My boyfriend "Dan" met his wife in 1991 when she had a 1 year old daughter Dan and his wife had a child together in 1993 and married in 1999. They separated in 2003 and he has paid child support for both kids ever since. We do see his son but the daughter "Julie" only came around for the first year. Dan and I have been together since late 2003. Julie does not call or come around and has asked Dan to never contact her. The ex wife has taken Dan back to court for more money. Julie is now 20 and the ex wife would like more child support for both kids. She has come to court to say Julie has bi polar and the doctor note says she cannot work or go to school. In 2007 and 2008 Dan made a lot more money than he did when the child support was set out for him to pay. In 2009 he made a lot less. The judge has said Dan owes $32000 in back support from 07,08 and has tripled the current amount. The judge has said Dan is to pay for Julie until she gets disability which could be 4 years as this claim of bi polar just started this past year. We have filed bankrupt last year and we barely get by.We cannot afford to pay this substancial amount and Julie has not come to see us in 2 years. Her biological father does spend time with her but he is also on welfare and the courts have said therefore Dan has to pay. Help us please
non biological child support
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NBDad
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Unforunately you need a lawyer to resolve this mess. Most of what you'll need to do is tricky at best, and retardedly difficult for a non-custodial parent to pull off...especially the father. You need to try to argue some of my points below, AND haul the bio-dad into the equation as well. Unless he is physically UNABLE to work, he should be contributing to his daughter's care.
What's happened to your BF is usually only applicable when the bio-parent is NOT in the picture at all, and the "step-parent" acts "in loco parentis"...literally in place of a parent.
In that scenario, the stepparent is obligated to pay support. In this case it appears the step child cut all contact with him once her mother and your BF separated. Therefore you should be able to argue that he was NOT a father figure in her eyes. (Particularly in the case that her bio-dad IS in the picture).
Nothing you can do about the biological child, by the sounds of things you already know that part. (as most of your post focuses on the step daughter)
The issue is that when his income changed, his support amounts should have changed as well. Since he did not voluntarily up the payments accordingly, then now he's getting dinged for retro CS. (What he SHOULD have done is to vary the amount of CS based on the table amounts every year, so while you are at it, you want to make sure that gets done too.)
Basically write in that the CS payments are automatically recalculated based on line 150 of the income tax assessment, with a July - June payment schedule.
Get something in place respective to his son as well. Ie. support ends when he's completed highschool, turns 19, or no longer lives with his mother, whatever occurs first. You'll also want an additional clause that in the event he pursues post secondary education after high school, the CS is to be paid until he's 21. Those items are pretty standard these days.
Regarding the step daughter, the bio-dad should be paying support. He should have been paying all along. Him being on welfare is going to complicate things, but going purely off the information you provided, you should have a couple of options.
Further, you can try for a claim of undue hardship based on triple the amount of CS being applied. It *might* work in this instance since the circumstances are a bit muddy, AND the fact you already had to declare bankruptcy because of the amounts.
There are worksheets available to try to guesstimate this yourself. (Issue being that if you and the boyfriend are living together, YOUR income comes into play for the calculation as well)
Good luck, your BF is stuck in a bit of a tricky situation. With a good lawyer, he *might* be able to improve things.
What's happened to your BF is usually only applicable when the bio-parent is NOT in the picture at all, and the "step-parent" acts "in loco parentis"...literally in place of a parent.
In that scenario, the stepparent is obligated to pay support. In this case it appears the step child cut all contact with him once her mother and your BF separated. Therefore you should be able to argue that he was NOT a father figure in her eyes. (Particularly in the case that her bio-dad IS in the picture).
Nothing you can do about the biological child, by the sounds of things you already know that part. (as most of your post focuses on the step daughter)
The issue is that when his income changed, his support amounts should have changed as well. Since he did not voluntarily up the payments accordingly, then now he's getting dinged for retro CS. (What he SHOULD have done is to vary the amount of CS based on the table amounts every year, so while you are at it, you want to make sure that gets done too.)
Basically write in that the CS payments are automatically recalculated based on line 150 of the income tax assessment, with a July - June payment schedule.
Get something in place respective to his son as well. Ie. support ends when he's completed highschool, turns 19, or no longer lives with his mother, whatever occurs first. You'll also want an additional clause that in the event he pursues post secondary education after high school, the CS is to be paid until he's 21. Those items are pretty standard these days.
Regarding the step daughter, the bio-dad should be paying support. He should have been paying all along. Him being on welfare is going to complicate things, but going purely off the information you provided, you should have a couple of options.
Further, you can try for a claim of undue hardship based on triple the amount of CS being applied. It *might* work in this instance since the circumstances are a bit muddy, AND the fact you already had to declare bankruptcy because of the amounts.
There are worksheets available to try to guesstimate this yourself. (Issue being that if you and the boyfriend are living together, YOUR income comes into play for the calculation as well)
Good luck, your BF is stuck in a bit of a tricky situation. With a good lawyer, he *might* be able to improve things.
Thank you for trying to help us sort this out. I unfortunately feel the lawyer we have paid any available monies to is not helping at all. He just keeps saying this is law. Grrr. We have also been told by our lawyer that we would have to bring the bio dad in at our own expense and it would not affect what we pay it only gives her more money. We also asked the paperwork to say that CS would end when the son turns 19 but again the lawyer said the courts cannot predict the future and they will only add that the mother is to voluntarily withdrawl from the FRO when he is 19 or has completed school. As far as the lawyer goes we are not happy with him or what has happened. It was his suggestion to pull oour last three years income. This was never asked for by the courts. Where can we find this worksheet you mention. I do not have any problems including my income as I have my own kids I pay for. The frustrating part is that Julie has not been is school since she was 14 and now we have to continue to pay for her. I am so upset I cannot even think anymore. Thank you for listening and providing info. This is the furthest I have gotten.
NBDad
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The Federal Child Support Guidelines: Step-by-Step outlines the worksheets and process for undue hardship.
Should REDUCE your amount, especially if you argue that he's not seen as a parent in the step child's eyes. BIO dad should be paying the bulk of support, your BF should be paying little, if anything.
Put the exact date that he turns 19 into the order, so it's not ambigous. Indicate a requirement that when he graduates high school, turns 19 on XX-XX-XXXX, or is no longer living under his mother's care, that support is terminated. Take the order, file it with the FRO.
Sounds like you need a new lawyer.
Should REDUCE your amount, especially if you argue that he's not seen as a parent in the step child's eyes. BIO dad should be paying the bulk of support, your BF should be paying little, if anything.
Put the exact date that he turns 19 into the order, so it's not ambigous. Indicate a requirement that when he graduates high school, turns 19 on XX-XX-XXXX, or is no longer living under his mother's care, that support is terminated. Take the order, file it with the FRO.
Sounds like you need a new lawyer.
karma, all lawyers want your money, it is a profession. Not all lawyers will understand or admit their own limitations, and very few will send you on to a lawyer with a particular specialty. This is part of the nature of getting through law school, they pretty much screen for strong personalities, over-confidence and large egos.
So it ends up, you are looking for a diamond in a coal mine, and asking us how to find one
.
Call the Law Society of Upper Canada referal service. You can get a half hour consultation, I believe it costs $5 charged to your phone bill. Have a list of questions ready. Talk to several lawyers and be strict about asking them about their specialty, their experience, if they have handled similar cases before and especially if they have handled appeals before.
Take down the lawyer's names that you speak to or are considering and search for them on Canlii, and confirm that they have handled cases like yours before.
There is nothing wrong with having a junior lawyer to do your basic paperwork and calculations and draw up a separation agreement. You don't need an experienced trial lawyer to handle amicable negotiations. But your case is specific and you can't screw around.
There ARE arguments you can make about your case, especially since the child has decided to cut all contact with the step-father and therefore the step-father is not in any way a parent, just a financial source. But these are difficult arguments to present, you need a lawyer that understands this type of case.
You also have a responsibility with any lawyer to keep an eye on your case, and make sure it is being handled to your satisfaction. If you feel a lawyer is "just after your money" then you have to accept that you should have been more hands on from the start. Lawyers work for you and with you, they aren't something you switch on and then ignore them and figure everything is being done for you. Ask questions, get answers, set out your expectations, set out a timeline, and establish a point where you expect results, and be clear to the lawyer what that point is and have their agreement.
So it ends up, you are looking for a diamond in a coal mine, and asking us how to find one
. Call the Law Society of Upper Canada referal service. You can get a half hour consultation, I believe it costs $5 charged to your phone bill. Have a list of questions ready. Talk to several lawyers and be strict about asking them about their specialty, their experience, if they have handled similar cases before and especially if they have handled appeals before.
Take down the lawyer's names that you speak to or are considering and search for them on Canlii, and confirm that they have handled cases like yours before.
There is nothing wrong with having a junior lawyer to do your basic paperwork and calculations and draw up a separation agreement. You don't need an experienced trial lawyer to handle amicable negotiations. But your case is specific and you can't screw around.
There ARE arguments you can make about your case, especially since the child has decided to cut all contact with the step-father and therefore the step-father is not in any way a parent, just a financial source. But these are difficult arguments to present, you need a lawyer that understands this type of case.
You also have a responsibility with any lawyer to keep an eye on your case, and make sure it is being handled to your satisfaction. If you feel a lawyer is "just after your money" then you have to accept that you should have been more hands on from the start. Lawyers work for you and with you, they aren't something you switch on and then ignore them and figure everything is being done for you. Ask questions, get answers, set out your expectations, set out a timeline, and establish a point where you expect results, and be clear to the lawyer what that point is and have their agreement.
midnightvampyr
New member
The Castration of the North American male - family law
The Castration of the North American male - family law
Please write your provincial/federal politicians on this matter.
There was a recent case where a man found out during a divorce proceeding that the two kids were not biologically his - the judge ruled that despite the fact the man was not the biological father, he was ordered to continue paying support since he was the "only" father figure the children had known....more pressure should be put on legislators to emphasize that no access should mean no pay...its simple...children are a huge financial responsibility and are not "precious" by any stretch of the imagination...
Always avoid lawyers as much as possible....they will bankrupt you without conscience and insist that they are doing you a favour at the same time....most forms you can get from the family law court....motions to vary should be filed regularly however, these too can end up in a courtroom dispute, and, with a lawyer, can prove even more costly...judges are lunatics practicing by rules of law that are draconian and not based upon common sense....job terminations end court ordered payments .... your situation is one where the no access no pay rule should be in place....as should those situations where the couple were not involved in a "committed" relationship, married or common law, and only the female wanted the child for pecuniary reasons - which is always the case....
Once again, I encourage you to contact your local parliamentarian(s) and the law congress of Ontario....Family law is a joke when it comes to child support ....it is essentially revenge by the sexually repressed and sexually inhibited towards those who have participated in sexual intercourse...it represents, in many ways, the castration of the North American male, financially, emotionally and psychologically....
The Castration of the North American male - family law
Please write your provincial/federal politicians on this matter.
There was a recent case where a man found out during a divorce proceeding that the two kids were not biologically his - the judge ruled that despite the fact the man was not the biological father, he was ordered to continue paying support since he was the "only" father figure the children had known....more pressure should be put on legislators to emphasize that no access should mean no pay...its simple...children are a huge financial responsibility and are not "precious" by any stretch of the imagination...
Always avoid lawyers as much as possible....they will bankrupt you without conscience and insist that they are doing you a favour at the same time....most forms you can get from the family law court....motions to vary should be filed regularly however, these too can end up in a courtroom dispute, and, with a lawyer, can prove even more costly...judges are lunatics practicing by rules of law that are draconian and not based upon common sense....job terminations end court ordered payments .... your situation is one where the no access no pay rule should be in place....as should those situations where the couple were not involved in a "committed" relationship, married or common law, and only the female wanted the child for pecuniary reasons - which is always the case....
Once again, I encourage you to contact your local parliamentarian(s) and the law congress of Ontario....Family law is a joke when it comes to child support ....it is essentially revenge by the sexually repressed and sexually inhibited towards those who have participated in sexual intercourse...it represents, in many ways, the castration of the North American male, financially, emotionally and psychologically....
NBDad
New member
Yeah, there is a specific law term for it. "In loco parentis". In your example the man had a right to access to those children should he wish it. I'm guessing he probably chose NOT to pursue it, but he retains that right.
Writing to your local MP/etc may be a fine idea to put pressure on them to change things, however the wheels of government move so slowly, that this is NOT going to help the OP. They need to get a competant, experienced lawyer, with a specific skill set in order to help unravel some of the mess that has occured.
Just....stop...giving...advice
Access/support are two TOTALLY separate issues. Far too often one parent or another attempts to combine them out of a false sense of entitlement or greed.
In your example it would actually HURT the kids, because you'd have to have it both ways. No access means no pay, no pay means no access. Children are used too often as pawns in the parent's financial head games as it is, are you actually advocating ALLOWING an INCREASE in that?
And yes, children are a huge financial responsibility. However, you had the choice to become a parent. Either close your legs or wrap it up if you aren't ready to deal with the consequences of your actions.
True to a point. In this specific situation, unilaterally false. While you can attempt to do this yourself, you are dealing with a number of hurdles. It's a messy, tricky situation and unfortunately is going to require the assistance of a professional. Family law is not for the faint of heart, and the issues in this specific situation are enough to give even me pause, and I'm far from an unintelligent/uninformed person.
Motions to vary should be filed when absolutely required, as in when other avenues of negotiations have failed. You should ALWAYS make the attempt to negotiate in good faith with the other party FIRST. If that's unsuccessful, then you can freely pursue other avenues, including filing a motion to vary. This has the added effect of making you the reasonable party, and gives you a valid reason to request costs (and perhaps recoup some of your losses that filing a motion is going to cost)
midnightvampyr
New member
There is NO SUCH THING as the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus or competent lawyers...lol....come on now....get a grip....if the gentleman is on welfare, the tables indicate the payment amount...if it is less than a specific amount, he should be paying nothing........this is the law, no matter how dubious it may be in common sense...the laws were legislated by male hating women's liberationists and apologetic and sexually incompetent males....and they can be changed....the government and its rules of law has no place in granting extortion rights to individuals by using the life of a child as its means...NBDad, why do you fight so hard to be with your children????.....when you die, or sooner, they will probably be there to pick your assets clean to the bone...
billiechic
New member
blah, blah, blah.
How are your posts helping the OP?
How are your posts helping the OP?
midnightvampyr
New member
Child support is based on income....what is your husband's income?? Go to the table and check out the table amount...
Ministry of the Attorney General - Child Support
All provinces have similar websites....
Check out line 150 of your most recent tax return...that is the basic child support amount used to determine the payment and proportionate share expenses...
Present legislation DICTATES that you MUST pay support for progeny, biological/otherwise or both (believe it or not)....with or without access...the two are linked as without access the process IS EXTORTION and I would be suspicious of anyone who even remotely suggests that it is not while touting the joys of parenthood....go to your local family law court...most of the forms to fill out are there....they are usually self explanatory or something you can learn about....there are people who may help you with the forms there....do not let the lawyers argue for you - his lawyer versus her lawyer...bad idea for you, very profitable for them...and don't think for a minute that the lawyer is there to do anything else but to maximize his or her profit from this situation....lawyers not only profit from the misery of others but actually thrive without conscience....deal with the applicant's lawyer directly...if you believe you need to consult a lawyer over an issue, check online and/or book a 30 minute session with one or three to answer your questions....most family lawyers, by the way, drive expensive cars, dine in fine restaurants and live in very nice homes....also, be careful about the advice you get here, as this site has many people who have something to gain by keeping the current legislation in place....if a lawyer thinks the current system is just, find another one....
Ministry of the Attorney General - Child Support
All provinces have similar websites....
Check out line 150 of your most recent tax return...that is the basic child support amount used to determine the payment and proportionate share expenses...
Present legislation DICTATES that you MUST pay support for progeny, biological/otherwise or both (believe it or not)....with or without access...the two are linked as without access the process IS EXTORTION and I would be suspicious of anyone who even remotely suggests that it is not while touting the joys of parenthood....go to your local family law court...most of the forms to fill out are there....they are usually self explanatory or something you can learn about....there are people who may help you with the forms there....do not let the lawyers argue for you - his lawyer versus her lawyer...bad idea for you, very profitable for them...and don't think for a minute that the lawyer is there to do anything else but to maximize his or her profit from this situation....lawyers not only profit from the misery of others but actually thrive without conscience....deal with the applicant's lawyer directly...if you believe you need to consult a lawyer over an issue, check online and/or book a 30 minute session with one or three to answer your questions....most family lawyers, by the way, drive expensive cars, dine in fine restaurants and live in very nice homes....also, be careful about the advice you get here, as this site has many people who have something to gain by keeping the current legislation in place....if a lawyer thinks the current system is just, find another one....
representingself
New member
NBDad
New member
I had a really good laugh about "assets". What assets? 
I have 4 kids, my girlfriend has 4 kids. (Yes 8 total). Full/Sole custody of all 8.
Are these "asset" things like those other mythical beasts I hear about? Sleep and "Free time"??
OP, don't listen to midnight, he's a bitter, deluded individual who hears only what he wants to hear.
I have 4 kids, my girlfriend has 4 kids. (Yes 8 total). Full/Sole custody of all 8.Are these "asset" things like those other mythical beasts I hear about? Sleep and "Free time"??
OP, don't listen to midnight, he's a bitter, deluded individual who hears only what he wants to hear.
sufferer
New member
For NB dad
For NB dad
(I had a really good laugh about "assets". What assets? I have 4 kids, my girlfriend has 4 kids. (Yes 8 total). Full/Sole custody of all 8)
wow
As per me you have 8 precious assets and as per a gentleman here you have 8 financial responsibilities.Nothing but a difference of view.But he really reminds me of my ex who just knows his rights and absolutely nothing about his duties as normal human forget about being a dad/son/husband
I literally think cl4 is back with a different name
For NB dad
(I had a really good laugh about "assets". What assets? I have 4 kids, my girlfriend has 4 kids. (Yes 8 total). Full/Sole custody of all 8)
wow
As per me you have 8 precious assets and as per a gentleman here you have 8 financial responsibilities.Nothing but a difference of view.But he really reminds me of my ex who just knows his rights and absolutely nothing about his duties as normal human forget about being a dad/son/husband
I literally think cl4 is back with a different name
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