Matrimonial debt and credit cards

[stripes]

Asking on behalf of a friend (I think I know the answer but want to confirm):

She's initiating a divorce. He's moved out but forgot to get his mail forwarded. She's getting credit card statements for 10 cards in his name that she didn't know existed. She opened them (and yes, I know you're not supposed to open other people's mail) and found roughly $100K in credit card debt, all cards almost maxed out, current finance charges roughly $6K/month. She didn't recognize any of the recent purchases (mainly alcohol and restaurant meals). STBX says this is marital debt and she's half responsible, she says no it isn't because the cards were in his name, paid out of his bank account without her knowledge, and none of the purchases benefited the household (as far as she can tell).

So is this debt she will have to share?

 

[arabian]

I think your friend is living in another reality.

If someone racks up 100k in restaurant/entertainment I find it 'fantastic' to say the other didn't know about it, particularly if the two were living together. Over what time period did the "binging" occur?

This is likely matrimonial debt (can be in either person's name) if debt accumulated during the period of the marriage IMO.

also... if the credit card bills were coming to the matrimonial home all along, it's pretty lame to try to say you didn't know the debt existed. Does your friend think these credit card companies simply mailed out blank statements for shits and giggles?

 

[Janus]

Offhand, I would say that debt incurred during marriage is pretty much automagically marital debt. I have seen exceptions for gambling debts, but not much else. I don't think alcohol and restaurants are a special case that would somehow cause the debt to be excluded.

I am assuming that this debt occurred before separation. If the debt occurred after separation it is of course just personal debt.

 

[Janus]

Also: Your friend lost a good chance to be sneaky. I would have let him fill out his financial disclosure, sign it, and then provide evidence that he was lying. The credibility hit would have been priceless.

 

[arabian]

Also: Your friend lost a good chance to be sneaky. I would have let him fill out his financial disclosure, sign it, and then provide evidence that he was lying. The credibility hit would have been priceless.

Initially I was thinking the same thing but I think this may be more of a case of a couple living beyond their means.... blame game.

 

[rockscan]

I know someone whose ex did this. Took out cards and maxed them out to furnish her new life. It was marital debt and they went bankrupt.


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[arabian]

I know someone whose ex did this. Took out cards and maxed them out to furnish her new life. It was marital debt and they went bankrupt.


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I'm sure it happens frequently^especially if bills are sent by email. However, to pretend to not know about "10" cards if bills were coming to the home all along? Even the standard of living would/should alert someone. I can assure you that I would have noticed if my ex racked up 100k in restaurant/booze.

 

[stripes]

Friend's STBX has big addiction problems and she assumes most of the debt is related to that (alcohol plus lots of cash advances). The statements came to the house but STBX always got them before she saw them (I'm getting all this from her, of course - it may or may not be completely true). (And the $100K is just the outstanding balance - who knows how much he charged on the cards and then paid off?).

They also had an arrangement whereby he paid the mortgage (house in both their names) and she paid the other households bills (taxes, utilities etc) and they reconciled at the end of each year. She got a call from the bank saying that the mortgage hadn't been paid in full for several months. So her credit rating is in trouble, and she has to take on paying the mortgage in full herself, at least until they manage to sell the house, at the same time as lawyer bills. It's your basic financial disaster.

I too think it would be hard to miss if my spouse was living so far beyond his/our means, but denial seems to be very powerful. She was in denial about his addictions for years until the evidence could no longer be explained away.

I guess the takeaway is to always keep your own finances separate and don't let your partner pick up the mail every day. Sad.

 

[arabian]

I know people where the husband (high-income earner) put around 100k up his nose in under a 2-year period. He ended up going to one of those expensive rehab places in the US for 6 months and joining NA. When he quit buying the coke his supplier wasn't happy and their house subsequently was broken into while she was home. (Wife was in denial about addiction and this was a big wake-up call to her). A very scary time for her. Interestingly, this couple stayed together. It took her going back to work (after a 15 year absence) to help pay down the debt and plenty of family counselling. Now the two of them are both doing well and looking forward to retirement together with ample money in the bank. They are one of the few fortunate couples who manage to survive addition.

 

[arabian]

Friend's STBX has big addiction problems and she assumes most of the debt is related to that (alcohol plus lots of cash advances). The statements came to the house but STBX always got them before she saw them (I'm getting all this from her, of course - it may or may not be completely true). (And the $100K is just the outstanding balance - who knows how much he charged on the cards and then paid off?).

They also had an arrangement whereby he paid the mortgage (house in both their names) and she paid the other households bills (taxes, utilities etc) and they reconciled at the end of each year. She got a call from the bank saying that the mortgage hadn't been paid in full for several months. So her credit rating is in trouble, and she has to take on paying the mortgage in full herself, at least until they manage to sell the house, at the same time as lawyer bills. It's your basic financial disaster.

I too think it would be hard to miss if my spouse was living so far beyond his/our means, but denial seems to be very powerful. She was in denial about his addictions for years until the evidence could no longer be explained away.

I guess the takeaway is to always keep your own finances separate and don't let your partner pick up the mail every day. Sad.

If your friend's husband still has his job then she should look at getting an interim order for automatic deduction of his income for Interim Spousal support to pay mortgage. Also she can meet with bank and lay out the situation, namely his addition and what she is doing about it financially) and see if bank can offer some sort of short-term payment arrangement.

If she doesn't take some sort of measure to get his income from source then there would be no reason/no repercussion for him to not pay. Sometimes one has to treat irresponsible people like children. This sounds as though this is one of those situations.

 

[Tayken]

Also: Your friend lost a good chance to be sneaky. I would have let him fill out his financial disclosure, sign it, and then provide evidence that he was lying. The credibility hit would have been priceless.

This ^^^ isn't at all being sneaky. It is good legal conduct in my opinion.

 

[stripes]

If your friend's husband still has his job then she should look at getting an interim order for automatic deduction of his income for Interim Spousal support to pay mortgage. Also she can meet with bank and lay out the situation, namely his addition and what she is doing about it financially) and see if bank can offer some sort of short-term payment arrangement.

If she doesn't take some sort of measure to get his income from source then there would be no reason/no repercussion for him to not pay. Sometimes one has to treat irresponsible people like children. This sounds as though this is one of those situations.

She says she talked to the bank and was told that if she paid the arrears and committed to paying the mortgage through withdrawals from an account in her name only, the damage to her credit would be undone. It also looks like credit card debt incurred before separation will not be excluded from the equalization calculations (in other words, she's going to end up with her share of the equalization reduced by half the amount owing on his cards as of the date of separation, even though he's still responsible for actually paying off the creditors).

 

[arabian]

I was pretty sure that banks can help out ... your friend is not the only person in the world married to an addict.

However we have to remember that the is co-dependent issues that she should immediately seek counselling for. Yes, she will pay for her "denial" one way or another.


The Interim SS Order through a maintenance enforcement agency should give her some additional relief (kind of a fast-tracking way to ensure she isn't sitting with having to pay for everything right now). These things typically go through court quickly as it motivates parties to come to agreements. If he doesn't pay her he will pay the bankruptcy trustee an overage amount (which would hold up his bankruptcy to possibly 3 years instead of 9 months, assuming this is his first bankruptcy) so it is in his favor to agree on consent to a deduction order for SS through MEP.

 

[Newfie76]

The Interim SS Order through a maintenance enforcement agency should give her some additional relief (kind of a fast-tracking way to ensure she isn't sitting with having to pay for everything right now). .

SS on what grounds? He prevented her from working? He locked her up in the house and was never to leave? She was too lazy to find work while married? She was looking for a free ride? He said she could never get an education? He said she had to raise the kids? She said she wanted to raise the kids? etc.

Anytime a man (or women) were to prevent another human being from working and or getting an education, first of all it should be a criminal case, otherwise I would support SS on the basis its currently legal to prevent a spouse to do activities today.

Any time a women or man decides on his/her own (everyone is an independent person with rights) to not get an education or work while married (with or without children) should never be entitled to SS. Any other way is unethical...and contributes toward the deteriorating mental health of those FORCED to pay for life.

 

[piggybanktoex]

Amen, Brother, Amen

 

[Janus]

SS on what grounds?

I think in this case Arabian meant it as a workaround to get him paying his share of the joint debts. If he chooses not to pay (because he is likely looking at bankruptcy anyway with that credit card debt) the wife can easily get her assets trashed.

Any time a women or man decides on his/her own to not get an education or work while married [they] should never be entitled to SS.

I said this to Arabian not too long ago, but words like "never" rarely have an appropriate place in an opinionated statement. I'm hardly a fan of SS, and I think that the quantum and duration of SS awards handed out in court are crazy, but there are many situations where SS is quite appropriate.

Essentially, compensatory SS can make sense. Needs based SS often makes substantially less sense.

 

[arabian]

Arabian's ex declared bankruptcy immediately at the time of separation leaving Arabian personally on the hook for corporate and personal debt (Director's liability for company debt). The only way Arabian was able to recoup SOME money was through maintenance enforcement.

 

[Carnut]

I'm sure it happens frequently^especially if bills are sent by email. However, to pretend to not know about "10" cards if bills were coming to the home all along? Even the standard of living would/should alert someone. I can assure you that I would have noticed if my ex racked up 100k in restaurant/booze.

My ex forged my signature to get a credit card in my name, then racked up debt. I never had a clue. I never saw the mail, found out much later. It was easy to prove. But you know what? It was marital debt. Case closed.
A court doesnt care about details of debt as much as many people think.
Credit cards with huge debts before separation are marital debt - don't bother with this kind of stuff, just be bitter and move forward.....

 

[Tayken]

My ex forged my signature to get a credit card in my name, then racked up debt. I never had a clue. I never saw the mail, found out much later. It was easy to prove. But you know what? It was marital debt. Case closed.
A court doesnt care about details of debt as much as many people think.
Credit cards with huge debts before separation are marital debt - don't bother with this kind of stuff, just be bitter and move forward.....

There are other ways to deal with that issue. First you should be working with the credit card company to resolve the issue. They issued a card to a fraudulent holder.

Identity Theft and Identity Fraud - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Family Court is a civil court. You can't make claims of criminal conduct in them. If you have a case do what the RCMP recommends to resolve the issue.

 

[Carnut]

There are other ways to deal with that issue. First you should be working with the credit card company to resolve the issue. They issued a card to a fraudulent holder.

Identity Theft and Identity Fraud - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Family Court is a civil court. You can't make claims of criminal conduct in them. If you have a case do what the RCMP recommends to resolve the issue.

I never tried to make claims in court. My ex was brutal in stealing money from my family. Last six months she funneled tens of thousands straight out of family account. It was all on paper. She drained family money the whole marriage.
Lied in court. Said she never worked the whole marriage to try to STEAL spousal support from me. I laughed. I said LOOK AT HER T4s!!!! Judge refused. I now pay spousal support for the rest of my working life.

Those of you who think there is "justice" in family law better BUCKLE UP. It sure isn't what I would call "justice".