Reality check: 50/50 for a 3.5 year old?

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Today I had a bit of a shock.

I was interviewing a lawyer with over 30 years of experience and who came highly recommended from a friend who used him.

His comment was that because I'm the father and my daughter is 3.5years, no judge in the Ottawa area will award me 50/50 till she is 6 or 7. The most I can hope is around 30% now.

I do not want to harm my daughter and I want what is best for her. Would she be harmed with a 50/50 custody at this age? She is a normal happy child and I have been told by many that she talks like a 5year old.

Has anyone got 50/50 custody through litigation for a child less than 5 years? What strategy did you use?
 
This is a perfect example of why I think a person should hire YOUNG lawyers. Young lawyers are more up-to-date on case law.
 
Time to find a new lawyer, a young lawyer like Arabian pointed out. They are often more up to date on recent case law. Interview another lawyer and search this site... there have been some case law posted regarding 50-50
 
Today I had a bit of a shock.

I was interviewing a lawyer with over 30 years of experience and who came highly recommended from a friend who used him.

His comment was that because I'm the father and my daughter is 3.5years, no judge in the Ottawa area will award me 50/50 till she is 6 or 7. The most I can hope is around 30% now.

I do not want to harm my daughter and I want what is best for her. Would she be harmed with a 50/50 custody at this age? She is a normal happy child and I have been told by many that she talks like a 5year old.

Has anyone got 50/50 custody through litigation for a child less than 5 years? What strategy did you use?


Get a different lawyer. First, because this lawyer obviously isn't up-to-date with the times and has their head stuck in 1960's thinking. And secondly, they either have a defeatest attitude and/or won't give their all on matters that are important to you, but they feel are not worthy.

There are members here that have shared custody of toddlers, so it is definitely something one can accomplish.

Now, there may be a bit of a hill to climb given any perceived gender biase. But if you can provide evidence that you were an involved parent and a reasonable co-parenting plan, there should be no reason to deny you the opportunity to be an equal parent.
 
Today I had a bit of a shock.

I was interviewing a lawyer with over 30 years of experience and who came highly recommended from a friend who used him.

His comment was that because I'm the father and my daughter is 3.5years, no judge in the Ottawa area will award me 50/50 till she is 6 or 7. The most I can hope is around 30% now.

I do not want to harm my daughter and I want what is best for her. Would she be harmed with a 50/50 custody at this age? She is a normal happy child and I have been told by many that she talks like a 5year old.

Has anyone got 50/50 custody through litigation for a child less than 5 years? What strategy did you use?

I have seen motions before the Superior Court of Justice where 2-2-3-3 (50-50) access schedules have been ordered for 18 month old children. So, this lawyer is (a) out of date and (b) doesn't want you as a client.

Mess posted a link to an article a while back that outlined all the Jurisprudence from the Ontario Bar Association for joint custody and equal access for minor children.

The "tender years" doctrine has not been effect since the early 90s. Time to talk to a new lawyer.

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
Just finished a 14 day trial self represented myself.
At the start our children were 2 and 3. at trial they were 3 and 4
Both are girls and I'm the father. Mom wanted sole custody.
I had 5 calls to CAS, and an OCL recommending sole custody to mom.
I ended up with education mom medical and everything else joint.
50% one week one one week off, with a 24 hour midweek visit.
If you would like to see my order I can send it to you.
Reasons for order were given orally.

I posted a strategy that I used and it can be read here.
http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f3/my-wife-dropped-bomb-dec-25-a-14027/index2.html#post121543

I used a really good free support group called Fathers Resource International.

And I waged peace not war.

It can be done. But it'll be the hardest thing you ever do.
 
Congrats on getting pretty much everything your children (and you) deserved.

Are/was there any issues on costs?

Hope you stick around, as I'm sure you have some valuable advice to offer.
 
Thank you all so much. I've got wind in my sails :)

I will not go to this lawyer. I don't have the time to do all the research to self represent so I have to get a lawyer - so its back to the drawing board.
 
Today I had a bit of a shock.

I was interviewing a lawyer with over 30 years of experience and who came highly recommended from a friend who used him.

His comment was that because I'm the father and my daughter is 3.5years, no judge in the Ottawa area will award me 50/50 till she is 6 or 7. The most I can hope is around 30% now.

I do not want to harm my daughter and I want what is best for her. Would she be harmed with a 50/50 custody at this age? She is a normal happy child and I have been told by many that she talks like a 5year old.

Has anyone got 50/50 custody through litigation for a child less than 5 years? What strategy did you use?

If you want 50/50, which seems to be the case.

Find a new lawyer. One whom actually believes he/she can win.

That's more important than whether or not he/she is correct in their assumption/opinion.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Take some time to research a 'collabrative' Family Law firm/lawyer.

Consider the typical lawyers position is to be 'adverserial'. The very nature of the profession.

that's 4 cents now.
 
The starting point is 50/50. Best interest of the child is to have 2 equally involved parents. Our child was 3 1/2 when we separated. No question of anything less than 50/50. We left each other...not our child.
 
I have seen motions before the Superior Court of Justice where 2-2-3-3 (50-50) access schedules have been ordered for 18 month old children. So, this lawyer is (a) out of date and (b) doesn't want you as a client.

Mess posted a link to an article a while back that outlined all the Jurisprudence from the Ontario Bar Association for joint custody and equal access for minor children.

The "tender years" doctrine has not been effect since the early 90s. Time to talk to a new lawyer.

Good Luck!
Tayken

where was this document i may have missed it.
 
If you decide to get a lawyer you have to research your lawyer. If you’re a father ask how many cases they have won when they were representing a father. A lawyer that only wins when they act for the mother isn’t going to help you if your father.
Here are some basis questions to ask.
Have you won equal shared parenting for a father before?
Can you show me an order where you won for a father and it wasn’t on consent? Meaning they had the judge side with them. If the lawyer states they can’t show you the order, state in Canada all orders are public knowledge. But if they want to cover the names give them a big black marker that you brought in with you.
My lawyer told my parents and myself that I would lose. But in the beginning when I asked her how many trials she had done, her response was “Either you have faith in my ability or you don’t.” if you get answer like that get up and run.
Self representing yourself isn’t that hard, and it can be easier than you think. You have to remember the judge is basically making a ruling one who they thinks is the best parent, and they don’t get to know you and follow you around or even see you with your children. If you have a lawyer the judge just gets to know your lawyer. If you self represent and act professionally and be prepared, then he gets to know you. If your ex claims your abusive and a lier ect. ect. and you come off as respectful, and reasonable and flexable. Then you become the best evidence you can have.
A lawyer once gave me this advice about how to conduct yourself in court.
Always remember the only person who really matters in court is the judge. So talk to them. Don’t have a conversation with your ex or her lawyer. Direct their questions towards the judge. Look at them.
If your on the stand and her lawyer is asking you a question, don’t answer them directly, turn and look towards the judge and answer him, then turn back to the lawyer for the next question. This will throw your ex’s lawyer off.
 
My divorce order is not published on CanLII. I know many people who are divorced and their divorce order is not published on CanLII.

Perhaps you would clarify by what you mean that all divorces are public?
 
All court records except CAS proceedings are public record. Meaning if you know the right court house, you can actually go down and look at the continuing record even though you’re not parties to it.
If you have the case docket information you can take it to any lawyer and look it up, or contact the court house and maybe you can convinced them to fax it to you. Or go to a law library, or simply go to the court house and request it. If it's old it might take some time to get it out of storage but it'll be there.
Yes Canlli is great but they don't and couldn't publish everything. WestLaw and other cost money but they publish a lot more.


As I have stated before. When your in this sort of thing you have three jobs 1. Father
2. Legal researcher
3. Real job

I'll add one more thing here, there is caselaw which details when Joint custody should be awarded and there are only three case where it should. Put I add only one of the points have to be present for joint custody to be awarded.

Garland v. Brouwer, 2011 ONSC 6437
[27] The Ontario Court of Appeal decisions in the cases of Kaplanis v. Kaplanis (2005), 194 O.A.C. 106, and Ladisa v. Ladisa (2005), 193 O.A.C. 336 set out guidelines as to when a joint custody order may be appropriate. Those guidelines were summarized in the Ontario Court of Justice decision in Habel v. Hagedorn,[2005] O.J. No. 3556 (O.C.J.), and later adopted by this court in the case of Patterson v. Patterson, [2006] O.J. No. 5454 (S.C.J.).
[28] In summary, those cases determined that a joint custody order may be appropriate in three main types of cases:
I. Where the parties agree to a joint custody order;
2. Where there is a positive history of cooperation between the parties; and
3. Where it is appropriate to preserve one parent's relationship with the child.

[29] In my view, the case before me falls into both category #2 and category #3 above. There is a positive history of cooperation between the parties, and a joint custody order is appropriate to preserve Garland's relationship with Teegan.
[30] Regarding the cooperation of the parties, Quinn J. wrote in the case of Brook v. Brook, [2006] O.J. No. 1514, and I adopt, that" ... one must take care not to hold the parents to an unrealistic level of mutual cooperation. After all, they are estranged. The cooperation needed is workable, not blissful; adequate not perfect."
[31] I add that one parent should not be rewarded for being uncooperative. That is, a parent should not be granted sole custody if that parent has engineered the circumstances so that the parties appear to be uncooperative.
[32] In this case there have been times during which the parties have been able to talk to one another directly about various parenting issues. At present, they have difficulty talking face to face, but this is understandable given that they are engulfed in a litigation process in which they take adverse positions. Despite the ongoing court proceedings the parties are still able to communicate through the use of a communications book, which they have incorporated into their parenting strategy.
 
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