Self Representation - Feedback

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Serene

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I have seen many posts on people who are self representing at an upcoming trial, but I have not seen much on people who have done it...

We are contemplating self representating to save on costs. We are drowning in legal fees and are not getting any where. To make a long story short, everything is a battle with the mother of the children. Everything. Recently she has involved CAS and other authorities and made serious allegations which have all went unfounded. We are confident that even a layman can prove that her preoccupation with our lives and the father's relationship with the children is unhealthy and the foundation for the "high conflict" issues surrounding anything and everything to do with the children...

We have always maintained that the children should have equal and unfettered access to both parents. She on the other hand, has resolved that the father should have minimal contact with the children (much less than he has currently despite a liberal separation agreement that provides unlimited time with the children of the marriage).

I'm curious what people's experiences are having gone through a trial, having let go of their legal rep in advance. We have always had strong representation thus far, but we have gotten no where essentially, and not because our lawyers weren't good, but in reality because the mother just refuses to do anything, even refuses to comply with the separation agreement on the smallest of things...

We'd like my partner to represent me and I see that we need special permission. We will ask for that. We'd also like to continue offers to settle and negotiating, just not interested in paying a lawyer for this...

Thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
I have not done it but you might want to consider using your lawyer only for court.

Do all the paperwork etc yourself and have him be there in front of a judge.

I'm not sure all lawyers would agree with this though...Just a thought.
 
We thought of that as well... I suspect our lawyer won't go for it. They can't keep their schedule open (or will say this anyhow) for the trial that is upcoming and they will argue a thousand reasons why this is not feasible (for them). And we are willing to take our chances. Thus far, we have done a good job of remaining neutral and compromising on many things. The one thing we will not compromise on is removing joint custody for the mother to have sole custody. Nor are we willing to reduce access to father. The issues are simple when you look at the big picture and the mother has been very unsuccessful at proving us to be unfit...

I wonder how we know when to file our papers (the timeline to do so) so we don't miss any deadlines...
 
Our next court appearance is our trial in 3 months time.

The judge made several recommendations at the case conference and we attempted to propose an offer to settle based on those recommendations (and just those) and it was refused.

We also had to have emergency court motions (we requested leave since we were already scheduled for trial) since the mother refused many things, including summer and holiday schedules...
 
workingdad successfully went through it. His case is on canlii as well.I think informeddad75 did as well
 
How would I get in touch with them? I'm new to this site and for the life of me I cannot figure out how to PM them... I would love to read up on these and reach out to them after having a good read of their info.

At the trial do you bring up jurisprudence from canlii? Where do you slip in those references?
 
workingdad's case is indeed there, but its a highly unusual one. I have tried representing my self in the past for a few appearances before two different judges. I will advise against it, i sat there for a few other cases, i will advise highly against representing yourself specially if the other party is represented. here is why
1- the judges very frequently take liberties against a self representing litigant which they cant take against represented litigents i.e. not allowing the self-rep to make an argument and constantly shut them down, make orders that neither party has asked for.
2- you wont be able to handle the maneuvers the other lawyer will pull on you.
3- if it comes to costs the judge is more likely reject your argument on costs of the applicant and thus impose pretty much every thing the other counsel has asked for.
 
Perhaps I should explain a bit more:

The mother has ample spousal and child support (over 3K a month) and is able to make as much as she wants through work (this was negotiated in the SA) and her new husband. We on the other hand are on a limited income given we are paying an enormous amount of SS and CS and now legal costs.
It cost us over 15K just to secure a summer schedule. And now we are headed for a trial and even if we give the 20K retainer, it will run short and fast. Essentially, we will run out of money before the trial takes place any how. So might as well pocket it now and put it towards good use.

What do you mean by maneuvers? What can they pull? The law is the law, yes there is ambiguity, yes there is subjectivity...but if mom is denying dad access, has called every authority there is and not one of them finds fault with him or his family...and if we have communications and police reports for abusive and toxic behaviours from mom, and not one from dad, what can they really pull?
 
Serene said:
How would I get in touch with them? I'm new to this site and for the life of me I cannot figure out how to PM them... I would love to read up on these and reach out to them after having a good read of their info.

At the trial do you bring up jurisprudence from canlii? Where do you slip in those references?
Click to expand...

I think your statement above is good reason not to represent yourself.

You need to have an inside out understanding of the rules and deadlines.
 
FB_ I agree in part with you. But again, this won't be a matter of choice soon. We will be forced to as I understand that lawyers don't work for free :)
 
I agree with the previous comments on procedural/rules difficulties. In Family Court, there are no rules or law, nothing is black and white, and 'should' means nothing. I tried to represent myself and was getting taken advantage of on procedural issues. It's hard to argue with the judge to uphold the law on technical procedural issues AND still look like a reasonable person (and my ex's argument is that I am unreasonable). Much better to have a lawyer who is confident on what he can press for safely.
 
Serene said:
FB_ I agree in part with you. But again, this won't be a matter of choice soon. We will be forced to as I understand that lawyers don't work for free :)
Click to expand...

I guess you have to ask yourself is what's your worst case scenario in court self rep vs. settling (what they want not you). Then consider what it might cost to get what you think you should get in court with a lawyer. Unfortunately most of these are unknowns and a big risk imo.
 
Again - if we cannot afford one, and we won't in the very short term, we will be on our own. Better to plan ahead now and read what we can, than to wait for it to happen and be unprepared...

In hindsight, I think I worded my original post poorly, hence the responses. We are really reaching out and looking for help, pointers, assistance. This is inevitable. We will be without representation soon enough.
 
More info - Mom is not even entertaining what the judge recommended at the CC. In fact, she has done the opposite. Even went as far as to deny access many times since the CC and put it in writing. And "just because".

This isn't about money. CC and SS are up to date and paid every month. Never has there been any arrears. This is about reducing a father's access to his children when the judge said dad needs more time with his kids...the only issue is that access is not worded tightly in the SA so mom typically interferes and dad does not have unfettered access. That is really the only issue.

Ya, she is trying to chance joint to sole but that isn't going to happen. Dad has always cooperated and shared info and assumed all costs for the children. On the other hand, she has not. She continues to schedule and interfere with dad's access. It really can't get any worse. So the odds of doing poorly in court really mean reverting to the status quo lol
 
If it is not about money, then money is irrelevent to your case, and you should stop mentioning money, because it is cluttering up your thread, your argument, your thinking, and doubtless your court pleading.

If it is solely about access, then speak solely about access, issues of access, case law about access, your factual records about access, and what you are seeking regarding access.

I'm not being mean, I am helping you.

Regarding whether or not you should self-rep, you first have to decide whether or not you should go to trial at all. This won't be free. You will lose time off work, you will have to dedicate yourself to this full time. It will stress you and possibly to the point of being ill.

You have to accept that you may lose and you will pay your ex's court costs. This issue has to be important enough to risk that. If it is, then you must go ahead and not be concerned about costs. You must dedicate yourself to what you are fighting for. There is no half way.
 
Mess - Brilliant! I needed to hear that. And in looking back at our court papers, that is all we have really discussed thus far. And in fact, we continue to say that the children deserve both parents. Perhaps this will need to be adjusted as time goes on if mom keeps interfering - denying and tagging along to dad's access.

I need more of this. I have done a lot of research on canlii and found cases that apply, are in same province and are recent. One is VERY much the same. In fact, the judge said that the status quo for access should not be maintained if it is not in the child's best interests... and I think this is the issue. What is happening with access is not what is supposed to happen with the access (dad should be getting more and unfettered per the SA) so at the very least she would have to prove why dad shouldn't see his children and why she needs to interfere with it. Thus far, she hasn't been successful. The judge and CAS had strong words with her, which of course, fell on deaf ears...
 
As usual, nice advice from mess.

Those who say it is tough to self rep are right. I heard ppl getting PTSD from it. But more and more people do it, most because they have to, others because they think they are too smart. I thought my case is easy but watching one lawyer speaking to the judge, then the judge turned to the self represented litigant and asked what does he have to comment on that. If it was me the answer would be "I have no freaking clue what the other lawyer just said" because I didn't inderstand it. I can't imagine how frustated the judge would be.

But if I have to self rep I will. I assume you decided 100% to go ahead alone?
 
Iceberg, now you have me worried! We are well educated, but of course, not in law. Really, you didn't understand what the other lawyer said? Because it was a bunch of legal jargon?

I did represent someone about 15 years ago. But the laws were different then and judges made decisions at most every court date. They at least told you - YOU do it, or I do it now kinda thing...

I just can't fathom going into debt for this any more than we have. The climates at our employment is going down and I'm worried we will be laid off like the rest of them. We have to keep our nose above water so to speak. And we've already depleted one kid's education fund... this is not at all ideal...

Keep the advice coming!
 
I have done a lot of research on canlii and found cases that apply, are in same province and are recent.
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You have not done enough preparation.

There are three aspects to the court system:
1 - Evidence;
2 - The law; and
3 - How 2 applies to 1.

You must prove everything you are relying upon in 1 if the other side does not admit it. That is a long and detailed process. You also must address evidence brought by the other side, and have contingencies in the event certain facts are not proved.

For 2, that is your research on CanLII.

The hardest part is 3. These are your arguments; what you practice in front of the mirror every night for a month, while someone familiar with 1 and 2 interrupts you and asks you questions about parts you spoke on 5 minutes ago and parts you will get to in 20 minutes.

As a rule of thumb, a lawyer spends two days preparing for every day in court. They have practice; you do not. Prepare very far in advance, and as thoroughly as possible.
 
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