Multivitamins & Supplements - Special & Extraordinary?
- Thread starter Maggie82
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blinkandimgone
Moderator
Unless prescribed by a doctor, they would be a basic need. Cs covers the kids regular, daily expenses.
arabian
New member
no. To say something is suggested by a naturopath has about as much weight as "suggested by the hairdresser" IMO.
here is a case from Alberta where naturopathic medications were deemed to not be an extraordinary expense:
https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/d...hb3JkaW5hcnkgZXhwZW5zZXMAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=2
here is a case from Alberta where naturopathic medications were deemed to not be an extraordinary expense:
https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/d...hb3JkaW5hcnkgZXhwZW5zZXMAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=2
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Maggie82
New member
Some background: Both Mom and Dad have been providing their son with multivitamins and probiotics and what not in their respective homes. Just like they would provide Tylenol or allergy medicine or what not. Recently, Mom took the child to a naturopath who suggested he continue taking daily multivitamins and add some probiotics and veggie smoothies to his daily regimen. Mom bought all the supplements suggested by the naturopath and sent Dad the bill demanding he reimburse her half. Dad feels this is ridiculous as he wasn't consulted prior to the expense and the supplements are basic things like multivitamins and fish oils. Something that Dad feels is reasonably covered in child support like Tylenol or Benadryl or Bandaids. Mom feels otherwise and believes that because the naturopath suggested this "treatment" to ensure the child has a "healthy lifestyle" it is considered a special and extraordinary expense for which Dad should pay.
arabian
New member
I wouldn't be surprised if the "supplements" are sold at naturopath's office and he receives a cut.
In case law I briefly canvassed today, much of extraordinary expenses go to what parents originally agreed to. If this is an expense that was unilaterally decided upon without other parent's approval then she will have to eat it. Lesson to be learned is to get the other parent's ok prior to purchasing the item.
Note the reference to the naturopath in the case law I provided as "quasi-medical individuals" (para. 31):
... I do not intend what I have just stated to confer on Ms. Gilbert unbridled authority to take the child to naturopaths or other quasi-medical individuals nor to purchase for the child, at Mr. Gilbert’s expense, non-prescription medications and health supplements. If, in her judgment, she believes to do so is beneficial for the child she may do so - but not at Mr. Gilbert’s expense....
In case law I briefly canvassed today, much of extraordinary expenses go to what parents originally agreed to. If this is an expense that was unilaterally decided upon without other parent's approval then she will have to eat it. Lesson to be learned is to get the other parent's ok prior to purchasing the item.
Note the reference to the naturopath in the case law I provided as "quasi-medical individuals" (para. 31):
... I do not intend what I have just stated to confer on Ms. Gilbert unbridled authority to take the child to naturopaths or other quasi-medical individuals nor to purchase for the child, at Mr. Gilbert’s expense, non-prescription medications and health supplements. If, in her judgment, she believes to do so is beneficial for the child she may do so - but not at Mr. Gilbert’s expense....
Maggie82
New member
Thanks Arabian. We read the case law and used it to support Dad's position that supplements and non-prescription medications are not considered special and extraordinary expenses and can be reasonably covered by the child support Dad pays.
This is just one of the many attempts for money that has come at Dad recently... coincidently since Mom found out she's pregnant. (She has even gone as far as demanding to know how Dad will increase his support for their child "given the future changes to her family." As if her choosing to have another child is her other child's father's financial problem.)
This is just one of the many attempts for money that has come at Dad recently... coincidently since Mom found out she's pregnant. (She has even gone as far as demanding to know how Dad will increase his support for their child "given the future changes to her family." As if her choosing to have another child is her other child's father's financial problem.)
Maggie82
New member
Another quick question...
Mom says Dad is on the hook for supplements and non prescribed medication because he wasn't opposed to her taking the child to a naturopath. Dad did tell her to go ahead if she wanted to (the visit is covered by dad's health plan), but the issue of supplements was never discussed and Dad never agreed to buying or sharing the cost of supplements. Mom says that Dad's agreement to the visit was also his agreement to share the cost of supplements because they are an expense associated with the visit.
What is irksome in this situation is that Dad has already been providing his son with most of the supplements when his son is with him, as he already has these products in his home for the whole family to use. Mom has never contributed to this cost and was never asked to. But now that Mom wants to also provide supplements for the child, she expects Dad to pay for half of the supplements for her house. One she will likely use for her family as well.
Can she use Dad having no opposition to a naturopathic visit as "agreement" to Dad sharing the cost of supplements? Even though there was never any discussion about it?
Mom says Dad is on the hook for supplements and non prescribed medication because he wasn't opposed to her taking the child to a naturopath. Dad did tell her to go ahead if she wanted to (the visit is covered by dad's health plan), but the issue of supplements was never discussed and Dad never agreed to buying or sharing the cost of supplements. Mom says that Dad's agreement to the visit was also his agreement to share the cost of supplements because they are an expense associated with the visit.
What is irksome in this situation is that Dad has already been providing his son with most of the supplements when his son is with him, as he already has these products in his home for the whole family to use. Mom has never contributed to this cost and was never asked to. But now that Mom wants to also provide supplements for the child, she expects Dad to pay for half of the supplements for her house. One she will likely use for her family as well.
Can she use Dad having no opposition to a naturopathic visit as "agreement" to Dad sharing the cost of supplements? Even though there was never any discussion about it?
Kids go to dentists and they provide advice on braces and parents have to discuss and agree. Kids go to eye doctors and they sell glasses at a higher price point than say costco or lenscrafters and they have to agree. Regardless of whether the supplements are s7 or not, mom made a choice to purchase without dads input.
Why is he continuing to engage? He needs to say no these are covered by child support and not extraordinary and he wont be paying for them. Period. The end. Any response is set on ignore.
Why is he continuing to engage? He needs to say no these are covered by child support and not extraordinary and he wont be paying for them. Period. The end. Any response is set on ignore.
A naturopath isn't a doctor, therefore can't "prescribe" supplements. This comes under the heading of suggestions, not medical advice or necessity. If Mom wants to give Kid supplements, that's fine, but Dad can choose not to pay for them. If the naturopath was a medical doctor, it might be different.
Just say no, and then stop discussing this with Mom. You aren't going to convince her that Dad is right.
Just say no, and then stop discussing this with Mom. You aren't going to convince her that Dad is right.
in my case I have an autistic son and I pay $200, extra a month for the very same things you listed , my ex is under employed and she was able to get that added to the support order , how ever she is giving my son marijuana capsules that she is making at home so things are before the courts cause there is no way in hell that counts as a suppliment
Maggie82
New member
Thank you for your replies, Rockscan and Stripes. You are both right. There is no convincing Mom that Dad is ever right. It is time to stop responding. It's just heartbreaking to see the Dad-bashing that ensues every time Dad stands his ground and doesn't let himself be used as Mom's personal ATM. Dad pays support as per the Guidelines and adjusts accordingly every year. He also pays for half of 6 extracurricular activities and 2 camps per year, as well as for half his son's monthly cell phone bill. Not only that, he provides all the necessities (including clothing - which is a battle Dad stopped fighting years ago) in his home for the every-other-weekends that his son is with him. Yet every time Mom demands money and Dad says no, Mom belittles him and goes on and on about how he doesn't care for his son or have his son's health and best interest at heart, and how he only wants to "weasel" his way out of paying for his son's necessities, etc. You'd think we'd be used to it after 12 years but it still cuts deep. As I'm sure many of you can relate.
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Maggie82
New member
That's interesting. Do you think it was her underemployment or you're son's condition that caused the judge to view basic supplements (multivitamins, probiotics, fish oils) as an extraordinary expense? From what I've read and the info I've received here, it seems that health supplements and non-prescription medication is typically not considered special and extraordinary unless mutually agreed upon by the parties.
I wish you all the best in court.
I think it was both , I want my child to have what he needs and the judge could see she was just wasting time and she had asked for $400.00 orginally but I gave the judge a text from her demanding 400 a month for spousal support that wasn't granted to her so she listed 400 for suppliments and he split it to 200 each , she could produce recipts so basically he split it and got us out of his court room cause she just wastes everyones time
If it's still cutting this deep after 12 years, may I suggest that Dad seek some professional help from a counselor (by himself, individually)? Dad may be able to learn new ways to detach from the emotions that Mom evokes, and to enable the people around him to detach as well. It sounds like Dad know what to do - when Mom makes unreasonable requests - just say no - but the part that comes next, putting Mom's issues down and walking away from them, is not working so well for him. Twelve years is too long, and makes me think that this dynamic may have become a routine - Mom wants something, Dad says no, Mom gets mad, Dad reacts by feeling sad. He may need help breaking this emotional habit.
Multivitamins & Supplements - Special & Extraordinary?
Im with stripeson this one. 12 years is a long time. Your husband needs to see someone for two reasons: first to learn how to disengage and walk away and second on how to manage the relationship with his child. Im not sure how old but divorced parents walk a fine line between being ATMs and a parent. Its not unreasonable for dad to say no and if kid says anything he just responds with "im sorry your mother felt it was appropriate to discuss this with you. This is between the two of us and I dont want you to be in the middle."
My partner attended therapy on how to deal with his kids and the money and the bad mouthing. His therapist stressed the need to set boundaries, stand firm on those boundaries and disengage after. Its not easy. I think once dad starts disengaging he will notice the stress will reduce because it ends the back and forth.
Im with stripeson this one. 12 years is a long time. Your husband needs to see someone for two reasons: first to learn how to disengage and walk away and second on how to manage the relationship with his child. Im not sure how old but divorced parents walk a fine line between being ATMs and a parent. Its not unreasonable for dad to say no and if kid says anything he just responds with "im sorry your mother felt it was appropriate to discuss this with you. This is between the two of us and I dont want you to be in the middle."
My partner attended therapy on how to deal with his kids and the money and the bad mouthing. His therapist stressed the need to set boundaries, stand firm on those boundaries and disengage after. Its not easy. I think once dad starts disengaging he will notice the stress will reduce because it ends the back and forth.
Maggie82
New member
Stripes, Rockscan... Dad did go see a counsellor originally. It was ordered by the judge. Basically Dad was instructed to disengage and not let Mom's vile words to get to him. Mom was also ordered to get counselling to help her with her anger and jealousy and negativity toward Dad. As far as we know, she never went. Because Mom and Dad were never together, there is no emotional connection. Just the regular kick in the teeth when Dad stands his ground. Dad thinks it's so Mom feels better about herself as a parent, because she's "standing up for her child" or whatever. Dad is pretty good at not letting it get to him but it's frustrating seeing such untruths spoken and written about Dad, who's doing the best he can given the circumstances. Especially when Mom threatens to show their child these emails (of Dad saying no to things). The child is 12 so he is old enough to understand... and unfortunately believes everything Mom tells him. Which is another battle altogether.
Maggie82
New member
We have that book on our bookshelf somewhere!
Counselling - *sigh* - we have forever tried to get the child to see a counsellor. With parents and without. Mom won't go for it. And because it's joint custody, the counsellor requires consent from both parents. The only time we were successful win getting the child some counselling was when Mom met a man overseas on vacation, married him, and brought him here to live with her and the child. It wasn't a good time in the kid's life and he was very distraught about it. Dad offered to take over physical custody until Mom got her new life in order, but Mom refused. The best we could do was convince her to allow the child to see a counsellor. He only went 3 times before Mom deemed that everything was fine and stopped the sessions. Sadly, the older the child gets, the more issues are beginning to surface. He is a classic case of Oedipus Complex and it is becoming very evident. Especially now that he is in competition with Mom's husband. Unfortunately, Mom feels that they "just have a very close and loving relationship" that Dad is jealous of and wants to ruin. But that is a whole other battle entirely.
Dad has tried to have sincere chats with his son to reassure him that he loves him and would do anything for him... but those chats get back to Mom (in a classic case of broken telephone as the kid needs to spin things in Mom's favour in order to get her approval) and then Dad hears from Mom about his "brainwashing" and "lies" and what not.
As much as, as parents, we want to fight all the battles and stand up for our children, in certain situations, it's just easier to pick your battles and let certain things roll off your back the best you can.
Well, yes there is an emotional connection. If Dad is so angry and frustrated and so forth at Mom after twelve years, he's connected to her. Anger is an emotion. He can't change the way Mom behaves, but he can learn skills to change his response and distance himself (for instance, offering to take Kid full-time when Mom re-married might not have been a good idea). This sounds like a classic enmeshment scenario, in which Mom, Dad, Dad's new partner (which I assume is you), and possibly Mom's new partner as well are all caught up in ongoing dramas around parenting for more than a decade.
Sometimes it's hard to see one's own enmeshment because the emotional logic is so persuasive - Mom is terrible! She's brainwashing the child! She's verbally aggressive to Dad! Of course I'm angry! - but unless you and Dad want to spend the next decade like this, you need to learn how to keep Mom is her proper place, as something that needs to be dealt with from time to time (think of an unreliable car, perhaps), not as someone who has the power to get you worked up.