Refraining Order re: License Suspension for Nonpayment of Support
- Thread starter su27
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involveddad75
New member
You could even contact the ULSC and do volunteer work there, they are always looking for people to help write the training materials for lawyers, it also gets your name out there with other lawyers, allows you to work under people with experience.
Any experience is better than no experience. Plus you can get to know well known lawyers and ask them how they started off.
There really is no excuse for not making an income.
Can't find words......
The dude didn't want to wait 1-2 years until somebody wins his case and pays him the contingency fee, so instead of that he is sitting home waiting 1-2 years - for some kind of miracle...
I couldn't take a case because I had legal fees coming up to pay regarding lawyer licensing and insurance totaling $6,000 so I simply could not afford this amount while also working for free hoping that sometime in a year or two I might see a bit of money. In addition to this, this case would have required hundreds if not thousands of additional dollars in research, paper, gas to get to courthouses, and filing fees.
It was simply an amount of money that I could not afford.
I could not afford an office, so I ended up meeting the few clients who wanted to meet up in coffeeshops and starbucks cafes. Sometimes I provided free consults, but found that most clients were just seeking a second opinion or free legal advice. After a while, I told one client that an initial consult would cost $100 and could last several hours if necessary (I thought this was reasonable) and he agreed. But when he showed up, he didn't bring the money. I listened to him and gave him good advice (I had worked on a similar albeit smaller case while articling) but he called me a few days later and told me he had decided to go with another more senior lawyer.
And this was my experience: I felt that most people only called me for free legal advice or to work for free on matters that would take possibly years to see any money - and that's if we won anything at all. I simply could not take this risk. And I could not take loans for an office or paper supplies and coverage for filing fees as I have no assets, just debts. I went back to applying for jobs never believing that I would go for 7 months without working - the longest time I have ever been jobless or out of school.
I have heard that 90 percent of sole proprietorship businesses fail and I would not be surprised if the failure rate of solo practice lawyers was similar. It may come to a surprise to some of you but becoming a lawyer in Canada is no longer the road to wealth or even a decent living that it once was.
I have no hesitation in stating that most of my friends now wish they had never gone to law school.
I had given up on volunteer opportunities since my resume already had quite a bit of volunteer experience and I thought it was time I started getting paid for my services and hard work. And volunteering for a position now - even though it will help me keep my legal skills sharp - still won't solve my problem here of earning an income. I never expected to leave grad school with a $100,000 per year salary but I didn't expect it to be this difficult to get a modest paying job either.
I have tried out several different versions of my resume, but I literally have no experience doing manual labour. I once worked in sales (well over 10 years ago) and a couple of office positions (almost 10 years ago) so when I leave this on my resume employers know I'm a little too old and inexperienced for even the most menial jobs. And when they ask me what I do now and what I have been doing the last few years I cannot lie or else I face possible disciplinary action by the law society in my province.
Basically, what I have found is that many law-related positions I apply for turn me down because I don't have enough experience in their area of law. Non-law related employers seem to turn me down because they feel I'm either too old, inexperienced, or will quit and leave as soon as I get a job offer in the legal field.
I asked many employers for feedback after interviews and although most of them have been the usual diplomatic ones (ie "you were great but not the right fit, best of luck" etc) and what I just mentioned about age, inexperience, or the fear of me leaving as soon as something better came along seemed to be the usual responses.
Anyways, I can go on and on about the problems I've faced in finding stable long term work but the bottom line is my situation the last 7 months has been terrible and I have had zero job offers. Even a couple of document review jobs that I thought would work out and bring me a badly needed injection of quick cash dried up. Recruiters tell me it's a terrible time for recruitment and to just keep applying until something comes up, but I've been doing that for a while and have come up empty.
Just in the last month, I have had three interviewers ask me for references. In the past, this would mean an almost certain job offer. But they never contacted me after i provided the references and my references were never contacted. Today, even a potential employer asking for a reference after a well done interview means nothing.
I totally agree with the maxim that you should make your own luck. But for the reasons I have explained to everyone this hasn't exactly been that easy to do.
blinkandimgone
Moderator
I'd give you a job just to prove you wrong, that it's an attitude and perspective issue.
EVERY employer you've interviewed with has turned you down, and THEY are the ones doing it wrong? Hmmmm.
Start a dog walking business. Or clean houses. Or mow lawns. Or shovel driveways. Or help seniors run errands. Or babysit. Nobody will care WHAT you do, people will just care that you DO something. And you will find once you DO something, other things become easier to do as well. You are waiting for someone to give you the opportunity, but if you aren't out there looking for it and making your own, it will NEVER happen.
Then you'll have THOSE things to put on your resume. But letting a big.....blank....space......build up on your resume while you wait for someone else to offer you something WILL NOT HELP.
EVERY employer you've interviewed with has turned you down, and THEY are the ones doing it wrong? Hmmmm.
Start a dog walking business. Or clean houses. Or mow lawns. Or shovel driveways. Or help seniors run errands. Or babysit. Nobody will care WHAT you do, people will just care that you DO something. And you will find once you DO something, other things become easier to do as well. You are waiting for someone to give you the opportunity, but if you aren't out there looking for it and making your own, it will NEVER happen.
Then you'll have THOSE things to put on your resume. But letting a big.....blank....space......build up on your resume while you wait for someone else to offer you something WILL NOT HELP.
arabian
New member
Have you thought about seeking work in an area of social work, perhaps in the inner city area? You certainly wouldn't be making big money but it sounds like your self-esteem could use a work over. Try looking for work in an inner city area where people at risk need some help. Perhaps some place like your local John Howard Society. Also check out with corrections counsellors (Provincial and Federal). Shitty work but it would be a start and you could make some valuable contacts.
Often philanthropic organizations look to hire seasonal/contract people to generate donations. Of course don't forget to check with your University Alumni as there are often jobs that don't get advertised on employment websites.
I've heard that employment searches using websites aren't very good anymore. Maybe you have to go back to the old fashioned thing of delivering resume to prospective employers. HR managers rely too heavily (in my opinion) on software programs to prescreen candidates.
Often philanthropic organizations look to hire seasonal/contract people to generate donations. Of course don't forget to check with your University Alumni as there are often jobs that don't get advertised on employment websites.
I've heard that employment searches using websites aren't very good anymore. Maybe you have to go back to the old fashioned thing of delivering resume to prospective employers. HR managers rely too heavily (in my opinion) on software programs to prescreen candidates.
But you won't offer me a job even if I asked you for one. That's a common response I have received from people who can't believe I'm in the situation that I'm in: they tell me they find it hard to believe that I can't get a job, yet when I ask them if they have any work for me to do they give me the usual answers, ie "we don't really need any help right now" or "we have a hiring procedure that we are required to follow" or "you don't have the skill set or experience that we're looking for." And when they tell me this, I think they fail to realize that this is the same answer that everyone has been giving me.
No, you're putting words in my mouth I never said that.
If I was an employer looking to hire me for most of the positions I applied for, I wouldn't hire me either. Who will hire a man in his 30's to work as a machine operator who has no experience at all with manual labour? Who will hire a server in his 30s who is a lawyer and has no experience serving people? Certainly not me.
All the jobs that I think I would be a great fit for, such as entry level or 1-3 year lawyer positions, have A LOT of competition. Many have obtained job offers, but many have not. I, unfortunately, now count myself among those who have not.
How much money do you think a person can make dog walking, or babysitting? These jobs are usually done by 12 or 13 year olds for a reason: because they don't pull in much money. If I were to start a dog walking business or babysitting it might bring in a bit of money if I was really dedicated and managed to find some willing customers, but it would certainly not even bring in enough to even bring in a part time job's worth of salary.
Arabian,
I would love to work in the social field or anywhere at all that I could. I recently interviewed for a position as a history teacher at a local private school, but I could not get that position either. In the waiting area, I met a man who had 40 years of teaching experience applying for the same position. I had excellent grades in history as an undergrad, and have an almost photographic memory with regard to history but I have almost no teaching experience, and certainly nothing to compete with 40 years. In essence I have pretty much applied for every position you can think of with various versions of my resume but have had literally zero job offers these last 7 months.
I am just as shocked as everyone to hear my story, please believe me when I tell you that I had every intention of earning a very good living or I would not have risked everything by borrowing so much in order to earn not one but two professional degrees. And yes you're right my self esteem has taken quite a beating. Like I mentioned before I never expected a job to be handed to me but I didn't expect it to be this hard to find modest employment either.
Rioe
Well-known member
And doing those things will give you networking opportunities and experience running your own business, both very useful!
blinkandimgone
Moderator
Unless you're up for a 4 hour commute each way, I don't have a job to offer you. But I did point you in the right direction in a previous post with the link
Nope, you didn't exactly say those words, however....you still don't have a job and it's all due to the employers not hiring you.
Then apply for different jobs, stop pigeon holing yourself.
Then perhaps try asking someone ELSE what you would be a good fit for, because clearly what YOU think you're a good fit for isn't working for you.
I've yet to see a successful daycare run by 12 or 13 year olds, but I've definitely seen this attitude before. What YOU don't seem to realize is that nobody said it mattered HOW MUCH you make. Just get off your ass and make something - starting with an effort. YOU have to take the first step, suck it up and do something, regardless of how degrading YOU think those jobs are, or how above them you are. It's where EVERYONE starts.
You say you won't make much money, but I guarantee it'll be more than sitting in your Mom's house not working and making nothing.
The point isn't about making a fortune, it's about SHOWING the court, the judge, the ex, FRO that you are MAKING AN EFFORT to get on your feet. I dunno how much more clear to make it for you.
If you're not going to 'get' it at this point, perhaps you need to get dragged through the process and have a judge tell you the same thing.
arabian
New member
I meant to tell you that just about every university in the country hires people to be a scribe or note-taker for disabled student services. Pay is generally between 25 - 30/hr. You have to type around 60 wpm and own your own laptop. You certainly would be comfortable (and highly experienced at) sitting in classrooms taking notes. I think they usually recruit for these jobs in the summer but it wouldn't hurt to check it out as they may recruit year-round. You take the notes, usually with the disabled student sitting beside you, and you are usually responsible to give the notes to the student within a certain time period (edited I believe).
I don't have the money to start up a daycare. If I could do it this big then it might be more profitable, but the licensing, insurance, staffing, and other costs of doing business on this scale would require much more money than I would be able to afford.
I never said or even meant to imply that certain jobs were degrading or beneath me. I have applied to but haven't been able to get menial work not because i think it's denigrating, but because of the reasons I previously mentioned.
I understand what you are saying though, I really need to get a job anything and Arabian provided some good suggestions.
blinkandimgone
Moderator
Seriously?? Go to a second hand store, or talk to your friends who have kids. Geta bunch of toys and pick up any supplies such as booster seats for the kitchen if/when you need them - or ask the parents to send it along with the kids.
Do some advertising (yes - there is LOTS of free advertising space out there), make some posters and put them up. Open your front door and Voila, you're a babysitter/daycare.
You seem to have this notion that a business HAS to be a certain thing, it isn't. Call around to your friends, see who is in need of daycare, who is in need of walking or driving their kids to school or bus stops.
People do this ALL the time, without overthinking it or coming up with a million reasons why it couldn't possibly work. I ran a daycare out of my home for years - and I've never been to college, much less university! There was no overhead! There were no licensing, staffing or insurance issues!
It absolutely amazes me, and I suspect if you spent even half as much time just doing some of this stuff as you do finding all the reasons why you could never do this stuff, you'd be well on your way already.
I change my mind, I wouldn't hire you based on your complete lack of willingness to do anything for yourself. You seem to need someone to hold your hand and show you where the bathroom is and how to tie your shoes. And yet when someone tries, you turn them down.
I suspect your attitude has way more to do with you not being hired than your being under or overqualified.
And the reasons you mentioned are bullshit. You can't get a job because of what is or isn't on your resume. Well stop putting everything and the kitchen sink on your resume, as I mentioned earlier. When people ask what you were doing during that time you tell them you were doing some training, re-training, schooling etc, be vague and don't tell them you have a law degree - you're not obligated to.
Voila! You've got a job flipping burgers, parking cars, shoveling snow or whatever. And then - voila! You've got other stuff to put on your resume. Wash, rinse, repeat.
It is NOT rocket surgery. You have somehow managed to educate yourself out of a job and any useful skills - like critical thinking.
Were you in my province, Ontario? If so and you opened up a child care centre in your home without applying for a license and obtaining all of the proper zoning and other permit requirements you may have been in violation of the law.
Regardless, I don't think anyone I know would be willing to leave their kids with me, a male who has zero experience in child care.
Even if you don't need to pay licensing and permit costs, you still need to come up with money to feed these children. To advertise. You need space to put them in. And what if my mother doesn't want her home being used as a daycare nursery? Am I to keep a bunch of small children running around in a tiny circle in my bedroom all day? Where will the parents pick up their kids, shall I let them into my room so they can see how their kids have been spending their day huddled between my bed and my dresser?
You're telling me I'm being ridiculous, but you're the one who's being ridiculous in my opinion.
I simply don't have the means for this type of venture. And although it may have worked for you, I seriously doubt it would work for me because of all the legal and practical reasons I just mentioned, plus the fact that (a) I don't know many people with small kids, (b) I know even fewer who would be willing to pay me to look after their kids, and (c) I would have to pay money for advertising that I don't have in order to fund a business venture that may not work and that I am not willing to take a risk on. There are also liability risks that come up in case something goes drastically wrong (not entirely unthinkable when dealing with small children), yet another risk I am not willing to take in order to make a bit of money.
I am not saying these things because I don't want to try them; on the contrary, I am saying these things from my own experience trying to start up my own business without the benefit of having any start up money.
These are not excuses, but rather very real reasons why something cannot be done on a practical level.
I am simply telling you what employers have told me as to why they have not hired me.
Inexperience and an unwillingness to break the law are not "bullshit" reasons, but very real factors which employers have stated are very real barriers to me obtaining gainful employment.
I appreciate everyone's attempt to provide suggestions - and some of them I will indeed apply - but giving me ideas like walking dogs or babysitting simply isn't a viable solution. It may provide a bit of spending money, but I have OSAP payments, child support payments, and basic living expenses among others that will require more than $20 here and $20 there.
I have tried many different versions of my resume, and I have listed why I think they have not worked based on limited feedback from recruiters and prospective employers.
blinkandimgone
Moderator
takeontheworld
New member
Lol im cracking up .
standing on the sidelines
New member
then go to a temp agency and stop your excuses. Go online and check out the job bank. Just so you dont have an excuse like you dont know how to find it online, here is the link. No excuse in this day and age not to be able to find work. You want to work as a lawyer, I am sure there are specialized websites for searching for a job like that. Go to monster and post your resume there.
Job Search: Find a Job from Millions of Job Listings Online | Monster.ca
Job Bank - Home
Job Search: Find a Job from Millions of Job Listings Online | Monster.ca
Job Bank - Home
Okay, I know I said earlier I thought this guy might be a troll and I should probably just drop it there, but I keep being struck by things in here which don't add up:
-says he keeps getting turned down for jobs for which he is qualified, but his examples are of applying for jobs for which he is not qualified (such as a history teacher - an MBA, law degree and "photographic memory" don't qualify you to teach history. And the story about meeting another applicant with 40 years of teaching experiences sounds dubious, unless this person started teaching when he was 12).
-reports a string of experiences in which prospective employers/clients meet him once for an interview or consultation, and then turn him down. In other words, he can get an initial face-to-face, but once people meet him, nothing goes forwards.
-doesn't seem to grasp the idea that if you can't pay all your child support, you should pay at least what you can to show that you are trying (e.g. put some of your EI towards child support). In other words, the concept of the "good faith" gesture seems to elude him.
-reports an "immigration marriage" while he was still a student, followed in pretty rapid succession by the birth of a child and separation. This pattern is consistent with - I am trying to put this diplomatically here - someone whose chances on the domestic marriage market are not too good.
-appears quite dependent on others at a time of life (mid-30s) when this is developmentally inappropriate (parents for basic life support, complete strangers on the internet for life advice).
-has lots of time to spend on the internet talking to people he doesn't know.
-goes from one degree to another (I teach in postsecondary ed and have seen this pattern in quite a few people who for various reasons are failing to launch - staying in school is familiar and comforting).
My suggestion to the OP, assuming he is not a troll, is that once he deals with his immediate problem - which everyone else has spelled out clearly for him: get a job, any job, and show that you're making an effort to pay - is that he might consider seeing a psychologist. Some of the details here are consistent with conditions such as social anxiety disorder or milder forms of Asperger's (the inability to understand what is socially appropriate, which is the common thread in all the examples above). Some psychological help now might enable him to develop the skills that will help him be a functioning adult.
Note that I am *not* trying to make an amateur diagnosis here as I know nothing about this person. I'm just observing that many of the things he's mentioned point in the direction of someone who has deeper problems than just divorce.
-says he keeps getting turned down for jobs for which he is qualified, but his examples are of applying for jobs for which he is not qualified (such as a history teacher - an MBA, law degree and "photographic memory" don't qualify you to teach history. And the story about meeting another applicant with 40 years of teaching experiences sounds dubious, unless this person started teaching when he was 12).
-reports a string of experiences in which prospective employers/clients meet him once for an interview or consultation, and then turn him down. In other words, he can get an initial face-to-face, but once people meet him, nothing goes forwards.
-doesn't seem to grasp the idea that if you can't pay all your child support, you should pay at least what you can to show that you are trying (e.g. put some of your EI towards child support). In other words, the concept of the "good faith" gesture seems to elude him.
-reports an "immigration marriage" while he was still a student, followed in pretty rapid succession by the birth of a child and separation. This pattern is consistent with - I am trying to put this diplomatically here - someone whose chances on the domestic marriage market are not too good.
-appears quite dependent on others at a time of life (mid-30s) when this is developmentally inappropriate (parents for basic life support, complete strangers on the internet for life advice).
-has lots of time to spend on the internet talking to people he doesn't know.
-goes from one degree to another (I teach in postsecondary ed and have seen this pattern in quite a few people who for various reasons are failing to launch - staying in school is familiar and comforting).
My suggestion to the OP, assuming he is not a troll, is that once he deals with his immediate problem - which everyone else has spelled out clearly for him: get a job, any job, and show that you're making an effort to pay - is that he might consider seeing a psychologist. Some of the details here are consistent with conditions such as social anxiety disorder or milder forms of Asperger's (the inability to understand what is socially appropriate, which is the common thread in all the examples above). Some psychological help now might enable him to develop the skills that will help him be a functioning adult.
Note that I am *not* trying to make an amateur diagnosis here as I know nothing about this person. I'm just observing that many of the things he's mentioned point in the direction of someone who has deeper problems than just divorce.
Tayken
Well-known member
Really, which laws? You are a lawyer so you should know this right?
In fact, you are horribly wrong. You can operate an unlicensed daycare.
Someone using Google.ca can find this information so one would assume that has a "law degree" would know this...
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/childcare/Child-care-fact-sheet.pdf
There are three kinds of people in this world Su27:
1. Those who make things happen.
2. Those who watch things happen.
3. Those who wonder what the hell just happened. (complain, moan and make bad excuses)
You are conversing with mostly people who fall into category #1.
Really, it is quite obvious why you are unable to practice law...
Good Luck!
Tayken
DowntroddenDad
New member
Feel free to PM and send me your resume. I'm not hiring, but I have done lots of hiring and I will be blunt about your resume.
Also engage my friend at aneliteresume, he will critique your resume for free.
Were I in your position, I would look at CharityVillage.com. Charities can't afford expensive people, and often have contract positions that could help you build your resume and make contacts.
Also engage my friend at aneliteresume, he will critique your resume for free.
Were I in your position, I would look at CharityVillage.com. Charities can't afford expensive people, and often have contract positions that could help you build your resume and make contacts.