Making sure im on the right path.
- Thread starter SynGreis
- Start date
arabian
New member
I like to drink wine. Over the past 10 yrs I used to get together regularly with women who were anywhere from 10 - 20 yrs older than me and we would drink wine. Heck we'd usually have wine by 11:30 and by 3:00 we'd have a shot or two of good single malt. We played bridge 2 - 3 times a week. Now some of these old biddies (60 - 80 yrs old) were great grandmothers.
Usually there were designated drivers (grand kids) unless someone lived 5 houses away and yes the old gals would drive their Mercs down the street.
If the child's mother is present, or yourself, then the child is under sober controlled care. If the granny is soused from sunrise to sunset then the child will probably hear stories from the "good old days" over, over and over.
If you don't want your daughter to be raised with drunk granny then maybe you should do something about it, including but not limited to, ensuring the mother has a drunk-granny-free home to come home to when she isn't visiting with you.
Hiccup. Hiccup.
Usually there were designated drivers (grand kids) unless someone lived 5 houses away and yes the old gals would drive their Mercs down the street.
If the child's mother is present, or yourself, then the child is under sober controlled care. If the granny is soused from sunrise to sunset then the child will probably hear stories from the "good old days" over, over and over.
If you don't want your daughter to be raised with drunk granny then maybe you should do something about it, including but not limited to, ensuring the mother has a drunk-granny-free home to come home to when she isn't visiting with you.
Hiccup. Hiccup.
while reviewing the topic, i for some reason did not post a reply. Mess, i will include this in my brief as a possible medium for an agreement. Thank you.
Hey guys, so i spent all night staying up and preparing an offer to settle.
i removed all the names for personal reasons.
let me know what you think, kinna threw it together, im pretty sure i threw in all the important things for now.
www.dosrpg.net/other/ots.doc
i removed all the names for personal reasons.
let me know what you think, kinna threw it together, im pretty sure i threw in all the important things for now.
www.dosrpg.net/other/ots.doc
I strongly suggest that you remove the "Read, Agree, Disagree" from the document. It is extremely unprofessional and condescending. If anyone sent me a document like that I would toss it in the garbage.
If/when you create a legal custody agreement, you should both receive independent legal advice. You each sit down with your lawyers and go over it clause by clause, each initial every page, and sign the last page, as do your lawyers.
Some of your paragraph references are in error. For example paragraph 21 erroneously refers to paragraph 13, I believe that should be paragraph 20.
The section on expenses should request copies of receipts. Original receipts will need to be retained for tax purposes, or in the case of items, to exchange, return, or claim waranty.
In Decision Making you have mixed up paragraphing again. I would not agree to wording like that. In most cases either parent should be able to make day-to-day decisions. Joint decisions should be limited to elective medical treatment, education, and religion. What happens if you two don't agree? You have no course of resolution. You need a clause which states that you will agree to mediation on parenting issues and if there is no resolution you will have the issue arbitrated. Either that or you will end up in court repeatedly. Communication by snail mail is slow, cumbersome, and unnecessary. If you cannot communicate well by phone (and may run into "That's not what I said/agreed to!") then communcate by email only.
"Grave danger" is poor wording. What if the child is in danger but it is not "grave"? What is "grave"? Who decides what is "grave"? Custodial decision making should be limited to education, elective medical, and religion. This is standard. Day-to-day decisions are up to the parent the child is with, and should not need consultation or be interfered with. Emergencies should be dealt with without consultation, but the other parent should be informed as soon as is appropriate.
Identification should have a clause that the child's OHIP card should travel with the child at all times between homes. Other identification should be presented on request to either parent.
Child support, paragraph 31 makes no sense. "Shall be negated" is meaningless. The design of child support you describe is completely unsupported by law and this agreement would never be accepted by the courts as enforcable. That said, you two can have whatever agreement you wish, but it would only be in effect day-to-day for as long she wanted to stick to it. Putting it in this document does not make it a valid contract or protect either party. Further, the requirement for receipts each month for support is ridiculous. This would entail providing receipts for everything from groceries to utilities and separating out the cost of the child from the mother. She will not agree to this, and certainly not if she gets indepenent legal advice.
The section on mediation should be incorporated into the decision making section.
The section on enforcement is ridiculous and will not be enforcable by the courts. Too many clauses in your document, especially around child support, are not supported by law and would not be able to be turned into a court order. The requirement for exchange of letters looks like something you pulled from an unrelated agreement that is 50 years old. This entire section should be struck.
In order to bring an issue to court, it will already be required that you show that you have made an attempt to communicate and settle. If you want a section on conflict resolution, then require that you both agree to attempt mediation first.
The section on ammendments is absurd. You are writing a legal agreement and then adding a clause that it can be changed in any way. I think you mean "cannot".
The space for signatures at the end should be struck. This is not your final custody agreement, it is an offer.
If/when you create a legal custody agreement, you should both receive independent legal advice. You each sit down with your lawyers and go over it clause by clause, each initial every page, and sign the last page, as do your lawyers.
Some of your paragraph references are in error. For example paragraph 21 erroneously refers to paragraph 13, I believe that should be paragraph 20.
The section on expenses should request copies of receipts. Original receipts will need to be retained for tax purposes, or in the case of items, to exchange, return, or claim waranty.
In Decision Making you have mixed up paragraphing again. I would not agree to wording like that. In most cases either parent should be able to make day-to-day decisions. Joint decisions should be limited to elective medical treatment, education, and religion. What happens if you two don't agree? You have no course of resolution. You need a clause which states that you will agree to mediation on parenting issues and if there is no resolution you will have the issue arbitrated. Either that or you will end up in court repeatedly. Communication by snail mail is slow, cumbersome, and unnecessary. If you cannot communicate well by phone (and may run into "That's not what I said/agreed to!") then communcate by email only.
"Grave danger" is poor wording. What if the child is in danger but it is not "grave"? What is "grave"? Who decides what is "grave"? Custodial decision making should be limited to education, elective medical, and religion. This is standard. Day-to-day decisions are up to the parent the child is with, and should not need consultation or be interfered with. Emergencies should be dealt with without consultation, but the other parent should be informed as soon as is appropriate.
Identification should have a clause that the child's OHIP card should travel with the child at all times between homes. Other identification should be presented on request to either parent.
Child support, paragraph 31 makes no sense. "Shall be negated" is meaningless. The design of child support you describe is completely unsupported by law and this agreement would never be accepted by the courts as enforcable. That said, you two can have whatever agreement you wish, but it would only be in effect day-to-day for as long she wanted to stick to it. Putting it in this document does not make it a valid contract or protect either party. Further, the requirement for receipts each month for support is ridiculous. This would entail providing receipts for everything from groceries to utilities and separating out the cost of the child from the mother. She will not agree to this, and certainly not if she gets indepenent legal advice.
The section on mediation should be incorporated into the decision making section.
The section on enforcement is ridiculous and will not be enforcable by the courts. Too many clauses in your document, especially around child support, are not supported by law and would not be able to be turned into a court order. The requirement for exchange of letters looks like something you pulled from an unrelated agreement that is 50 years old. This entire section should be struck.
In order to bring an issue to court, it will already be required that you show that you have made an attempt to communicate and settle. If you want a section on conflict resolution, then require that you both agree to attempt mediation first.
The section on ammendments is absurd. You are writing a legal agreement and then adding a clause that it can be changed in any way. I think you mean "cannot".
The space for signatures at the end should be struck. This is not your final custody agreement, it is an offer.
Tayken
Well-known member
What Mess said and some additional observations:
- Upon reading your document it reads as possibly egocentric and "controlling" in how you state things. I am not stating that you in fact are egocentric but, the document portrays you in that light. Be very careful with the wording as the document has to meet and exceed the expectations of the Children's Law Reform Act Rule 24 (Best Interests) and all the applicable Acts and Rules.
- It is *good* that you are going to make an offer to settle in accordance with Rule 18 of the Family Law Rules. But, always remember that any agreement involving children will be highly scrutinized and the fact that you could possibly get a signature on this doesn't mean that it cannot be challenged before the court.
To better assist you with your efforts, which are in the right direction here are some parenting plans that would be possibly a great benefit you in fixing your offer to settle:
Critical Issues for Consideration when Developing Practical Parenting Plans
For Families in Conflict: A Working Guide
http://www.albertacourts.ab.ca/familylaw/parentingplanissues.pdf
Parenting Plan Worksheet
http://www.yoursocialworker.com/s-articles/Parenting_plan.pdf
From these two documents you can create a proper parenting plan for the child in question for which you can get agreement on possibly. How you would do that is to make an offer to settle, in accordance with Rule 18 of the Family Law Rules and attach the parenting plan as Schedule "A". They would agree to the parenting plan and sign it with independent legal advice.
In a parenting plan you wand to cover all the elements of custody and access of the child in question and child support.
The two above links are in my personal opinion the best information out there on the matter in the public domain.
Good Luck!
Tayken
"I strongly suggest that you remove the "Read, Agree, Disagree" from the document. It is extremely unprofessional and condesending. If anyone sent me a document like that I would toss it in the garbage."
"Instructions
To hasten resolution I have added sections for the Mother to initial and signify that she has read and understood the intent of the statement or paragraph. I have also added sections where the Mother is able to Agree or Disagree in aims to resolve all or parts of this agreement so further revisions can be more concise and brief."
"If/when you create a legal custody agreement, you should both receive independent legal advice. You each sit down with your lawyers and go over it clause by clause, each initial every page, and sign the last page, as do your lawyers."
Got no lawyer, already called people around here asking for 500$+150$ per hour. Upfront. I dont have that kind of money to put up. Also she can still initial it herself.
"Some of your paragraph references are in error. For example paragraph 21 erroneously refers to paragraph 13, I believe that should be paragraph 20."
Fixed
"The section on expenses should request copies of receipts. Original receipts will need to be retained for tax purposes, or in the case of items, to exchange, return, or claim waranty."
Fixed
"In Decision Making you have mixed up paragraphing again. I would not agree to wording like that. In most cases either parent should be able to make day-to-day decisions. Joint decisions should be limited to elective medical treatment, education, and religion. What happens if you two don't agree? You have no course of resolution. You need a clause which states that you will agree to mediation on parenting issues and if there is no resolution you will have the issue arbitrated. Either that or you will end up in court repeatedly. Communication by snail mail is slow, cumbersome, and unnecessary. If you cannot communicate well by phone (and may run into "That's not what I said/agreed to!") then communcate by email only."
fixed the mix up paragraph, i added some items in there and forgot to change that paragraph to reflect the new numbers ones.
[26] Decision making on all elective areas shall be shared completely by both parents. This includes medical procedures or treatments, education, and any other fields that may affect the well-being of the child. This excludes every day to day decisions.
Good call, ill change it to email. i also added the mediation portion. even though we only live 10 minutes it will sometimes get there the same day if not thevery next day.
"[28] Should any disagreements arise then it shall be in the form of an electronic mail(email) sent to the other parent stating why they do not agree with the decisions. If it continues to be in disagreement then refer to the Mediation section."
changed it to suit a better meaning of emergency....
[29] Paragraphs [25], [26], [27] and [28] shall not apply in the situation where an emergency is present that threatens the life of the child. The custodial parent for that time shall make decisions on behalf of the other parent for the duration of that emergency. The other parent shall be notified as soon as possible.
"Grave danger" is poor wording. What if the child is in danger but it is not "grave"? What is "grave"? Who decides what is "grave"? Custodial decision making should be limited to education, elective medical, and religion. This is standard. Day-to-day decisions are up to the parent the child is with, and should not need consultation or be interfered with. Emergencies should be dealt with without consultation, but the other parent should be informed as soon as is appropriate."
Already addressed.
"Identification should have a clause that the child's OHIP card should travel with the child at all times between homes. Other identification should be presented on request to either parent."
Fixed
"[30] Any and all documentation in relation to identification, birth records, birth certificates and any other important document shall be issued as a certified copy to ensure both parents have records on those and to be with the parent while that parent has custody of the child."
"Child support, paragraph 31 makes no sense. "Shall be negated" is meaningless. The design of child support you describe is completely unsupported by law and this agreement would never be accepted by the courts as enforcable. That said, you two can have whatever agreement you wish, but it would only be in effect day-to-day for as long she wanted to stick to it. Putting it in this document does not make it a valid contract or protect either party. Further, the requirement for receipts each month for support is ridiculous. This would entail providing receipts for everything from groceries to utilities and separating out the cost of the child from the mother. She will not agree to this, and certainly not if she gets indepenent legal advice."
"[31] Child support shall not be in effect for as long as paragraph 9 does not apply."
child support will not be in effect when custody is split 50%. and only be in effect with the gradual access and custody.
"[33] Child support shall be 150$ a month due at the first day of that month."
instead of subjecting it to receipts i just put in a fixed amount. i also changed paragraph 32.
"[32] On the first day of the expected full month that this agreement is duly signed a one-time deposit of $1000 CAD for the months that support was not given or ordered, shall be made by either a money order made payable to the Mother, or by deposit of a Joint Bank Account on behalf of the child."
i also removed 34 and 35 and renumbered all the paragraphs below.
"The section on mediation should be incorporated into the decision making section."
"[34] Should a disagreement arise from a decision made by a parent on an elective issue continue to be unresolved after attempts have been made by way of communication, both parents shall be required to attend to a mediation session for additional attempt to resolve any disagreements at the first convenience of both parents and that costs will be shared by both parents. This is to prevent unnecessary litigation and extra costs."
"The section on mediation should be incorporated into the decision making section."
Done i retained the mediation section for details. made a reference as you may have noticed.
"The section on enforcement is ridiculous and will not be enforcable by the courts. Too many clauses in your document, especially around child support, are not supported by law and would not be able to be turned into a court order. The requirement for exchange of letters looks like something you pulled from an unrelated agreement that is 50 years old. This entire section should be struck."
removed.
"In order to bring an issue to court, it will already be required that you show that you have made an attempt to communicate and settle. If you want a section on conflict resolution, then require that you both agree to attempt mediation first."
i changed the mediation to require that parents be involved should a dispute continue to exist after emails. conflict resolution as the involvement of the court?
"The section on ammendments is absurd. You are writing a legal agreement and then adding a clause that it can be changed in any way. I think you mean "cannot"."
"[41] This agreement can only be changed by part or whole the consent of both parents and shall be binding immediately unless specified."
reworded to avoid possible confusion.
"The space for signatures at the end should be struck. This is not your final custody agreement, it is an offer."
yes i knew this would not be the final draft hence why i added the agree/disagree to help narrow the issues immediately if possible so case conference will be more precise.
i also changed the expiration date to allow me time to file my amended brief prior to xmas holidays.
revised copy is here...
www.dosrpg.net/other/ots.doc
"Instructions
To hasten resolution I have added sections for the Mother to initial and signify that she has read and understood the intent of the statement or paragraph. I have also added sections where the Mother is able to Agree or Disagree in aims to resolve all or parts of this agreement so further revisions can be more concise and brief."
"If/when you create a legal custody agreement, you should both receive independent legal advice. You each sit down with your lawyers and go over it clause by clause, each initial every page, and sign the last page, as do your lawyers."
Got no lawyer, already called people around here asking for 500$+150$ per hour. Upfront. I dont have that kind of money to put up. Also she can still initial it herself.
"Some of your paragraph references are in error. For example paragraph 21 erroneously refers to paragraph 13, I believe that should be paragraph 20."
Fixed
"The section on expenses should request copies of receipts. Original receipts will need to be retained for tax purposes, or in the case of items, to exchange, return, or claim waranty."
Fixed
"In Decision Making you have mixed up paragraphing again. I would not agree to wording like that. In most cases either parent should be able to make day-to-day decisions. Joint decisions should be limited to elective medical treatment, education, and religion. What happens if you two don't agree? You have no course of resolution. You need a clause which states that you will agree to mediation on parenting issues and if there is no resolution you will have the issue arbitrated. Either that or you will end up in court repeatedly. Communication by snail mail is slow, cumbersome, and unnecessary. If you cannot communicate well by phone (and may run into "That's not what I said/agreed to!") then communcate by email only."
fixed the mix up paragraph, i added some items in there and forgot to change that paragraph to reflect the new numbers ones.
[26] Decision making on all elective areas shall be shared completely by both parents. This includes medical procedures or treatments, education, and any other fields that may affect the well-being of the child. This excludes every day to day decisions.
Good call, ill change it to email. i also added the mediation portion. even though we only live 10 minutes it will sometimes get there the same day if not thevery next day.
"[28] Should any disagreements arise then it shall be in the form of an electronic mail(email) sent to the other parent stating why they do not agree with the decisions. If it continues to be in disagreement then refer to the Mediation section."
changed it to suit a better meaning of emergency....
[29] Paragraphs [25], [26], [27] and [28] shall not apply in the situation where an emergency is present that threatens the life of the child. The custodial parent for that time shall make decisions on behalf of the other parent for the duration of that emergency. The other parent shall be notified as soon as possible.
"Grave danger" is poor wording. What if the child is in danger but it is not "grave"? What is "grave"? Who decides what is "grave"? Custodial decision making should be limited to education, elective medical, and religion. This is standard. Day-to-day decisions are up to the parent the child is with, and should not need consultation or be interfered with. Emergencies should be dealt with without consultation, but the other parent should be informed as soon as is appropriate."
Already addressed.
"Identification should have a clause that the child's OHIP card should travel with the child at all times between homes. Other identification should be presented on request to either parent."
Fixed
"[30] Any and all documentation in relation to identification, birth records, birth certificates and any other important document shall be issued as a certified copy to ensure both parents have records on those and to be with the parent while that parent has custody of the child."
"Child support, paragraph 31 makes no sense. "Shall be negated" is meaningless. The design of child support you describe is completely unsupported by law and this agreement would never be accepted by the courts as enforcable. That said, you two can have whatever agreement you wish, but it would only be in effect day-to-day for as long she wanted to stick to it. Putting it in this document does not make it a valid contract or protect either party. Further, the requirement for receipts each month for support is ridiculous. This would entail providing receipts for everything from groceries to utilities and separating out the cost of the child from the mother. She will not agree to this, and certainly not if she gets indepenent legal advice."
"[31] Child support shall not be in effect for as long as paragraph 9 does not apply."
child support will not be in effect when custody is split 50%. and only be in effect with the gradual access and custody.
"[33] Child support shall be 150$ a month due at the first day of that month."
instead of subjecting it to receipts i just put in a fixed amount. i also changed paragraph 32.
"[32] On the first day of the expected full month that this agreement is duly signed a one-time deposit of $1000 CAD for the months that support was not given or ordered, shall be made by either a money order made payable to the Mother, or by deposit of a Joint Bank Account on behalf of the child."
i also removed 34 and 35 and renumbered all the paragraphs below.
"The section on mediation should be incorporated into the decision making section."
"[34] Should a disagreement arise from a decision made by a parent on an elective issue continue to be unresolved after attempts have been made by way of communication, both parents shall be required to attend to a mediation session for additional attempt to resolve any disagreements at the first convenience of both parents and that costs will be shared by both parents. This is to prevent unnecessary litigation and extra costs."
"The section on mediation should be incorporated into the decision making section."
Done i retained the mediation section for details. made a reference as you may have noticed.
"The section on enforcement is ridiculous and will not be enforcable by the courts. Too many clauses in your document, especially around child support, are not supported by law and would not be able to be turned into a court order. The requirement for exchange of letters looks like something you pulled from an unrelated agreement that is 50 years old. This entire section should be struck."
removed.
"In order to bring an issue to court, it will already be required that you show that you have made an attempt to communicate and settle. If you want a section on conflict resolution, then require that you both agree to attempt mediation first."
i changed the mediation to require that parents be involved should a dispute continue to exist after emails. conflict resolution as the involvement of the court?
"The section on ammendments is absurd. You are writing a legal agreement and then adding a clause that it can be changed in any way. I think you mean "cannot"."
"[41] This agreement can only be changed by part or whole the consent of both parents and shall be binding immediately unless specified."
reworded to avoid possible confusion.
"The space for signatures at the end should be struck. This is not your final custody agreement, it is an offer."
yes i knew this would not be the final draft hence why i added the agree/disagree to help narrow the issues immediately if possible so case conference will be more precise.
i also changed the expiration date to allow me time to file my amended brief prior to xmas holidays.
revised copy is here...
www.dosrpg.net/other/ots.doc
tayken i reviewing the one from yoursocialworker.com, its a great resource i plan to adapt several elements into it as i feel it would adequately cover all the needed grounds.
if i were to add parental planning as schedule "A" then what is actually the offer to settle itself. just a cover page and the only item is schedule "A"?
if i were to add parental planning as schedule "A" then what is actually the offer to settle itself. just a cover page and the only item is schedule "A"?
Last edited:
The offer to settle should be preceded with the phrase "without prejudice." A further explanation that this document is not intended to imply any legal obligation, but is for the purposes of negotiation. (This is what "without prejudice" means, but it is good for you to explain, which will indicate to any third party that you understood the term.)
You then follow with a very brief summary of the issues. For example, "Please find attached a draft version of a custody agreement and parenting plan for your consideration. It covers decision making, the child's residence, access for both of us, child support and dispute resolution. I am open to your suggestions and look forward to your reply."
You then follow with a very brief summary of the issues. For example, "Please find attached a draft version of a custody agreement and parenting plan for your consideration. It covers decision making, the child's residence, access for both of us, child support and dispute resolution. I am open to your suggestions and look forward to your reply."
standing on the sidelines
New member
I totally agree.
And most of us would love to send our ex's detailed instructions on how to wipe their asses. It doesn't lead to a negotiated settlement though, it puts up walls and leads away from one.
TiredOfTheDrama
New member
I'm honestly surprised so many are helping this person word his documents to not be so offensive. He is coming across as an incredibly toxic individual who will 'win' at any cost regardless what may be in the best interests of this child.
I did give him advice regarding CAS to be truthful and alleviate his fears that it was standard operating procedure. I figured he'd show his true colors and they'd see through him.
He reminds me of my ex - manipulative and smart enough to be able to fake it so those who haven't dealt with him on an ongoing basis fall into place with his agenda.
Did he purposefully invade grandpa's space in a threatening manner who was holding the child which led to the shove? After re-reading this thread there is very little doubt in my mind.
I seriously feel for this child. Hopefully a DNA test will clear up those whole mess.
I did give him advice regarding CAS to be truthful and alleviate his fears that it was standard operating procedure. I figured he'd show his true colors and they'd see through him.
He reminds me of my ex - manipulative and smart enough to be able to fake it so those who haven't dealt with him on an ongoing basis fall into place with his agenda.
Did he purposefully invade grandpa's space in a threatening manner who was holding the child which led to the shove? After re-reading this thread there is very little doubt in my mind.
I seriously feel for this child. Hopefully a DNA test will clear up those whole mess.