New child
- Thread starter Wyntermcd
- Start date
A couple of other questions
This new child means that the exwife will not be returning to the work force (based on age/experience//knowing personal feelings on young children in day care etc)
Does this have any impact ? Her only employment will be as co owner of the business her and her partner have which is the same as she did in previous marriage (ie be a sahm, co owner and book keeper)
Also does the new common law partners income have any impact? IE do I have to get specifics about what he makes?
What if he makes very little compared to the payors income?
Where I'm going with this is that the purpose of spousal support was to provide for ex wife until she go herself a job an get herself back on her feet. Now with her new partner they have made the decision that she will basically remain a sahm forever. Does that not indicate that he has made the decision to provide for her financially?
Are there any other factors that I should be aware of ?
This new child means that the exwife will not be returning to the work force (based on age/experience//knowing personal feelings on young children in day care etc)
Does this have any impact ? Her only employment will be as co owner of the business her and her partner have which is the same as she did in previous marriage (ie be a sahm, co owner and book keeper)
Also does the new common law partners income have any impact? IE do I have to get specifics about what he makes?
What if he makes very little compared to the payors income?
Where I'm going with this is that the purpose of spousal support was to provide for ex wife until she go herself a job an get herself back on her feet. Now with her new partner they have made the decision that she will basically remain a sahm forever. Does that not indicate that he has made the decision to provide for her financially?
Are there any other factors that I should be aware of ?
arabian
New member
Is this situation regarding your ex or your partner's ex? I'm a bit confused.
SS shouldn't be viewed as a form of Unemployment Insurance. You'd be best to read up on SS before you put your own personal interpretation into things.
Many who receive SS can repartner and/or reproduce if they so choose.
Is there a re-cohabitation clause in the SS agreement? Is there specific reference that ex-wife shall look for and obtain employment? Is there a time-limit for the employment search? Is there provision for imputed income in the event she fails to find employment within a specified period of time?
Read up on compensatory and non-compensatory SS.
Read up on "material change of circumstance" relating to SS.
Read up on "undue hardship" relating to SS.
Much comes down to interpretation of the Divorce Act, the divorce/SS agreement in question along with years and years of legal precedent.
It stands to reason, and has been successfully argued in court, that SS is not to be considered as a "pension for life." I believe you previously mentioned that your partner's SS agreement with ex-wife did indeed have a term specified and that it was not indefinite.
Some people have had SS overturned by claiming "Change of Circumstance." You can research on CanLII Ontario for similar cases.
Some people have had SS overturned by claiming "Undue Hardship." You can also research this on CanLII Ontario.
SS shouldn't be viewed as a form of Unemployment Insurance. You'd be best to read up on SS before you put your own personal interpretation into things.
Many who receive SS can repartner and/or reproduce if they so choose.
Is there a re-cohabitation clause in the SS agreement? Is there specific reference that ex-wife shall look for and obtain employment? Is there a time-limit for the employment search? Is there provision for imputed income in the event she fails to find employment within a specified period of time?
Read up on compensatory and non-compensatory SS.
Read up on "material change of circumstance" relating to SS.
Read up on "undue hardship" relating to SS.
Much comes down to interpretation of the Divorce Act, the divorce/SS agreement in question along with years and years of legal precedent.
It stands to reason, and has been successfully argued in court, that SS is not to be considered as a "pension for life." I believe you previously mentioned that your partner's SS agreement with ex-wife did indeed have a term specified and that it was not indefinite.
Some people have had SS overturned by claiming "Change of Circumstance." You can research on CanLII Ontario for similar cases.
Some people have had SS overturned by claiming "Undue Hardship." You can also research this on CanLII Ontario.
Thanks! I've slowly been searching through canlii but its hard to find circumstances that are similar to this situation.
It's my partner and his ex wife I'm referring to (it's hard to keep it straight when I write because I'm used to thinking of he and I as a unit lol)
There is no cohabitation clause, no clause requiring her to look for work, and no provision for imputed income.
I find it increasingly difficult as well because both of them are self employeed so financial numbers are harder to figure out.
I've read a bit about compensatory and non compensatory SS but in this situation I don't know which category the SS falls under. When you co own a business and work from home as the book keeper, I don't know if that's considered sacrificing careers opportunities or not.
To be honest the SA has a lot of sections in it that need to be updated, there have been a number of household changes since it was signed on both parts and parts of it are no longer physically possible to abide by.
It's my partner and his ex wife I'm referring to (it's hard to keep it straight when I write because I'm used to thinking of he and I as a unit lol)
There is no cohabitation clause, no clause requiring her to look for work, and no provision for imputed income.
I find it increasingly difficult as well because both of them are self employeed so financial numbers are harder to figure out.
I've read a bit about compensatory and non compensatory SS but in this situation I don't know which category the SS falls under. When you co own a business and work from home as the book keeper, I don't know if that's considered sacrificing careers opportunities or not.
To be honest the SA has a lot of sections in it that need to be updated, there have been a number of household changes since it was signed on both parts and parts of it are no longer physically possible to abide by.
arabian
New member
You probably won't find much similar to your situation on CanLII as I believe if someone tried to have SS overturned because of re-partnering or new child it would be tossed out of court in under 10 minutes on motion.
I posted the CanLII case so you could better understand how SS works.
A bookkeeper who quits her job to marry, have kids and work with her husband has given up her career outside of the marriage. A 15 yr marriage is not a short-term marriage. From what you have described the marriage was a "traditional" one in that the wife stayed home to look after family and husband worked. Details of the wife's role in the marriage would have been considered at the time of determining SS. Details would have possibly considered if she was paid a salary while working with husband, did she contribute regularly to CPP, did she upgrade education and get certification in her area (accounting), etc. You have to realize that your husband's version and the wife's version will probably not be the same.
The ex's decision to stay home and do bookkeeping for new partner is just that. Her decision. It is not unusual for small mom-and-pop businesses to have one person stay home and do the books, look after the kids while the other works outside of the home. Eliminates the need for day care and keeps money in the family coffers. I don't believe there is any law compelling her to do anything different than she has done in the past - bookkeeping for a small business. I don't believe you could make a case that she is underemployed if she is doing the same job she has always done.
Speculating about the ex wife's life could prove to be quite futile. You have not said whether your husband and his ex exchange financial information every year and if so is it just tax returns, rather than detailed business financial statements.
Sounds like you are merely upset that your husband has to pay SS. News flash - he was likely paying that when you met him. Get over it.
Yes SS can indeed be increased and extended at the end of the term. I would therefore advise caution when propelling your husband to go back to court. If he loses then he could be ordered to pay costs.
I posted the CanLII case so you could better understand how SS works.
A bookkeeper who quits her job to marry, have kids and work with her husband has given up her career outside of the marriage. A 15 yr marriage is not a short-term marriage. From what you have described the marriage was a "traditional" one in that the wife stayed home to look after family and husband worked. Details of the wife's role in the marriage would have been considered at the time of determining SS. Details would have possibly considered if she was paid a salary while working with husband, did she contribute regularly to CPP, did she upgrade education and get certification in her area (accounting), etc. You have to realize that your husband's version and the wife's version will probably not be the same.
The ex's decision to stay home and do bookkeeping for new partner is just that. Her decision. It is not unusual for small mom-and-pop businesses to have one person stay home and do the books, look after the kids while the other works outside of the home. Eliminates the need for day care and keeps money in the family coffers. I don't believe there is any law compelling her to do anything different than she has done in the past - bookkeeping for a small business. I don't believe you could make a case that she is underemployed if she is doing the same job she has always done.
Speculating about the ex wife's life could prove to be quite futile. You have not said whether your husband and his ex exchange financial information every year and if so is it just tax returns, rather than detailed business financial statements.
Sounds like you are merely upset that your husband has to pay SS. News flash - he was likely paying that when you met him. Get over it.
Yes SS can indeed be increased and extended at the end of the term. I would therefore advise caution when propelling your husband to go back to court. If he loses then he could be ordered to pay costs.
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arabian
New member
I would remind you of your post of June 25th of this year:
"The marriage was for 15 years so this was what was worked out as .5 per year of marriage but at a higher amount then the tables required to allow ex time to get herself a job and self sufficient (though this was not specificied in agreement)"
Not having a clause in the SA regarding employment/self-sufficiency or imputed income would be important to consider before trying to have SS overturned.
"The marriage was for 15 years so this was what was worked out as .5 per year of marriage but at a higher amount then the tables required to allow ex time to get herself a job and self sufficient (though this was not specificied in agreement)"
Not having a clause in the SA regarding employment/self-sufficiency or imputed income would be important to consider before trying to have SS overturned.
They are supposed to give each other their NOA's each year but neither of them does. There isn't a clause in their agreement stating that support amounts will change depending on their yearly incomes. (That part surprised me, after learning about what is customary for both child and spousal).
So if she decides to be a SAHM forever because of her new family he could have to pay her for longer then even the agreement states? Regardless of her having a new spouse to support her? I get that a remarriage could have been forseen, but does anyone expect someone in their mid/late 40's to have kids? (Not being a parent myself, maybe it's just something I'm not experienced with).
Not upset so much that he pays, he signed the agreement after we had gotten together so I knew about it, (it took them a few years after they separated to get one written up), mostly just wishing that at the time I had known what I know now. There are a bunch of flaws to the agreement that seem abnormal from what I've read here. Honest truth if he has to keep paying then well he has to keep paying, that's life and we'll manage. And obviously there's no question that he has to provide for child support for quite some time still lol.
It's better to know these possibilities exist then be surprised by them in the future.
His financial picture is quite grim and even if he lost and she was awarded court costs, there's really not much more for them to take, I would give details as to why but I'd rather not post that publicly lol. And that's ok though because I make enough money that even if he had no income, we'd still be able to afford our rent and food. We already don't have cable or Internet so it's not like we require more then the basic necessities.
I thought perhaps this would be a reasonable and acceptable way to relieve some of our financial burden, though obviously I'm aware I could be mistaken. One thing I've learned is that things are never cut and dry lol, and divorce and separation are very complex issues.
On a semi related note, in another year he and I will be considered common law. Is there anything I need to do to protect myself from his financial obligations to his ex wife? I do not want to be responsible for paying her support lol I neer married the woman!
So if she decides to be a SAHM forever because of her new family he could have to pay her for longer then even the agreement states? Regardless of her having a new spouse to support her? I get that a remarriage could have been forseen, but does anyone expect someone in their mid/late 40's to have kids? (Not being a parent myself, maybe it's just something I'm not experienced with).
Not upset so much that he pays, he signed the agreement after we had gotten together so I knew about it, (it took them a few years after they separated to get one written up), mostly just wishing that at the time I had known what I know now. There are a bunch of flaws to the agreement that seem abnormal from what I've read here. Honest truth if he has to keep paying then well he has to keep paying, that's life and we'll manage. And obviously there's no question that he has to provide for child support for quite some time still lol.
It's better to know these possibilities exist then be surprised by them in the future.
His financial picture is quite grim and even if he lost and she was awarded court costs, there's really not much more for them to take, I would give details as to why but I'd rather not post that publicly lol. And that's ok though because I make enough money that even if he had no income, we'd still be able to afford our rent and food. We already don't have cable or Internet so it's not like we require more then the basic necessities.
I thought perhaps this would be a reasonable and acceptable way to relieve some of our financial burden, though obviously I'm aware I could be mistaken. One thing I've learned is that things are never cut and dry lol, and divorce and separation are very complex issues.
On a semi related note, in another year he and I will be considered common law. Is there anything I need to do to protect myself from his financial obligations to his ex wife? I do not want to be responsible for paying her support lol I neer married the woman!
arabian
New member
Was the SA agreement drawn up with independent legal advice (ILA)?
In the case of people being self-employed, the matter becomes more complicated. Self-employed can manipulate their income tax return so that the tax payable is much lower than had they been an employee. That is why I think it is important to request annual financial statements which include income and expenses. How someone files their tax return (honestly or dishonestly) is beyond your control.
If you decide to request a review of SS then you have to have facts. The exchange of financial information is very important. This would back up a request to alter the SA for imputing of income. Of course your husband would have to provide the same information to the ex wife.
Start by having your husband provide the past 5 yrs NOA's to her and request she provide the same. This exchange of information should be done before you go to court. It could be argued that the inclusion of the statement of annual exchanging of financial information implies that either party can request a review of SS if there has been a material change of circumstance.
I have no personal experience on common law and therefore defer your common law question to someone else on this forum. My "guess" would be that unless you have been hiding income for your husband, the ex would not have a claim against you.
I wish my ex's g/f would get pregnant (she's in her 50's) LOL.
In the case of people being self-employed, the matter becomes more complicated. Self-employed can manipulate their income tax return so that the tax payable is much lower than had they been an employee. That is why I think it is important to request annual financial statements which include income and expenses. How someone files their tax return (honestly or dishonestly) is beyond your control.
If you decide to request a review of SS then you have to have facts. The exchange of financial information is very important. This would back up a request to alter the SA for imputing of income. Of course your husband would have to provide the same information to the ex wife.
Start by having your husband provide the past 5 yrs NOA's to her and request she provide the same. This exchange of information should be done before you go to court. It could be argued that the inclusion of the statement of annual exchanging of financial information implies that either party can request a review of SS if there has been a material change of circumstance.
I have no personal experience on common law and therefore defer your common law question to someone else on this forum. My "guess" would be that unless you have been hiding income for your husband, the ex would not have a claim against you.
I wish my ex's g/f would get pregnant (she's in her 50's) LOL.
No he didn't have legal advice but she did. Her lawyer drafted the agreement.
The financial information is another issue. He's years behind in paying his taxes and hst. It's not that his company makes a tonne of money, but the moment he files, he's going to have to shut down his company, he owes too much to the government lol. I know, stupid mistake to make, but it's te reality of the situation.
We haven't been hiding income, I dot even draw a pay cheque from the company (I'm reluctant to have my name attached to it due to the financial situation of the company)
I wonder if a better approach to the situation wouldn't be to try and have a clause put into the agreement that would require a change to support amounts based on yearly incomes of the both of them.
The financial information is another issue. He's years behind in paying his taxes and hst. It's not that his company makes a tonne of money, but the moment he files, he's going to have to shut down his company, he owes too much to the government lol. I know, stupid mistake to make, but it's te reality of the situation.
We haven't been hiding income, I dot even draw a pay cheque from the company (I'm reluctant to have my name attached to it due to the financial situation of the company)
I wonder if a better approach to the situation wouldn't be to try and have a clause put into the agreement that would require a change to support amounts based on yearly incomes of the both of them.
arabian
New member
I can assure you that your husband won't be able to do very much until he can provide up-to-date financial information, which would include filing of all taxes as well as GST/HST.
If he hasn't filed his taxes in years then how does he know how much he owes? SS is fully tax deductible. He can make arrangements with CRA to pay over time.
I would think that you would be best to focus your efforts on getting that done before you jump into anything else. A judge would not alter the agreement, in my opinion. You are wasting your time.
Why would you be able to draw a cheque from the company? What is your role in the business?
If he hasn't filed his taxes in years then how does he know how much he owes? SS is fully tax deductible. He can make arrangements with CRA to pay over time.
I would think that you would be best to focus your efforts on getting that done before you jump into anything else. A judge would not alter the agreement, in my opinion. You are wasting your time.
Why would you be able to draw a cheque from the company? What is your role in the business?
I had an accountant take a look at all the finances last year to see just where the business was at. So I have a rough idea of what the amounts owing are going to be. After finding out what the situation was Iwas reluctant to start that ball rolling at the time (last year was a really bad year financially and we were struggling). This year has been better and would be a better time to focus on it.
I do half the work for the business lol but I just don't bother to take a pay cheque, it wouldn't change much and I didn't want to "officially" be a partner. If need be I could go work for someone else doing the same thing and I would make a decent wage (enough to support us both). I just would rather work with my partner.
I do half the work for the business lol but I just don't bother to take a pay cheque, it wouldn't change much and I didn't want to "officially" be a partner. If need be I could go work for someone else doing the same thing and I would make a decent wage (enough to support us both). I just would rather work with my partner.
arabian
New member
So you have stepped into the former wife's role as bookkeeper but you don't get paid for it. You are engaged/married to someone who can't face reality of financial responsibility and you are on this forum to get advice for him? That's taking "stand by your man" to a different level.
I suggest you review all of your posts and the advice that has been given to you.
You are looking for the ex wife to pay for you and your husband's financial mismanagement. That is what I surmise of this situation.
Some people are very good at what they do but they are simply not business material. You probably already know that. I suggest you consider getting some counselling and start making some wise decisions for yourself and your future.
Good Luck!
I suggest you review all of your posts and the advice that has been given to you.
You are looking for the ex wife to pay for you and your husband's financial mismanagement. That is what I surmise of this situation.
Some people are very good at what they do but they are simply not business material. You probably already know that. I suggest you consider getting some counselling and start making some wise decisions for yourself and your future.
Good Luck!
No, I'm not te book keeper. I know enough to know that I wouldn't be very good at that part lol except in the basic, keep all receipts etc. I literally do half the actual work for the company.
Maybe your right and I'm taking the whole concept of stand by your partner a bit far, but if I am, I am doing so by choice and knowing the consequences. I read all the posts on here and yes do ask for advice because I prefer to know what the options are and I hate being surprised by things lol. I'd rather know about what possibilities exist and what options are.
I didn't see it as I was looking for her to pay for our financial mistakes, I realize ignorance is not a valid excuse but I'm trying now to educate myself about what his financial obligations are. There is a part of me that resents that he has to pay don't get me wrong lol but I think it's a small part and in general I don't think I allow it to get to me too much.
For counselling yes, I've been getting some regarding business and finances. Fortunately I'm still young enough that I can make financial mistakes and still recover from them. I do actually have a plan for dealing with the finances, slowly and over time.
As a side note, I got the impression from this last post that you think poorly of me for what I'm doing and asking, but so you know I have actually enjoye the back and forth between us, and you have helped me to look at these things a little different.
Maybe your right and I'm taking the whole concept of stand by your partner a bit far, but if I am, I am doing so by choice and knowing the consequences. I read all the posts on here and yes do ask for advice because I prefer to know what the options are and I hate being surprised by things lol. I'd rather know about what possibilities exist and what options are.
I didn't see it as I was looking for her to pay for our financial mistakes, I realize ignorance is not a valid excuse but I'm trying now to educate myself about what his financial obligations are. There is a part of me that resents that he has to pay don't get me wrong lol but I think it's a small part and in general I don't think I allow it to get to me too much.
For counselling yes, I've been getting some regarding business and finances. Fortunately I'm still young enough that I can make financial mistakes and still recover from them. I do actually have a plan for dealing with the finances, slowly and over time.
As a side note, I got the impression from this last post that you think poorly of me for what I'm doing and asking, but so you know I have actually enjoye the back and forth between us, and you have helped me to look at these things a little different.
arabian
New member
I hope you do look at things objectively because that is what a judge would do.
Your husband and his ex have an agreement where they will exchange financials every year. That has not happened. Before any review or change were to be allowed in court, the financials would have to be examined. If you want to help your husband I would strongly recommend you encourage him to get his financial information up-to-date. Until he is current on his tax filing it is doubtful that that any court would consider reviewing the SA agreement.
I don't know you personally and make my assumptions based upon what you have posted.
Your husband and his ex have an agreement where they will exchange financials every year. That has not happened. Before any review or change were to be allowed in court, the financials would have to be examined. If you want to help your husband I would strongly recommend you encourage him to get his financial information up-to-date. Until he is current on his tax filing it is doubtful that that any court would consider reviewing the SA agreement.
I don't know you personally and make my assumptions based upon what you have posted.
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arabian
New member
If your husband does not file his income tax return, and has taxes owing, CRA can seize his bank account. If he tries to shelter money under your name they can also seize your account. The same goes for GST/HST. I wouldn't mess around with this if I were you. Your husband can make payment arrangement with CRA. I believe their position is it's better to get something rather than nothing.
I try to look at things objectively, I find this forum quite helpful for that aspect. It's not easy though because I'm obviously biased lol again that makes this forum a good sounding board.
I think in the back of my head I knew that the financials would have to be dealt with before any changes occurred, but sometimes having things pointed out makes it more clear. And it makes sense that you can't reasonably expect to change anything without the pertinent info.
I only mentioned that last bit because I didn't want to come across as one of those people who when they post, they get all defensive when they don't hear what they want from others. Again the back and forth between you and I has been quite helpful for me. (Though if I had heard the magic answer of no he doesn't have to pay SS it would have been the best Xmas present ever LOL!!!)
I think in the back of my head I knew that the financials would have to be dealt with before any changes occurred, but sometimes having things pointed out makes it more clear. And it makes sense that you can't reasonably expect to change anything without the pertinent info.
I only mentioned that last bit because I didn't want to come across as one of those people who when they post, they get all defensive when they don't hear what they want from others. Again the back and forth between you and I has been quite helpful for me. (Though if I had heard the magic answer of no he doesn't have to pay SS it would have been the best Xmas present ever LOL!!!)
^^^ this is exactly what happened to a friend of mine - her (now former) husband was an unsuccessful "entrepreneur", didn't file corporate taxes, and attempted to sequester his assets by putting her name on them (and to dilute his own exposure by making her a "director" in his unsuccessful company). She's now in hock to CRA to the tune of $56K and will need years and years to turn her financial situation around. Morals of story - never ever sign any financial document without getting a lawyer to go through it, even if it's coming from your spouse; never ever mix personal and business money; and if your husband/wife is the slightest bit shady about financial matters, that's a pretty big yellow flag (discovering the internet girlfriend in the Dominican Republic was actually what led to the divorce papers being served).