Prenup advice

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A joke was once told to me by a friend.
It went like this.
If air planes crashed 50% of the time would you ever fly?
If your answer is no, then why would you ever get married.
 
shellshocked22 said:
Just to comment on an earlier poster's comment....

"Live common law in Quebec".

While I concur this is a great idea at this time, it's important to note that...

a) Apparently the Que. government is thinking of "reviewing" the current situation (the party has to end sooner or later lol).
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Not sure what you are referring to here but this issue JUST went to the supreme court and it was endorsed by the supreme court.
 
Yes, I'm aware of the "Eric and Lola" case which CONFIRMED that in Quebec common law partners have no legal recourse to screw each other financially (child support excepted).

HOWEVER, while this is the case NOW, the reports also noted that the Que government is "thinking of revisiting the issue". In other words, the govt COULD/MAY change this in the FUTURE by passing NEW laws.

My point in this was simply showing that even if one were willing to accept the current family law dictatorship regime, things could CHANGE in the future to be even WORSE.

Moral: If you're a hard working person with a career and income generating ability, don't be an idiot and get married. Very few upsides and LOTS of downsides (as all PAYORS will likely agree). RECIPIENTS, on the other side, no doubt think its great to be on "spousal welfare".
 
Rioe said:
If you went to some sort of long-term marriage forum for tips on how to communicate well, keep the marriage fresh and so on, I'm sure you'd get the other 50% telling you things like "congratulations!" and "go for it!"
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I have to ask this.... are the other 50% truly content and happily married? Many for sure are... but how many are actually staying in a dead marriage out of habit?

Reason for asking is that we seem to say "1/2 of marriages end in divorce"... so those are obviously problematic.... but I'm willing to bet a good chunk of the rest are not a bed of roses either. What % of the rest are TRULY happy and blissful?

Are humans really meant to pair-bond for life ??
 
By SomeGuy "I have to ask this.... are the other 50% truly content and happily married? Many for sure are... but how many are actually staying in a dead marriage out of habit?

Reason for asking is that we seem to say "1/2 of marriages end in divorce"... so those are obviously problematic.... but I'm willing to bet a good chunk of the rest are not a bed of roses either. What % of the rest are TRULY happy and blissful?"

I HAVE TO ask that very same question. I've certainly had enough MARRIED men come on to me, ask me out, invites for all sorts. So... What does THAT say about the ones who are "married?" That incredible 50% or whatever the stat is?? There is definitely a big problemo out there. I have had this experience personally over the last decade. Sad.
 
On the subject of prenups: I know 2 separate ppl that had a prenup. Do you know what it did for them? Absolutely nothing. In one case, the wife had to re-mortgage her home and avert trial to pay her stbx out - for a home that he had not contributed to the purchase of. The monies to purchase the small home was money inherited by the woman, and the (then) husband signed away any rights to it (it was paid for outright, with no mortgage) - that prenup sure didn't help her. And had she gone to Trial, she would have lost and had costs to pay too. Welcome to Family Law.
 
A lot of it has to do with the expectations of both people for what married life would be like. To have a good relationship and KEEP a good relationship takes work every single day. Living your lives in service to each other and showing mutual generosity is not an easy thing to do, but it's the only way to keep things good. By nature people tend to be selfish, but too much of this behaviour eats away at the relationship until there's nothing left.

And yet within a relationship each party has to give each other the freedom and opportunity for personal growth... not to mention being aware that people DO change and sometimes it's not in the ways you'd like. Other times the problem is that people don't change.

How people handle change seems to be a big part of why relationships fail. I want a partner who can bend like a bough through the good times and the bad without breaking. My new partner and I have been through some awful things together and yet we are still here and doing great. For me, this bodes well for the future. However we do not have any plans to marry.
 
I don't disagree with anything that's been said.

And Hadenough, I believe that a lot of married people are miserable together. I think getting married at a younger age..when you don't even know who you are, let alone, who your partner is. Then adding in children, a mortgage, jobs, etc...is just daunting. Very few couples get through raising kids and then re-connect with each other to finish out the last half of their lives.

However, the issue for this OP and the other men posting the "don't get married" advice is that it won't fly for most truly worthwhile women. Most women are not going to tolerate a guy who is pessimistic about committed relationships and marriage. Someone who goes into a relationship saying that they'll never share a living arrangement is simply a deal-killer for most women.

So I guess you can try to find some woman to date who'll tolerate that...but you're going to be swimming in a pool with very few fish.

Of course, I am and will always be an optimist and a romantic despite my family law experience. While I think the institution of marriage needs an overhaul...I truly believe in the idea of pair-bonding and long-term committed relationships.
 
Mess said:
Don't get involved with someone who doesn't already have an education and a career. That won't necessarily always prevent spousal, but if they have a similar income when you start out, this will mitigate spousal, and at least make it clear if you start earning a lot more how much you may be on the hook for. You will know what is happening if your own career takes off.
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I am guessing by this you mean....a university degree and working in a professional field, not high school qualification and working in retail/secretary/restaurant?

It makes absolute sense because the ones without a "professional career" are always the ones to jump on the SS bandwagon claim.

So the key is that, they have to be earning close to you or more than you really
 
Pursuinghappiness said:
However, the issue for this OP and the other men posting the "don't get married" advice is that it won't fly for most truly worthwhile women. Most women are not going to tolerate a guy who is pessimistic about committed relationships and marriage. Someone who goes into a relationship saying that they'll never share a living arrangement is simply a deal-killer for most women.
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You are of course correct. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my biggest single concern at this stage is what sort of message to telegraph to my high-school age sons. The "don't ever, ever get married" is more of a vent and a warning than direct advice. It is absolutely critical that they understand how one-sided and antiquated the laws are....

Once this is all past, I will sit down with them and expalin my issues in detail.... and what they should watch out for from day 1. They want kids and a family, so the options are really kind of limited :)

The coming decades will be interesting as we are now at a point where university educated women now outnumber men.... gonna be intesting to watch the upcoming fireworks as gender roles undergo a transition :eek:

Pursuinghappiness said:
While I think the institution of marriage needs an overhaul...I truly believe in the idea of pair-bonding and long-term committed relationships.
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Despite my rants... I do agree with this :rolleyes:
 
Some Guy:

No doubt that things are going to change...especially when you have both genders screaming for it, rather than just one. Both genders need to work to change the system...the change won't truly happen or be valuable unless everyone is involved.

Regarding the OP's original post, however, I think its somewhat irrational to assume that telling someone not to get married is going to work. People enter marriage with a very different mindset than the one presented here and rightfully so. More importantly, the limitations it puts on potential partners is unreasonable.

I definitely think there are things that can and should be done to mitigate the damage.

Understanding how equalization happens is important. So both partners going into the marriage making sure both of their assets are well documented. And then understanding how you're going to split equity in the event of a divorce so that you're contributing equally into the financial pot. For instance, you might really consider co-mingling things like inheritance funds that you acquire during marriage. You also might not be the only one contributing to household upgrades, etc. If you understand the rules, you at least do it with your eyes open and aren't shocked in the event of a divorce.

Making a list and understanding the "deal-breakers" in your relationship are important. Emotional deal-breakers (ie. infidelity) and financial ones (ie. one partner spending too much or not contributing)...so that you leave the marriage expeditiously and don't linger while things fester.

Before having kids...making a list of how you're going to split parental duties is important. You can make a marital parenting plan. That way, in the event of a split, you can easily show how you both co-parented together...even in marriage..and show an evaluator the breakdown in duties for each partner. It would greatly improve chances of shared custody/access.

Obviously making agreements for SS and CS won't work. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. Not all litigants entering into divorce are unreasonable or cut-throat. I've heard of many, many people who are very fair and equitable in divorce situations. I think it truly helps when people have discussions about what might happen in a marital breakdown BEFORE marriage. It might not work out that way but the discussion is very important anyway.

In my opinion, I think its over-the-top to suggest you can't take some reasonable steps to improve your outcome in a divorce. And its also over-the-top to tell people not to marry...most are not going to take that advice.
 
hadenough said:
^ agree as well.. The problem is, it's just so much of a long shot.
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It is, but I believe in it as well, and I won't give up on the idea. I have way too many divorces in my family. I have four brothers, two of them have been divorced twice, one once, one hasn't been married but did have a common law relationship, separated but are now back together. One of my brothers with two divorces seems to have struck gold on the third try. That gives me hope.
 
I guess the single more important thing to protect yourself is that both parties to the marriage must remain "equal" partners. I'm pretty strongly against feminism in general (look where it got family law) but the idea that both people should be financially contributing throughout the relationship and share expenses either equally (or at least proportionally) is critical.

The more one-sided various aspects of the marriage get, the more unfair the outcome in divorce... for both parties. Stay at home parents are basically dooming everyone in the family including themselves. Parents who work but don't actively participate with the children are equally at a disadvantage.
 
I like the idea of the signing of an explicit prenup being an obligatory condition for marriage. Technically, we do sign a prenup when we get married in this country, it is just that the default prenup is probably not the one that most people would agree to sign.
 
Janus said:
I like the idea of the signing of an explicit prenup being an obligatory condition for marriage. Technically, we do sign a prenup when we get married in this country, it is just that the default prenup is probably not the one that most people would agree to sign.
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Unfortunately it seems like a lot of people here think a prenup is not worth much. I realize there is some selection bias on a divorce site and most people didn't get one, but still... one or two positive anecdotes of a prenup being upheld wouldn't hurt.:(
 
Prenups can be fine and might help you distribute your "stuff" in the event of a divorce but it would be a waste of ink and paper if one thought a prenup would prevent something like child support (right of the child) or spousal support (assuming entitlement is proven). Matrimonial property act varies depending upon which province you live in. Another example would be division of family business.
 
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