Lying on 13.1

[Kkc]

Hi thx to everyone reading my posts or simply putting up with them

The child side is moving and now it’s financial time that was on back burner

And I appreciate the cheaper advice here.

The ex has lied on 2 form 13.1 in the “today” column.

The stuff for nfp whatever…but she doesn’t lists bank accounts that she currently has. Ie the kids would point to different banks they went into.

My question is, any real consequences to this? Or is it only if we find stuff?

She claims to be destitute and owe cra 41k but has received 460k..but where is it??

 

[rockscan]

Just because the kids say it doesn’t make it true. Not to mention you would have to prove she has accounts in these places. If she says no, how do you dispute a no? Do you have proof other than your kids that she may have accounts? Proof she was working?

I also don’t understand why you are fixated on what she owes CRA. If the equalization is in trust and would come to you if owed, there is little concern with that. If she was earning money under the table and you want to know for support calculations then again you would have to argue you have proof she is lying. Otherwise, any money from sources other than income or debts she has are somewhat irrelevant. You are losing focus on the important stuff.

I know you said you are worried about your kids but if she can’t care for them they would come to you. If you are then worried she can’t pay support then what is important? Your kids’ well being or getting support?

 

[pinkHouses]

The question is about lying on form 13.1
It is not about what someone else wants it to be about.

My question is, any real consequences to this? Or is it only if we find stuff?

I really want to know as well given lying seems to be a winning court tactic and not all accounts show up on tax assessments.

Please add on how does one validate the data?

 

[blinkandimgone]

Tax returns are a large source of information when it comes to income and assets. Outside of that, a forensic accountant would be able to validate the info. That being said, unless there is a business involved or high net worth, it's typically not a good use of financial resources in a standard divorce case.

 

[pinkHouses]

Tax returns are a large source of information when it comes to income and assets. Outside of that, a forensic accountant would be able to validate the info. That being said, unless there is a business involved or high net worth, it's typically not a good use of financial resources in a standard divorce case.

Lawyers are often not good use of financial resources. It would be so clean to say we want a financial audit to ensure all financial documents are released for the regular john/jane doe. Maybe that is $1K to $2K?

Only when interest is earned does something show up on a tax return. There are many accounts that do not have interest and so would not show up on a tax return. I have a couple that have zero interest. When I first filed out the 13.1 one of those accounts had $60K in them. So is this in credit bureau checks?

My ex has no issue with perjury so why not tell a lie if they bank 50K from it. I know they hid money because they lied about it during the marriage.

Is there any real consequence to lying on the 13.1?

 

[DHTO]

Is there any real consequence to lying on the 13.1?

If it does go to trial, you can cross examine them about their testimony and whip up the 13.1s and ask them if they are as sure about their testimony as they were when they swore their 13.1 statements.

"Mr. XXX, where is your Scotiabank account ending in 1234 on your 13.1 statement dated Dec 1, 2020? I see here you that you swore to the accuracy of this statement - were you mistaken there? You swore to tell the truth now in this courtroom - are you mistaken again here?" Then pull out the next 13.1 with the lies on it, rinse and repeat.

 

[rockscan]

If it does go to trial, you can cross examine them about their testimony and whip up the 13.1s and ask them if they are as sure about their testimony as they were when they swore their 13.1 statements.

"Mr. XXX, where is your Scotiabank account ending in 1234 on your 13.1 statement dated Dec 1, 2020? I see here you that you swore to the accuracy of this statement - were you mistaken there? You swore to tell the truth now in this courtroom - are you mistaken again here?" Then pull out the next 13.1 with the lies on it, rinse and repeat.

How do you prove it though? How would someone know if their ex had opened up new or additional bank accounts?

 

[StillPaying]

Not to mention you would have to prove she has accounts in these places. If she says no, how do you dispute a no?

How do you prove it though? How would someone know if their ex had opened up new or additional bank accounts?

Credit report, bank statements, liens against property, etc. Lots of options.

I think you're misguided on how disclosure works. Your financial statement is the baseline - not be all end all. If more info is needed to get the full picture, it will be ordered.

Sworn documents will be used at motion or trial. Probably not the perjury you're hoping for, but will affect credibility.

 

[rockscan]

Credit report, bank statements, liens against property, etc. Lots of options.

I think you're misguided on how disclosure works. Your financial statement is the baseline - not be all end all. If more info is needed to get the full picture, it will be ordered.

Sworn documents will be used at motion or trial. Probably not the perjury you're hoping for, but will affect credibility.

Privacy laws prevent people from gaining certain information. Yes you can do a title search and see if there are liens against a property but that might be all.

Credit checks, mortgages, bank statements all require an order for disclosure if the other party isn’t keen to just hand them over. That order for disclosure requires a motion and judges may not be so quick to have someone disclose private information if the person demanding it can’t provide enough of an argument so show why it is required. If the party not wanting to disclose says they have no other information and their financial statement is full and complete, how do you call them a liar?

 

[StillPaying]

Good luck with the privacy laws when it comes to financial disclosure in family court!

We could go in circles all day. Your thinking that you need proof, or how to dispute a 'no', is misguided. Disclosure is unique for each case, with proportionality to it, but form 13 is the baseline for all cases. If more info is needed for a full financial picture, it is supposed to be provided without the need of an order. More info is usually requested with the original application for sure, but same is true for mtc's.

 

[rockscan]

Good luck with the privacy laws when it comes to financial disclosure in family court!

We could go in circles all day. Your thinking that you need proof, or how to dispute a 'no', is misguided. Disclosure is unique for each case, with proportionality to it, but form 13 is the baseline for all cases. If more info is needed for a full financial picture, it is supposed to be provided without the need of an order. More info is usually requested with the original application for sure, but same is true for mtc's.

We could go in circles because you dispute everything I say. Yes the family law rules say full and frank disclosure but that isn’t always the case. And yes you provide a form 13 which is used with income tax returns or paystubs. The problem is that some litigants think their ex is hiding money or lying when they are not. A quick scan of canlii shows cases where judges say to go to a motion for disclosure to argue for more than a financial statement. Then there are cases where people argue they should have gotten more disclosure and the judge answers it wasn’t needed. It seems to be a crapshoot but my original statement still stands. If someone believes their ex is lying, they obviously have to make that claim and back it up. If a litigant thinks their ex is hiding money, how do they argue that to get disclosure.

 

[StillPaying]

Each case is unique which makes for different disclosure needs.

Obviously there are some who request unreasonable items, which can be ignored - but if you're taking an all or nothing approach, I'd side with the disclosure being ordered. Again, especially for original applications where a true picture is more needed.

https://www.canlii.org/en/commentary/doc/2019CanLIIDocs3930#!fragment/zoupio-_Toc3Page5/BQCwhgziBcwMYgK4DsDWszIQewE4BUBTADwBdoAvbRABwEtsBaAfX2zgGYAFMAc0ICsASgA0ybKUIQAiokK4AntADkykREJhcCWfKWr1m7SADKeUgCElAJQCiAGVsA1AIIA5AMK2RpMACNoUnYhISA

Have you bounced your ideas off your uncle?! Boss?!

 

[StillPaying]

Disclosure is usually provided on consent before court. If not, the proof-dispute 'no' disclosure you're looking for would be ordered at a conference or 14b motion. If denied, a regular motion could be brought which is more of a crapshoot.

The first time around, my ex was denied my medical records. The second time, she was granted full access to my disability lawyer's file. I thought "privacy laws", but judge still ordered it. It was also the reason the conference judge changed our imputed incomes in my favour and despite ex's pleas.

 

[rockscan]

Disclosure is usually provided on consent before court. If not, the proof-dispute 'no' disclosure you're looking for would be ordered at a conference or 14b motion. If denied, a regular motion could be brought which is more of a crapshoot.

The first time around, my ex was denied my medical records. The second time, she was granted full access to my disability lawyer's file. I thought "privacy laws", but judge still ordered it. It was also the reason the conference judge changed our imputed incomes in my favour and despite ex's pleas.

Which is exactly what I have been saying—you have to bring a motion to get additional disclosure and that would require the person to argue why they needed it.

In your case the judge felt your medical records were required.

In my examples which you hate, the ex requested disclosure at the conference and was told no. She then served a form 20 which was denied. She then filed a motion for disclosure which she lost. Why? Because my husband had provided all “necessary” disclosure. She claimed he worked under the table. Judge said unless she had proof of this, there was no indication it needed to be ordered.

 

[StillPaying]

Form 13 is your key to get in the court door. It's understood that most/all have each others full financial statement. That's the basic disclosure.

If you understand that more disclosure can be ordered at your cc, you understand that sometimes form 13 is not enough. Not all disclosure for all cases. Yes, your case denied it. Yes my case denied it, then ordered it 2nd time around. Disclosure is more than financial statements, and if the other side says 'no' - you have more options than saying "doh well".

 

[rockscan]

Disclosure is more than financial statements, and if the other side says 'no' - you have more options than saying "doh well".

Hence my comment previously that they could file a motion. Or for those having disclosure requested that is not necessary in light of form 13, saying no.

And why I asked the question, how do you prove your request is valid if you don’t have proof? For example “the kids say they’ve gone into these banks with their mom”. Is that enough proof to file a motion for disclosure.

 

[StillPaying]

And just to bring this full circle, your understanding of disclosure is off to say the least. You asking 5 times doesn't help. Your premise is off; you don't need proof in order to get disclosure of the proof. Most of this is basic disclosure which a conference judge would order, no motion needed.

I've done my best to explain it. I provided a link. Tayken and OL have both chimed in, yet your question remains. I wish you peace on your journey.

 

[Kkc]

hi

so i think there are certain forms that can go to banks with the question does so an so have an account, they must answer yes or no. I have banker friends who have advised.

My mom is a forensics accountant. It is also important to know if there was money stashed away during the marriage or nesting period.

She claims she has 0 income..this is almost an invitation for full access to her bank accounts...

Her lawyer asked for the minimal and I buried him in 600 pages worth of stuff that would cost 1000s to go through only to discover it is clean.

If someone claims poverty but has hidden assets...
If rent payments or car payments suddenly disappear...
If grocery bills suddenly change (meaning someone is living there)...

There's so many things to be uncovered and my mom can do it.

My main question though...if she omits a bank account on a 13.1 and we later discover it..what are the consequences?

 

[blinkandimgone]

And just to bring this full circle, your understanding of disclosure is off to say the least. You asking 5 times doesn't help. Your premise is off; you don't need proof in order to get disclosure of the proof. Most of this is basic disclosure which a conference judge would order, no motion needed.

I've done my best to explain it. I provided a link. Tayken and OL have both chimed in, yet your question remains. I wish you peace on your journey.

I'm gonna disagree here, as you said previously, 13.1 is ro get in the door and ideally all parties DO provide full disclosure, but we know that isn't always the case. And sometimes it is the case and one side insists there is more to disclose, at which point they'd ask a judge to order it, with a sound basis for doing so.

"Because I want it" isn't a sound basis, you'd need to provide information to support your claim that you believe that the other party is not being forthcoming with all of the info.

The question still remains, what's the threshold there, is the kids saying the parent went into different banks enough? And how do you provide enough basis when you don't have specifics like bank account numbers or even partial account numbers? You really can't just walk into a bank and request someone else's info, or run a credit report on someone else without their consent.

And on the flip side, if you're the spouse being asked for more disclosure and there's nothing left to disclose but the other side insists without a sound basis, how do you prove a negative?


As for consequences for lying on a 13.1, there isn't a lot, to be honest. I mean, there is, but you don't often see it applied, much like other transgressions in family court - so many opportunities are given in pursuit of just getting things moved towards a settlement. Not that it doesn't happen ever, just not a lot. One major consequence is that it does get noticed, and erodes your credibility with the court.

 

[StillPaying]

"Because I want it" isn't a sound basis, you'd need to provide information to support your claim that you believe that the other party is not being forthcoming with all of the info.

You'd most likely request more disclosure based on their financial statement. Not out of thin air.

You should provide documents which back up the information that you have listed in your financial statement. Supporting documents include things like:

proof of income from all sources;
recent pay stubs;
copies of your income tax returns (notice of assessment, recent tax returns, notices of reassessment) with all schedules and attachments;
bank statements;
credit card statements;
mortgage documents;
line of credit statements;
money owed to you;
business interests;
property assessment notices;
Copies of all bank, RRSP, and investment accounts.

This is not a complete list of the documents that may be required to understand a party’s financial situation as the documents you need to produce will depend on the particular facts of your family law case.

These are basic requests which shouldn't need court but can be made into a order without ever seeing a judge. Again, not making things up, but getting a full financial picture in order to properly move on with the case.

Think - if this request/reason was true, would it make a difference to the issues.

As for consequences for lying on a 13.1 and erosion of your credibility with the court, if you fail to disclosure, lie, or hide your assets, you risk a judge making an adverse inference against you. This means that the judge may grant your ex spouse more of the family assets, impute a higher income on you, or grant costs or special costs against you.