Mediation
- Thread starter WEC
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FightingForFamily
Member
Ask the mediator. It depends on the issues.
If it's the first session, it may help to start fresh and go in with a list of the issues rather than going in with a set of preconceived expectations for how to resolve them. You will want to bring some standard documentation like 3 years of tax returns, perhaps a current budget, an NFP if you have one.
Take this with a grain of salt. I haven't done mediation myself. Honestly, speak to the mediator.
If it's the first session, it may help to start fresh and go in with a list of the issues rather than going in with a set of preconceived expectations for how to resolve them. You will want to bring some standard documentation like 3 years of tax returns, perhaps a current budget, an NFP if you have one.
Take this with a grain of salt. I haven't done mediation myself. Honestly, speak to the mediator.
FightingForFamily
Member
I found the negotiation of the separation agreement is basically a golden apple problem.
Each party has their "golden apple". This is the item or issue that they value more than all of the others. If the mediator or the parties can discover the golden apples (which sometimes aren't obvious) it becomes much simpler.
In my case, the golden apple turned out to be giving my partner back the down payment on our house which came from her family. She wasn't legally entitled to it, but it was the thing that pissed her off the most (me getting some of her family money in equalization). My golden apple was that I wanted joint custody and decision making because our son has special needs and I wanted him to have both parents involved in deciding how to get those needs met to give him the best chance of success.
Once we learned what was most important to each of us, the rest of the pieces (even spousal support) were agreed to much more easily.
It's also pretty much impossible to discover the golden apples by having lawyers firing angry letters at each other. The parties have to communicate with each other what they want, and why they want it. It can take time for that to all come out.
Each party has their "golden apple". This is the item or issue that they value more than all of the others. If the mediator or the parties can discover the golden apples (which sometimes aren't obvious) it becomes much simpler.
In my case, the golden apple turned out to be giving my partner back the down payment on our house which came from her family. She wasn't legally entitled to it, but it was the thing that pissed her off the most (me getting some of her family money in equalization). My golden apple was that I wanted joint custody and decision making because our son has special needs and I wanted him to have both parents involved in deciding how to get those needs met to give him the best chance of success.
Once we learned what was most important to each of us, the rest of the pieces (even spousal support) were agreed to much more easily.
It's also pretty much impossible to discover the golden apples by having lawyers firing angry letters at each other. The parties have to communicate with each other what they want, and why they want it. It can take time for that to all come out.
oh i see. for him i think its fear of dividing assets and paying cs ss imho. for her i really think its about the kids and keeping them as close to their previous routines as possible. my friend isnt budging. maybe i can suggest to him your idea of the golden apples. thanks for the tip!
Straittohell
New member
Both of their fears are probably stupid.
Let me explain.
If he makes more money, he's going to have to pay support. He will have to accept that.
The kids routines WILL change somewhat, and she's now going to have to share certain things with the dad. He might want 50-50, and she may not think that is reasonable. She will have to accept that it is.
The biggest thing that both parties can do to prepare for mediation is to accept that things have changed and will continue to change, and they need to pull their heads out of their asses and change with it.
Let me explain.
If he makes more money, he's going to have to pay support. He will have to accept that.
The kids routines WILL change somewhat, and she's now going to have to share certain things with the dad. He might want 50-50, and she may not think that is reasonable. She will have to accept that it is.
The biggest thing that both parties can do to prepare for mediation is to accept that things have changed and will continue to change, and they need to pull their heads out of their asses and change with it.
hi serene. can you point me to your thread? i'm new here.
kids are 4 3 and 1 all girls. i never really liked the mother but saw the court material. ive grown some respect for her because she does sound pretty reasonable. she wants to get the kids to school age before a 50-50 and set a date when she proposes it to start. shes initially wanted a 30-70 but has compromised to a short-term 40-60. my friend wants her to agree to 20 so that he doesn't have to pay any support. this is what he wants to go into mediation with the offer that hasnt been negotiated. i encourage him to be more reasonable because this stuff gets found out and i don't think itll look good for him. who knows if he'll drop me as a friend but trying because i do care about what happens to him. can he lose the kids if hes unreasonable like that?
Straittohell
New member
Her reasons for delaying 50-50 are unreasonable, as dad's are perfectly capable of handling even 1 year old kids just as well.
His reason of getting more access for his kids so that he doesn't pay support is callous and selfish.
He will not get them more than 60% unless she is incompetent, so he better accept early on that he will be paying some kind of child support if he makes more money than her. He should let the mediator explain exactly how it will go down.
From my own personal experience in mediation, I clued in pretty quickly that any posturing and maneuvering around child support is completely pointless. The amounts are largely determined by federally establish tables, and are difficult to challenge. He won't lose his kids by being an idiot about it, but he won't get them more than 60% of the time either, so he may as well just drop it. Same thing with division of assets. All assets and debt gets divided 50-50 in most cases, and it is only in the exact nature of the split (who keeps the house, who keeps the pension, etc. etc.) that either party has any control over.
With that stuff in mind, I made my own focus in mediation to be about managing how much I would have to pay (or not pay) in spousal. It was a smart decision on my part, because by settling the non-issues earlier, I was able to focus more on that little golden egg of mine.
Bottom line is that your friend needs to pick his battles, and know where to give concessions so that he has enough bargaining chips set aside to get the things that are most important to him.
His reason of getting more access for his kids so that he doesn't pay support is callous and selfish.
He will not get them more than 60% unless she is incompetent, so he better accept early on that he will be paying some kind of child support if he makes more money than her. He should let the mediator explain exactly how it will go down.
From my own personal experience in mediation, I clued in pretty quickly that any posturing and maneuvering around child support is completely pointless. The amounts are largely determined by federally establish tables, and are difficult to challenge. He won't lose his kids by being an idiot about it, but he won't get them more than 60% of the time either, so he may as well just drop it. Same thing with division of assets. All assets and debt gets divided 50-50 in most cases, and it is only in the exact nature of the split (who keeps the house, who keeps the pension, etc. etc.) that either party has any control over.
With that stuff in mind, I made my own focus in mediation to be about managing how much I would have to pay (or not pay) in spousal. It was a smart decision on my part, because by settling the non-issues earlier, I was able to focus more on that little golden egg of mine.
Bottom line is that your friend needs to pick his battles, and know where to give concessions so that he has enough bargaining chips set aside to get the things that are most important to him.
will he compromise his case going in with an older offer to the mother for 20 to avoid support? will the mother seem more reasonable for budging from a set 30-70 to a temporary 40-60? they're going into something called open mediation which i think can be used in court. what can i tell him? i never really liked her much but i dont think hes really thinking about the kids.
Straittohell
New member
You should re-read what I just wrote.
Picking a selfish, unreasonable, and unrealistic position will not 'compromise' his case, he just won't be successful.
They should be ditching all of their respective posturing and picking a 60-40, or 50-50 position, and they should be discussing, like proper adults, how they would build a schedule around what would benefit the kids.
He has to recognize that he will be paying support. She has to recognize that she won't get to see her kids as much. They're both going to lose something out of this, but that's what divorce is.
Your friend should come on this site, browse the various threads and/or horror stories, consider what the vast majority of people end up getting, and then be reasonable.
Picking a selfish, unreasonable, and unrealistic position will not 'compromise' his case, he just won't be successful.
They should be ditching all of their respective posturing and picking a 60-40, or 50-50 position, and they should be discussing, like proper adults, how they would build a schedule around what would benefit the kids.
He has to recognize that he will be paying support. She has to recognize that she won't get to see her kids as much. They're both going to lose something out of this, but that's what divorce is.
Your friend should come on this site, browse the various threads and/or horror stories, consider what the vast majority of people end up getting, and then be reasonable.
omg omg omg!
omg omg omg!
just spoke with my friend. we're both attending a conference and im just about to go into a meeting. this is quick and hopefully when its done i might have some answers here.
i asked if he was going to draft a new offer for mediation and suggested it would be better for him. all he said was 'there's something to say for an alcoholic and the mentally ill. sexual abuse is not tolerated either. everythings good.' he tipped his hat and walked off to his next meeting.
im confused and a bit afraid about what hes intending to do. i never liked her she was quiet but always a good mom. she was friendly enough but i didnt have anything in common with her. shes a stayathome mom with odd jobs. i travel and have a career. she has kids i dont. we have nothing in common.
she has sole custody of a teenage son from a previous relationship.
im afraid for what he implied. am i out of my mind to think the worst in what he said to me? is this possible? did i imagine the implication? i dont even know what im supposed to understand since i asked about preparing for mediation. what damage will this do if i heard it right? omg!
i dont know how to contact her. she changed her numbers and blocked me from facebook. i dont know where she lives. im out of town too. i also dont want to come across like a loon!
anyone have thoughts? sorry gotta go. shoot!
omg omg omg!
just spoke with my friend. we're both attending a conference and im just about to go into a meeting. this is quick and hopefully when its done i might have some answers here.
i asked if he was going to draft a new offer for mediation and suggested it would be better for him. all he said was 'there's something to say for an alcoholic and the mentally ill. sexual abuse is not tolerated either. everythings good.' he tipped his hat and walked off to his next meeting.
im confused and a bit afraid about what hes intending to do. i never liked her she was quiet but always a good mom. she was friendly enough but i didnt have anything in common with her. shes a stayathome mom with odd jobs. i travel and have a career. she has kids i dont. we have nothing in common.
she has sole custody of a teenage son from a previous relationship.
im afraid for what he implied. am i out of my mind to think the worst in what he said to me? is this possible? did i imagine the implication? i dont even know what im supposed to understand since i asked about preparing for mediation. what damage will this do if i heard it right? omg!
i dont know how to contact her. she changed her numbers and blocked me from facebook. i dont know where she lives. im out of town too. i also dont want to come across like a loon!
anyone have thoughts? sorry gotta go. shoot!
DowntroddenDad
New member
Take a deep breath.
People say all kinds of BS during a separation, it brings out the worst in people. People make all kinds of allegations, many of them untrue.
In court, it isn't what you say, it is what you can prove.
Mental illness -is there a diagnosis from a psychiatrist?
Alcoholism - is there an admission or doctors diagnosis?
Sexual Abuse?
I've been accused of gambling, being abusive and controlling. My ex would wholeheartedly deny she said those things today.
People say all kinds of BS during a separation, it brings out the worst in people. People make all kinds of allegations, many of them untrue.
In court, it isn't what you say, it is what you can prove.
Mental illness -is there a diagnosis from a psychiatrist?
Alcoholism - is there an admission or doctors diagnosis?
Sexual Abuse?
I've been accused of gambling, being abusive and controlling. My ex would wholeheartedly deny she said those things today.
got out of my last meeting a few minutes early. noticed my post was moved. sorry if i posted on wrong board... thanks for your response dtd. to answer your questions: mental illness? never appeared the case. my friend always described her as the center of his world and how much he loves her. alcoholism? aside from a drink or two provided by him, at every function i saw her manage not only their kids but everyone's kids. it was a bit of a running joke that 'entertainment' didnt need to be hired if she was coming. she kept all the kids pretty busy and they loved her. sexual abuse? from her son? no. ive never gotten a weird vibe from him. helpful, smart, funny and usually assumed the role of a server whenever we all got together. a really sweet young man.
my friend always described her to be everything to him. he never complained about her capabilities to care for children and i certainly witnessed that capability. he always talked her up to be incredible. i dont know what my friend is about to do if he hasnt already. it concerns me i feel stuck. and i feel sick.
i guess im asking what will happen to her if he does do something stupid. will the kids be taken from her and will she be investigated? criminally? civilly? i think this is wrong but struggle with what he implied earlier today. havent seen him since and im kinda glad. what will happen to the boy's future if hes charged criminally for a bogus offense? he wants to be a lawyer.
is any of this allowed in family law? what are the laws? more importantly what are the holes in the law if hes planning on strategically basing his case on these types of accusations to avoid support obligations? how can i talk him out of it if i heard him right? i dont know if hes implemented any action but i am truly left with a chilling sense. why would i as a long-time friend encourage reasonable mediation if i suspect underhanded maneuvers to get her to agree to 20 access.
will she be robbed of the 3 little kids until this settles? what is she up against? do i have to listen to my friend and support what i think he'll do when i dont see a basis for it? based on my own experience growing up i cant think that this will be good for those 3 little girls.
my friend always described her to be everything to him. he never complained about her capabilities to care for children and i certainly witnessed that capability. he always talked her up to be incredible. i dont know what my friend is about to do if he hasnt already. it concerns me i feel stuck. and i feel sick.
i guess im asking what will happen to her if he does do something stupid. will the kids be taken from her and will she be investigated? criminally? civilly? i think this is wrong but struggle with what he implied earlier today. havent seen him since and im kinda glad. what will happen to the boy's future if hes charged criminally for a bogus offense? he wants to be a lawyer.
is any of this allowed in family law? what are the laws? more importantly what are the holes in the law if hes planning on strategically basing his case on these types of accusations to avoid support obligations? how can i talk him out of it if i heard him right? i dont know if hes implemented any action but i am truly left with a chilling sense. why would i as a long-time friend encourage reasonable mediation if i suspect underhanded maneuvers to get her to agree to 20 access.
will she be robbed of the 3 little kids until this settles? what is she up against? do i have to listen to my friend and support what i think he'll do when i dont see a basis for it? based on my own experience growing up i cant think that this will be good for those 3 little girls.
i did read your original contribution. thank you. a bit has transpired since. i started another thread with omg! and it got moved to the general chat board. im sorry i posted on the wrong board but it was a followup to this thread.
i think my friend is about to go nuts. i dont know how im going to be implicated but i get the feeling he wont by counting on me for anything much further. i think hes making massive mistakes. i didnt like her but she has been a really good mom.
i think my friend is about to go nuts. i dont know how im going to be implicated but i get the feeling he wont by counting on me for anything much further. i think hes making massive mistakes. i didnt like her but she has been a really good mom.
This doesn't make sense. The types of allegations your friend is making will not enable him to avoid paying support. No judge is going to say "well, dad says mom is a mentally ill alcoholic, so her kids shouldn't receive financial support from dad". If anything, these antics will give him more financial responsibility, because if mom is such an unfit parent, why isn't dad taking over primary responsibility for the kids?
These kinds of allegations (I'm going to assume they're false) are the sorts of things people say when
a) they're trying to get sole custody of the kids by making the other party out to be a neglectful or dangerous parent; or
b) they're in the grip of rage and not thinking clearly and just trying to spread as much poison about their ex as possible.
Given what you've said about the situation, it sounds like the second is the case.
You don't have to support your friend if he's acting this way. If the opportunity presents itself, you can point out that he is going to find himself in a world of hurt if he's lying about his ex in legal proceedings. He needs to calm down, put on his big-boy pants, and think more about what's good for his kids and less about how much he hates his ex.
These kinds of allegations (I'm going to assume they're false) are the sorts of things people say when
a) they're trying to get sole custody of the kids by making the other party out to be a neglectful or dangerous parent; or
b) they're in the grip of rage and not thinking clearly and just trying to spread as much poison about their ex as possible.
Given what you've said about the situation, it sounds like the second is the case.
You don't have to support your friend if he's acting this way. If the opportunity presents itself, you can point out that he is going to find himself in a world of hurt if he's lying about his ex in legal proceedings. He needs to calm down, put on his big-boy pants, and think more about what's good for his kids and less about how much he hates his ex.
DowntroddenDad
New member
Respectfully, stay out of it. It isn't your fight. Be a friend and supportive, but don't get involved. Make sure she has a competent lawyer.
You or I can't predict how it will play out. Accusations of this type would normally go to the CAS for investigation. They will determine whether or not there are any issues to risk custody.
blinkandimgone
Moderator
Yeah...on being a friend and being supportive: not at all sure that I could - or would even want to - be friends with someone who would participate in this kind of thing.
Tell him how you feel and what you really think of what he's doing and then stay out of it. If this is a 'friend' you're dating....you may want to consider if this is the type of person you really want to be around.
Tell him how you feel and what you really think of what he's doing and then stay out of it. If this is a 'friend' you're dating....you may want to consider if this is the type of person you really want to be around.
Pursuinghappiness
New member
If you really want to know who someone is...watch them go through a divorce.
Your friend sounds like a giant ass and I'd reconsider my friendship with him.
However, as far as their case goes if she has a competent lawyer, she'll most likely be fine. Judges hear this nasty, salacious nonsense every day. What matters is evidence...if he doesn't have any, its not going to come to much. She may end up with some stress and a bigger legal bill than necessary but she'll probably be fine.
Ultimately, there's nothing you can do anyway. I'd do my best to stay out of it.
If you talk to him, I'd advise him to be fair to the mother of his children. In the best case, she'll ignore him and it won't get him anywhere and if she retaliates, it could get messy and expensive for both of them and that's always bad for the kids. Also tell him to consider what happens after the divorce is over. If he attacks her in this way now, how easy is it going to be for a custody evaluator to suggest co-parenting? And if they do, how much conflict will they have in trying to co-parent? If you friend had any sense of decency, he'd be fair and consider the needs of his children....not his need for vengeance. So many parents don't consider what happens after the divorce order is signed.
If you ever talk to her, the only thing I'd say to her is congratulations. Sounds like she's getting rid of a real piece of crap.
Your friend sounds like a giant ass and I'd reconsider my friendship with him.
However, as far as their case goes if she has a competent lawyer, she'll most likely be fine. Judges hear this nasty, salacious nonsense every day. What matters is evidence...if he doesn't have any, its not going to come to much. She may end up with some stress and a bigger legal bill than necessary but she'll probably be fine.
Ultimately, there's nothing you can do anyway. I'd do my best to stay out of it.
If you talk to him, I'd advise him to be fair to the mother of his children. In the best case, she'll ignore him and it won't get him anywhere and if she retaliates, it could get messy and expensive for both of them and that's always bad for the kids. Also tell him to consider what happens after the divorce is over. If he attacks her in this way now, how easy is it going to be for a custody evaluator to suggest co-parenting? And if they do, how much conflict will they have in trying to co-parent? If you friend had any sense of decency, he'd be fair and consider the needs of his children....not his need for vengeance. So many parents don't consider what happens after the divorce order is signed.
If you ever talk to her, the only thing I'd say to her is congratulations. Sounds like she's getting rid of a real piece of crap.