCE put forward by the medical community.

Religion often does not play out well in the secular court system. Remember Church has no influence over the legal system and laws. You need to seriously consider your position as like Rockscan said... you could loose access to your children for radical religious beliefs.

Put your faith in SCIENCE and not a false god who does not exist.

He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see
He tries to tell me what I put inside of me
He got the answers to ease my curiosity
He dreamed a god up and called it Christianity

God is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there

He flexed his muscles to keep his flock of sheep in line
He made a virus that would kill off all the swine
His perfect kingdom of killing, suffering and pain
Demands devotion atrocities done in his name

Trent Reznor - Nine Inch Nails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjwrM7LMYP0&ab_channel=YearZeroNIN

 

[rockscan]

Im saying that if the human rights tribunal will find that your rights have not been infringed upon by the vaccination policy then a judge may not hold that you are unable to work. Their view may be that the safety of the greater population outweighs your beliefs and you are purposely unemployed. An Ontario judge has already upheld a vaccination policy in Toronto. That holds weight for other choosing to remain unvaccinated in their cases for other matters.

I will also note that according to the CrA you are considered terminated after 13 weeks and you will not be entitled to EI as you refuse to be vaccinated. Today the Ontario health team said they doubt the vaccine mandate will be removed in January like the government hopes. All of this to say that you have months of unemployment ahead of you with no pay. Your ex could argue you are purposely unemployed because the courts have sided with vaccination policies.

 

[Tayken]

So what you are saying is, that my human rights has no weight?

No they do not. The only test in Family Law that prevails is the "BEST INTERESTS OF THE CHILDREN". You put your children's health at risk and demonstrate bad parenting in the secular court system.

There is no "god" in the legal system. Leave your god at the door or you will end up like many radical religious zealots in court... paying child support with no access or custody of the children.

 

[Tayken]

Your ex could argue you are purposely unemployed because the courts have sided with vaccination policies.

Depending on how deep the religious belief is... the other parent can leverage that zealous nature of radical religious beliefs in all sorts of directions that well result in no-custody and no-access orders.

I would recommend the OP get vaccinated and leave their "religious beliefs" at the doorstep of the court house.

 

[StillPaying]

Your duty to support your kids will prevail. You had notice. Get the shot and keep your job or find a job where it's not required. Job or not, you'll be imputed an income if needed and arrears will grow.

 

[HonestHelp]

Depending on how deep the religious belief is... the other parent can leverage that zealous nature of radical religious beliefs in all sorts of directions that well result in no-custody and no-access orders.

I would recommend the OP get vaccinated and leave their "religious beliefs" at the doorstep of the court house.

What if theoretically, the mother was also against the vaccines and is unvaccinated? Could that result in no custody/access for mother as well?

 

[rockscan]

What if theoretically, the mother was also against the vaccines and is unvaccinated? Could that result in no custody/access for mother as well?

It would depend on best interests of the children. If she is the primary care giver and is against vaccinations then you could take her to court to enforce she get the child vaccination or get herself vaccinated.

If this is simply a case of she can’t refuse you access because you aren’t vaccinated then she would have to prove she herself is vaccinated.

Doesn’t apply to your employment though. She can’t order you to get vaccinated to keep your job. She CAN request an income be imputed to you though as you are able to work you just refuse to follow policy.

 

[HonestHelp]

It would depend on best interests of the children. If she is the primary care giver and is against vaccinations then you could take her to court to enforce she get the child vaccination or get herself vaccinated.

If this is simply a case of she can�t refuse you access because you aren�t vaccinated then she would have to prove she herself is vaccinated.

Doesn�t apply to your employment though. She can�t order you to get vaccinated to keep your job. She CAN request an income be imputed to you though as you are able to work you just refuse to follow policy.

She is the primary caregiver and we're both on the same page for the covid vaccines. I would never refuse access to my childs mother unless shes an imminent threat to my childs safety and wellbeing.
Yes i am able to work and no i have not directly refused to follow policy. I have requested religious accommodation under that same policy, however my employer, is refusing to provide accommodation up to the point of undue hardship, which is their duty to provide such accommodation.

I have been successfully working remotely from home since the beginning of this pandemic. There has been no added cost for my employer to provide such accommodation as we have been successfully conducting business remotely with over 80% of staff working remotely. If there is a risk of health and safety to other employees, the employer could simply provide religious accommodation by allowing me to continue working remotely. So in this case, the employer cannot claim undue hardship for not being able to accommodate.

 

[rockscan]

This religious accommodation has not been found to be legit as per the human rights tribunal. The idea that major religious entities like the Catholic church support the vaccination means it is not an acceptable accommodation. Your employer is not refusing to accommodate you. You have an unreasonable request to be accommodated. I have yet to hear of a case won by employees requesting accommodation or removal from a vaccination policy. Same with the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal. That group even put out a preliminary statement which basically said they would hold up vaccination policies.

Just because you believe you should be accommodated does not mean your employer is legally obligated to do so. And just because you can work from home is not a reasonable excuse. If you work for an organization that requires all employees to be vaccinated as part of their employment with the organization, it doesn’t matter what you do or where you do it, it is a condition of employment. Much like taking training, following organization rules and policies. I have only seen accommodations for those with severe allergies and even then it is a time extension to seek out a medical expert.

More than likely your employment will be terminated in 13 weeks in which case you will need to find a new job. Either way you will be ordered to pay cs based on what you are capable of earning. Better start looking at plan b and possibly plan c.

 

[Kkc]

I wont comment on vaccinate or not vaccinate

I will note that you have been getting free legal advice from people who frequent the forums and have gained insight over the years.

You are making rebuttals asking for further exceptions to the rules and entrenching yourself but each time you are given more advice on what will happen and why it will happen.

I feel sorry that you are in this predicament but you will have to find work that will allow this accommodation, get the vaccine or build up a super high tab on arrears.

The other option is if the ex is sympathetic to your cause about the vaccine and gives you a pass until you can sort the situation out...this sounds like it would be best, but...

 

[HonestHelp]

This religious accommodation has not been found to be legit as per the human rights tribunal. The idea that major religious entities like the Catholic church support the vaccination means it is not an acceptable accommodation. Your employer is not refusing to accommodate you. You have an unreasonable request to be accommodated. I have yet to hear of a case won by employees requesting accommodation or removal from a vaccination policy. Same with the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal. That group even put out a preliminary statement which basically said they would hold up vaccination policies.

Just because you believe you should be accommodated does not mean your employer is legally obligated to do so. And just because you can work from home is not a reasonable excuse. If you work for an organization that requires all employees to be vaccinated as part of their employment with the organization, it doesn�t matter what you do or where you do it, it is a condition of employment. Much like taking training, following organization rules and policies. I have only seen accommodations for those with severe allergies and even then it is a time extension to seek out a medical expert.

More than likely your employment will be terminated in 13 weeks in which case you will need to find a new job. Either way you will be ordered to pay cs based on what you are capable of earning. Better start looking at plan b and possibly plan c.

The religious accommodation has not been found to be legit, but have they been proven to be illegitimate by tribunal/courts?

According to the CHRC :

Is there a Duty to Accommodate requirement for people who cannot receive a vaccine?
Employers have a duty to accommodate only those people who are unable to receive a vaccine for reasons relating to a prohibited ground of discrimination under the Canadian Human Rights Act.
Employers and service providers will need to explore reasonable options for accommodating such people, unless doing so would cause undue hardship to the employer or service provider considering health, safety and cost.

According to the OHRC:

Personal preferences and singular beliefs not protected
The OHRC and relevant human rights laws recognize the importance of balancing people’s right to non-discrimination and civil liberties with public health and safety, including the need to address evidence-based risks associated with COVID-19.

Receiving a COVID-19 vaccine is voluntary. At the same time, the OHRC’s position is that a person who chooses not to be vaccinated based on personal preference does not have the right to accommodation under the Code. The OHRC is not aware of any tribunal or court decision that found a singular belief against vaccinations or masks amounted to a creed within the meaning of the Code.

While the Code prohibits discrimination based on creed, personal preferences or singular beliefs do not amount to a creed for the purposes of the Code.

Even if a person could show they were denied a service or employment because of a creed-based belief against vaccinations, the duty to accommodate does not necessarily require they be exempted from vaccine mandates, certification or COVID testing requirements. The duty to accommodate can be limited if it would significantly compromise health and safety amounting to undue hardship – such as during a pandemic.

My religious beliefs are not singular/personal - they are tied to a sincerely held religion/creed(Not Catholic or Christian)

The info on the CHRC/OHRC are not legal rulings either.

 

[Kkc]

i recall someone trying the religion creed at the hospital and similar points that you are making and it was quickly refuted

this is not a scenario that will play out well for you and i am sympathetic to your situation

i am also impressed that rockscan got it on the first guess

 

[rockscan]

i am also impressed that rockscan got it on the first guess

My job includes HR and I have been a part of ALLLLLLLLLL of these arguments.

What you posted from the OHRT is pretty clear—they do not consider personal beliefs a creed. What they are saying is your religion is a personal belief and they do not consider it. This is not the same as many of the other religious accommodations (for instance accommodating workers who have to pray or wear specific clothing). You can argue all you want, the bottom line is the two human rights organizations do not see religion as a legitimate argument against the vaccination. Therefore an employer will not be ordered to accommodate you.

Like I said, start making some plans or selling belongings because you will be required to pay support. The only “accommodation” for non payment of support is for those on Ontario Works or ODSP. Even people on EI have to pay it and sometimes that’s most of their income!

 

[Kkc]

as an aside, our pediatrician took 27 minutes to convince her to let them be vaccinated

their school just got shut down and she remains unvaccinated for a bogus exemption and exposes kids to non vaxxed

there is no majority parent and the sep agreement is mute on decision making so it is presumed shared

i wonder what the outcome will be if i push through court..for sure the best interest of kids issue will be questioned on her

 

[HonestHelp]

My job includes HR and I have been a part of ALLLLLLLLLL of these arguments.

What you posted from the OHRT is pretty clear�they do not consider personal beliefs a creed. What they are saying is your religion is a personal belief and they do not consider it. This is not the same as many of the other religious accommodations (for instance accommodating workers who have to pray or wear specific clothing). You can argue all you want, the bottom line is the two human rights organizations do not see religion as a legitimate argument against the vaccination. Therefore an employer will not be ordered to accommodate you.

Like I said, start making some plans or selling belongings because you will be required to pay support. The only �accommodation� for non payment of support is for those on Ontario Works or ODSP. Even people on EI have to pay it and sometimes that�s most of their income!

It is not a singular/personal belief though it is a religious sincerely held belief.
How would it be considered a singular belief if i have a religious leader who has personally endorsed a letter written to my employer?