Pretty livid right now

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ProudMomof3

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I am under a huge amount of stress with my current custody/access battle at the moment, but now I'm furious with my first ex, whom I've been divorced from for 15 yrs.

My ex re-married almost immediately after our divorce was final, and his wife and himself both make substantial salaries. My ex asked me years ago if we could stop going through FRO for child support, because he received a raise every year and didn't want to go through the hassle of filing papers each year. I agreed, because he was pretty good about giving me support cheques (after he conveniently forgot each month and I had to threaten to go back to FRO).

Well, I remarried as well, and so I never asked for my previous ex to help with section 7 expenses. Partially because my then current ex didn't want my other ex to know what he was making (call it ego), and partially, because my ex gave me such a hassle every time he had to pay anything extra. So, my mother would generally help me with section 7 expenses for my son. The only thing I ever demanded he help with, was when my son needed braces. Even then, because benefits covered half, I only asked that he pay a half of the balance, despite the fact that he made twice the income we had.

Now I'm single and currently unemployed. I can no longer cover the section 7 expenses by myself. My son is nearly 16. He's a great kid who never asks for anything. He's given up many opportunities without telling me about them, because he didn't want me having to put money out. This isn't fair. His father makes a LOT of money and I will always do what I can to get my kids what they need.

Last year, he wanted to take guitar in school (he's very musical and I encourage his passion). All he asked his dad for, was $200 for a second hand guitar. His father refused and said he couldn't afford it. As a result, my son dropped the course. My son had the opportunity to go to Boston with the school band (he also plays sax), but again, his father refused to help, stating he could give him $50 (the trip was $1100), but it would mean no birthday present that year. My son told his teacher he was unable to go.

Well, my ex's wife has a public blog. My son gave me the url, because he wanted me to see all about their money jars that they have, and how she complains about their debt. Curiosity got the best of me, and my son seems to have not read the entire blog. Not only were they only in debt two years ago, but they are currently owing NOTHING other than their current mortgage. On top of that, she goes into detail about how so far, they have put away $7700 for their emergency fund, $4200 for THEIR children's RESPs (did I mention my ex stole my son's savings account in the number of $2000 to pay off furniture?), $2500 this year towards their RRSPs and.....$5500 towards their "brand new" Mustang account!

So while those two are putting money away for a new sports car, my son is doing without! He's turning 16 this fall, and I want him to take driving lessons. I want my ex to pay for these. If he refuses, can his bank accounts be looked at? He hasn't paid a penny over and above child support for 15 years, and I resent that I have been carrying HIM for all these years. I get that it's my fault for not pursuing it in the past, but he's still his father now, and I can no longer help out much, because my current ex is also not paying section 7 expenses. In less than a year, I've put out $1500 in section 7 espenses (mostly therapy for the kids).

Since I have never forced my ex to pay for these extra expenses, does this mean a judge wouldn't force him to pay now? I feel awful for my son, when he sees his father's other kids getting whatever they want, while he's refused everything.

I do want to add that my son has been trying really hard to get a job, but being 15, he's not had much luck. He's not just some lazy kid waiting for stuff to be given to him, but I don't feel he should pay for some of the stuff he needs money for. His dad has already stated that he won't help him learn to drive, because he doesn't want to pay the whopping $50 to be added onto his insurance.
 
Most of what you wrote is irrelevant in court. It's nice to vent, but the details of his current debt load and his current spouses income is irrelevant to the subject you are asking about unless he tries to argue undue hardship. Which is virtually impossible as the father to pull off. He'd be a fool to try, but that doesn't mean he won't.

In any event, he should be contributing pro rata to income a portion of any section 7 expenses that would not be reasonably covered by CS. Has he been recalculating his CS obligation each year?

Driving lessons, music lessons (especially as the child is musically inclined) and the trip would all be section 7. They would not be reasonably covered by CS given the amounts. (The guitar lessons MAY BE arguable, but the other two are pretty clear cut)

The extra expense of putting the child under your car insurance would NOT be section 7, that would be reasonably included in CS. Ditto foolish things like buying the child a car. (It's been tried, read up on the forums)

The driving lessons however would qualify I do believe. All in all, it's a fine line, and up to the judges discretion, but you do have a valid argument towards getting it clarified and ratified by the court. (Did he refuse to assist in the school trip/etc in writing?)

Do you have an existing agreement? If so, does it mention section 7?
If it does NOT, file a motion with the court to have it clarified. Given your son is 16, it can be reasonably expected he will likely want to pursue post secondary education, which your ex is obligated to assist with.

Court will take you months to get through, you may as well include the order to clarify that as well. (ie. his post secondary contributions if the child pursues that route).
 
Thanks for your reply. Yes, a lot of that was venting, as I just discovered all this yesterday. I'm just mad, because the two of them are constantly moaning to my son, about their lack of money and try and guilt him out for it. They've also said on several occasions, that I take all their money. Umm...right.

I would never ask him to pay for insurance, as I'm happy to do so for my son, until he's able to contribute. I have never asked for anything unreasonable. As for getting his refusal in writing, I didn't. My son was actually the one who asked, as I thought he'd be less hostile if it were coming from my son (my mistake). From now on, I will ask him for these things in writing, and I'm sure his wife will respond.

He's been increasing my support regularly, but because I thought he was doing that voluntarily, I never have asked to exchange tax returns. Perhaps that was my mistake, because it seems he's been hiding his finances rather well. Even though I'm currently not working, I'm even offering to pay 20% towards my son's driving instruction, just to be fair.

I think I'll write to him, and tell him that from now on, he will be paying for these expenses. Let's face it...I already have an attorney on retainer. It won't be much of a hassle to have him write a reminder to my ex. My ex does not want to end up in court, and I'll remind him that the cost of a lawyer, will far surpass the cost of driving lessons.
 
NBDad is absolutely right~ having just finish trial wtih one of the issues being section 7, driving lessons, school trips are part of it; my two children went on the school band trip to Boston where he had to pay 50% of expenses. You have to remeber that once he is done high school and goes on to post secondary education, the expense 7 finishes and becomes post secondary education expenses and another part child support which I didn't know and claimed the post secondary education as an expense once they started college/university. It's no longer calculated on a 50/50 basis but according to the income of both parents, OSAP and how much the child made.
Is he in Grade 11 going into grade 12? they might go back for the expenses for certain amount of year since you DID NOT have a court order but an agreement, all up to the Judge as it was in our case.
Nothing is written in stones sometimes depending on a lot of factors.
 
Thankfully, he's going into grade 11, so we still have a while to get through. We had a very simple agreement, and it mostly focused on access. Things were done so much easier 15 years ago.

When you say "they might go back for the expenses", do you mean my ex, or the courts?

I really hate to go back to court and spend more money, but I'm really tired of my son going without. His own father never bothered spending money on him, and then my son's stepfather gave him nothing, depsite getting a tidy amount of child support (he claimed that the entire amount I received each month, went completely towards his living expenses).

I feel my son deserves certain things, including school trips with the band that he's in. Do I expect him to get to go to the trips to Paris and Italy that the school co-ordinates, no. But if he participates in the school band, he has a right to participate.

What do you mean that section 7's turn into university/college expenses and another part of child support? Does child support get reduced once they're in college, even if they're at home still? I'm a bit confused.
 
The way it USUALLY works is that post secondary expenses are calculated as such:

Total amount = Tuition + books(used where available)+ other fees (as per the program guidelines) + cheapest meal plan/cheapest residence option (if living away from home) + travel back home 2X per year at cheapest available public option.

Total cost - scholarships/bursaries/grants (child should be applying for ANY available) - RESPs - Student Loans = amount remaining

Amount Remaining /3 =

1/3 child's responsibility (P/T work/savings/etc)
2/3 = split pro rata by parents

CHILD SUPPORT typically continues during post secondary, until the completion of the course. If the child elects to NOT pursue post secondary, an application to terminate can be made when they either turn 18 or are no longer under the parent's care.
 
ProudMomof3: what I meant is the Court went back and gave me expenses from previous years as the other party had not paid any expenses. That was with our case.

the way NDDad calculated is also not quite the way it the way the mediator and the Judge did calculation;
to clarify what i meant is you still get child support but it will be a base amount according to the non custodial parent and then they add post secondary monthly amount on top of that. You do not sent for example in my case, expenses receipts to FRO once the child reaches post secondary education.
-in our case, since the one parent made more than the other, it was not divided like NDDad wrote and the RESP came out of my share having put this money asside.
 
Ok, I see what you're saying. I thought perhaps that once the bill for tuition came in, the bill would be split, each figuring out their own method of payment.

I wish there was something really standard that everyone had to follow. It would make things so much simpler.

Thanks for explaining that.
 
Would he go back with FRO if you were to fill out the papers?
I actually did not ask the Court to go through FRO, they did it automatically~
 
that is what I had done, when the tuition fees bill came in, I asked he pay for 1/3 which him refusing; so not knowing, I sent it to FRO for 50% of the expenses and kept the other portion of the bill I had not received making it equal. WRONG.
One advice lawyer laughed at me for being so honest. When it came to books, tools, the amount was larger than most program and when it became complicated as when you go under the OSAP estimator, it is not accurate.

Meal plan was a perfect example. If the student cannot come home on weekends being to far away, the meal plan has to be higher since they have to eat 7 days per week and not 5 days per week. Something I didn't think of at the time and not written in OSAP when apply. This was actually calculated by the Judge.
Moving expenses. I did the OSAP estimator for a student going to Oshawa and one going to ThunderBay, Ontario. The travel, moving and living expenses were the SAME. How can that be? one is over one hour and a half and other 12 hours, being a big difference in cost acknowledge by the Judge and why they took the total amount cost of the program and where the child resides.
 
he doesn't want to go back to FRO, but if he starts to give me problems, I have no problem going back to it. I don't want to get back to a point where I have to ask for money each month. I find it degrading.
 
Figuring all this out, I wish I'd paid more attention in my math class in high school! I'm hoping my son will choose to commute to school, rather than go away. Feeding him here would be cheaper, and at least I'd know he was eating well!
 
I said "usually". There is going to be extenuating circumstances and every situation is unique. :D My calculations are fair and reasonable, and if the other party decides to pull you into court and contest them, it'll give you a fair shot of asking for costs.

Try asking him to start paying his proportional share of section 7. Ask for his NoA (Notice of Assessment) from the last year's taxes. Both of those in writing.

Then provide him yours.
 
Just an update. I sent a letter to my ex, that was not personal or rude in any way. I just reminded him of his legal financial obligations to our son, that in the past he's refused to help him, that he's not paid anything in the past and that from now on, he's to start paying his share for Section 7 expenses. I also gave a breakdown of what upcoming expenses he should be expecting, such as driving lessons and school related fees.

Well, as I mentioned, his wife keeps a blog, which is how my son found out about all their money. Yesterday, my son was really upset. Turns out he's been keeping up to date on this blog. I don't think he does it to keep an eye on their budget, but mostly to see if he's being left out of "family" trips. Unfortunately, yesterday's entry was dedicated to me. She goes off on a tirade about what a horrible person I am, but she's far too lady like and Christian to say what she really thinks about me. How I should have just asked nicely for the money (I don't have to be nice, I just have to be business-like. As I said, the letter was not rude or personal, I just stated facts). How now they have to worry about all this unexpected money to leave their account and blah, blah, blah. Then of course other bloggers had to put their two cents in about what a shrew I am.

She accidentally forgot to mention how in the past, when my son asked for help with school related fees, they flat out said no. Interesting.

I figure I'll get the money, and I honestly don't care what she writes about me. I didn't even read it. But my son is very upset that she wrote such rude, inaccurate things about his mother. I keep telling him it doesn't bother me, but he says it bothers HIM. I feel badly for him.

I really resent these people, who marry someone with children and then expect those kids to disappear. They are aware there are children, and that there will be financial obligations to those children, yet they get bent all out of shape when all the money doesn't or can't go towards THEIR kids. If they want it to be all about their own kids, then stay away from single parents!
 
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