LF32 "need to see daughter" pt.2

LovingFather32

LovingFather32

New member
Okay, for those of you brand new and you have a few years of free time to read, here's my initial thread: http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f4/i-need-see-my-daughter-17407/index115.html#post174461



Brief recap:
  • Came home from work, ex gone with child. Called police, no help
  • Retained lawyer, "Applied for Access/Custody". Lawyer took a LOT of money and refused to go for EM. I began self-repping.
  • Ex reply littered with false accusations that Ive been disproving one by one (drugs, alcohol, DV).
  • EM: Endorsements: a)early CC ; b)Offers of access before CC.
  • CC: Endorsements: a)Supervised access even though not needed (no time given, etc given), b)Questioning, c)OCL d)Financial stuff. Ex asked for hair follicle. Judge rejected. I got one anyways ..clean.
  • Ex giving 3 hrs/week supervised. Denying any and all else.
  • Ex denying disclosure (Rule 19/Form 20), exchange of parenting plans, review of separation agreement, ourfamilywizard.com, mediation, telephone with D3, Health info on D3, etc.
  • Deciding about motion now. Got yet another free consult today at FLIC and she told me to call OCL tomorrow and request the status of my application. (Are they taking it? How long?, etc). Lawyer said ex's lawyer is waiting for motion so that he can get costs by saying waiting for OCL. She told me to have the OCL status attached to an affidavit and bring a motion saying "I've made an effort with OCL to see if we've been accepted by them and how long it would take.
  • I received another e-mail today from ex's lawyer. Apparently I've solved the drug/alcohol false allegations, because today I got this:
Dear Mr._____,

I have still not received the results of the hair follicle drug and alcohol test you claim to have performed, nor have you presented any evidence that you do not have the anger management issues which have caused you to shout obscenities at Ms. ______.

Ms. _____ proposes that your access to _____ be on Thursdays from 2-3 p.m. as supervised by _____. If you would prefer a different time on Thursday, please let me know.

Yours sincerely,

I replied:

Thank you for your e-mail. This is to confirm Thursday's visit with ______ 12-3, supervised by ______.
I anticipate your affidavit of documents by tomorrow as this is the deadline pursuant to Rule 19 (requested on June 11th).

Thank you,

Clean police record (including DUI's, assaults, etc), no restraining order, no charges, clean drug tests, no domestic visits by police ever. Ive only seen my child a handful of hours in 5 months. Im preparing my motion on. I have the dates to offer him. First step - get status of OCL to attach to affidavit, offer dates and get this moving.

Note this new e-mail limits me to 1 hour now. Just to ruffle my tail feathers I assume I believe I answered it nicely using all the advice of this great forum. Kept it short, ignored the "sparring session he wanted".

Here comes the new chapter
I request any help, advice, anything to help me reach my goal of 50/50.
 
LovingFather32 said:
Okay, for those of you brand new and you have a few years of free time to read, here's my initial thread: http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f4/i-need-see-my-daughter-17407/index115.html#post174461



Brief recap:
  • Came home from work, ex gone with child. Called police, no help
  • Retained lawyer, "Applied for Access/Custody". Lawyer took a LOT of money and refused to go for EM. I began self-repping.
  • Ex reply littered with false accusations that Ive been disproving one by one (drugs, alcohol, DV).
  • EM: Endorsements: a)early CC ; b)Offers of access before CC.
  • CC: Endorsements: a)Supervised access even though not needed (no time given, etc given), b)Questioning, c)OCL d)Financial stuff. Ex asked for hair follicle. Judge rejected. I got one anyways ..clean.
  • Ex giving 3 hrs/week supervised. Denying any and all else.
  • Ex denying disclosure (Rule 19/Form 20), exchange of parenting plans, review of separation agreement, ourfamilywizard.com, mediation, telephone with D3, Health info on D3, etc.
  • Deciding about motion now. Got yet another free consult today at FLIC and she told me to call OCL tomorrow and request the status of my application. (Are they taking it? How long?, etc). Lawyer said ex's lawyer is waiting for motion so that he can get costs by saying waiting for OCL. She told me to have the OCL status attached to an affidavit and bring a motion saying "I've made an effort with OCL to see if we've been accepted by them and how long it would take.
  • I received another e-mail today from ex's lawyer. Apparently I've solved the drug/alcohol false allegations, because today I got this:
Dear Mr._____,

I have still not received the results of the hair follicle drug and alcohol test you claim to have performed, nor have you presented any evidence that you do not have the anger management issues which have caused you to shout obscenities at Ms. ______.

Ms. _____ proposes that your access to _____ be on Thursdays from 2-3 p.m. as supervised by _____. If you would prefer a different time on Thursday, please let me know.

Yours sincerely,

I replied:

Thank you for your e-mail. This is to confirm Thursday's visit with ______ 12-3, supervised by ______.
I anticipate your affidavit of documents by tomorrow as this is the deadline pursuant to Rule 19 (requested on June 11th).

Thank you,

Clean police record (including DUI's, assaults, etc), no restraining order, no charges, clean drug tests, no domestic visits by police ever. Ive only seen my child a handful of hours in 5 months. Im preparing my motion on. I have the dates to offer him. First step - get status of OCL to attach to affidavit, offer dates and get this moving.

Note this new e-mail limits me to 1 hour now. Just to ruffle my tail feathers I assume I believe I answered it nicely using all the advice of this great forum. Kept it short, ignored the "sparring session he wanted".

Here comes the new chapter
I request any help, advice, anything to help me reach my goal of 50/50.
Click to expand...

Oh boy a new accusation...

And you have yet to see any evidence that you shouted obscenities at Ms. ____ nor any evidence that you have an anger management issue.
 
FB_ said:
Oh boy a new accusation...

And you have yet to see any evidence that you shouted obscenities at Ms. ____ nor any evidence that you have an anger management issue.
Click to expand...

She had this name calling, shouting mean things in her "reply" too. Even that I said some stuff in front of D3. He knows she lied about drugs/alcohol now so he's going down list I think in search of a long, defensive response. And down to 1 hour visits? He's just incredible.
 
LovingFather32 said:
She had this name calling, shouting mean things in her "reply" too. Even that I said some stuff in front of D3. He knows she lied about drugs/alcohol now so he's going down list I think in search of a long, defensive response. And down to 1 hour visits? He's just incredible.
Click to expand...

They are going to give you nothing more until a motion.

Married couples yell. Divorcing couples yell. I'm sure she remained quiet the whole time and said nothing right.

I don't see that argument as being relevant. Has nothing to do with D3. She's clearly not scared of you.

I'm not sure that the lawyer could get a motion dismissed based on waiting for the OCL. He probably will try.

Lets wait and sew what "evidence" he has against you tomorrow if you receive it. :rolleyes:
 
Funny thing about today. I asked about all his refusals for disclosure to the lawyer during the consult and FLIC. They tossed me a FORM 20. I said that he already refused that one. FLIC girl said .. we actually have a room of lawyers in the room now, hold on, ill go make sure. Yep .. he refused a FORM 20.

Lawyer told me to make Motion VERY reasonable and perhaps just get rid of supervised and few times/week. I explained my fears of interim usually turning permanent. She said anything's better than what you have now and they're being increasingly difficult but that 50/50 probably wouldn't happen.

Regarding the yelling/arguing FB .. totally agree with what you said.

Evidence tomorrow? lol He laughed through a FORM 20 .. he'll laugh through this.
 
LovingFather32 said:
Funny thing about today. I asked about all his refusals for disclosure to the lawyer during the consult and FLIC. They tossed me a FORM 20. I said that he already refused that one. FLIC girl said .. we actually have a room of lawyers in the room now, hold on, ill go make sure. Yep .. he refused a FORM 20.

Lawyer told me to make Motion VERY reasonable and perhaps just get rid of supervised and few times/week. I explained my fears of interim usually turning permanent. She said anything's better than what you have now and they're being increasingly difficult but that 50/50 probably wouldn't happen.

Regarding the yelling/arguing FB .. totally agree with what you said.

Evidence tomorrow? lol He laughed through a FORM 20 .. he'll laugh through this.
Click to expand...

What does this mean.

Can he refuse a form 20?
 
FB_ said:
What does this mean.

Can he refuse a form 20?
Click to expand...
Sent an e-mail after receiving it preaching about how its for children's aid/child protection stuff. I replied saying it was courtesy to get his disclosure without need for a motion. He replied - Its not courteous at all. There's legal consequences. You shouldn't have claimed courtesy. You should have just said you make a mistake with forms. I replied "I am self-representing and may make mistakes along the way. Im just attempting to obtain disclosure without the need of a motion.
Later, after I found it WAS in fact the correct form, I let him know that he was incorrect.
He still didn't respond to it, produced no disclosure. Its in CR. Shouldn't there be legal consequences for this? Not following rules?
 
FB_ said:
What does this mean.

Can he refuse a form 20?
Click to expand...

Anyone can refuse form 20. Its just a form asking for information. But they have to state that they refuse it and if they don't state that in a timely fashion ( whatever amount of days you put on the form) then you can file a motion to get a judge involved.

I can only assume that they should probably have a good reason to refuse to disclose unless the law permits them not too or the request is unreasonable. And at the motion the judge will let you know what is reasonable and is not ;)

I could be wrong so don't quote me on it.
 
LovingFather32 said:
Sent an e-mail after receiving it preaching about how its for children's aid/child protection stuff. I replied saying it was courtesy to get his disclosure without need for a motion. He replied - Its not courteous at all. There's legal consequences. You shouldn't have claimed courtesy. You should have just said you make a mistake with forms. I replied "I am self-representing and may make mistakes along the way. Im just attempting to obtain disclosure without the need of a motion. Later, after I found it WAS in fact the correct form, I let him know that he was incorrect.
He still didn't respond to it, produced no disclosure. Its in CR. Shouldn't there be legal consequences for this? Not following rules?
Click to expand...

Here is what the law states.

FAILURE TO FOLLOW RULE 19 OR OBEY ORDER

(10) If a party does not follow this rule or obey an order made under this rule, the court may, in addition to any power to make an order under subrule 1 (8) or (8.1),
(a) order the party to give another party an affidavit, let the other party examine a document or supply the other party with a copy free of charge;
(b) order that a document favourable to the party’s case may not be used except with the court’s permission; or
(c) order that the party is not entitled to obtain disclosure under these rules until the party follows the rule or obeys the order. O. Reg. 322/13, s. 11.
Click to expand...

FAILURE TO FOLLOW RULES

(8.1) If a person fails to follow these rules, the court may deal with the failure by making any order described in subrule (8), other than a contempt order under clause (8) (g). O. Reg. 322/13, s. 1.
Click to expand...

FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER

(8) If a person fails to obey an order in a case or a related case, the court may deal with the failure by making any order that it considers necessary for a just determination of the matter, including,
(a) an order for costs;
(b) an order dismissing a claim;
(c) an order striking out any application, answer, notice of motion, motion to change, response to motion to change, financial statement, affidavit, or any other document filed by a party;
(d) an order that all or part of a document that was required to be provided but was not, may not be used in the case;
(e) if the failure to obey was by a party, an order that the party is not entitled to any further order from the court unless the court orders otherwise;
(f) an order postponing the trial or any other step in the case; and
(g) on motion, a contempt order. O. Reg. 322/13, s. 1.
Click to expand...

You would have to file a motion asking for relief/damages I believe. They will most likely just order the disclosure... Although you might get costs.
 
LovingFather32 said:
Sent an e-mail after receiving it preaching about how its for children's aid/child protection stuff. I replied saying it was courtesy to get his disclosure without need for a motion. He replied - Its not courteous at all. There's legal consequences. You shouldn't have claimed courtesy. You should have just said you make a mistake with forms. I replied "I am self-representing and may make mistakes along the way. Im just attempting to obtain disclosure without the need of a motion.
Later, after I found it WAS in fact the correct form, I let him know that he was incorrect.
He still didn't respond to it, produced no disclosure. Its in CR. Shouldn't there be legal consequences for this? Not following rules?
Click to expand...

Go easy on communication with this person. You may be feeding him into other bs that he can try and use against you. Keep communication simple. Yes and No are answer too . just saying.

The fact that he called you out on it and you admitted of not knowing shows weakness to him. That may play in your favour when (or if) he tries to swindle you into signing something.

Keep your ducks in a row, and don't freely communicate with this douche. He is just playing you.

Also, do not expect much from Duty Counsel. They all know each other and they all know their jobs are shit.
 
FB_ said:
Here is what the law states.







You would have to file a motion asking for relief/damages I believe. They will most likely just order the disclosure... Although you might get costs.
Click to expand...


Exactly. Hopefully they wont break your balls and wait till the last day to pony up the docs.

On a side note, Is it possible that "A" Lawyer can disclose minimal documents and later claim more documents came up after the disclosure?
 
FB:
I don't see that argument as being relevant. Has nothing to do with D3. She's clearly not scared of you.

Not only is D3 not afraid (as if .. doesn't want to leave), Ex isn't either, inviting me to exchange spots, hugging my mom. Its a vicious game of custody/access and shes in charge.
 
LovingFather32 said:
FB:
I don't see that argument as being relevant. Has nothing to do with D3. She's clearly not scared of you.

Not only is D3 not afraid (as if .. doesn't want to leave), Ex isn't either, inviting me to exchange spots, hugging my mom. Its a vicious game of custody/access and shes in charge.
Click to expand...

I agree.

So sad that kids are treated as possessions and something to win, when really there are no winners.
 
Everyone claims that the courts are there to determine the childs best interests.

I'm not sure how any of this is in the kids best interest.

There has to be a way to expedite this kind of BS.
 
LovingFather32 said:
FB:
I don't see that argument as being relevant. Has nothing to do with D3. She's clearly not scared of you.

Not only is D3 not afraid (as if .. doesn't want to leave), Ex isn't either, inviting me to exchange spots, hugging my mom. Its a vicious game of custody/access and shes in charge.
Click to expand...

Keep your head up.

Remember she is not your friend. Don't allow any of your family or friends to enable her behaviour. My ex tries that and gets put in her place quick by them. Not appropriate.

Tell your mom, next time she wants to say hi and hug you ask her why she is doing what she is doing to her son.? I will bet she wont want to hug your mom anymore. lol
 
New digs...I like the it.

I see the Lawyer has finally widened his allegations. Hard to ride a one horse pony into Court (on drug allegation).

He's did the 1 hour for some purpose, why do that I don't know, LF32 isn't bouncing off the walls anymore. (or as hard)

Of course the 1 hour access lawyer offered , I can't see him adding that ridiculous letter to his Motion Reply, (of course LF32 is going too)

I agree with the free lawyer to make a very reasonable offer for access because Joint is going to be difficult and stapling the query of status of OCL to LF32's brief.

I agree the Rule 19 stuff is due on 26

I agree Form 20 is already overdue and rejected.

I think the CC judge said something about a motion and that Judge got an OCL involved....didn't he say if a clean drug test came through and something else about a motion?

I would also like to add (educate) on court brief writing:

- don't lead a Judge to "your conclusions", it's a big no no and Judges get irritated by it. Sentence words like:

I believe.....you must agree....I think....it's concluded....I feel...my spider senses....e.t.c

Just Facts...dates...times...exhibits

Second SPELL CHECK always

Third don't use big wording treat the brief like your writing a laymen
 
paris said:
Just wondering if you really did that? On purpose?

Good on you :)
Click to expand...

Yes I did. He makes typos all the time. I have no idea if this was a typo or not. All I know is t said 2:00pm - 3:00pm. If she shows up at 1:00pm that'll be upsetting but what can I do until a motion. No hours stipulated in order. Thus, I could keep her all day supervised and be still on the right side of the law. Problem is I wont see her again until I bring ex to court.

Its a dirty game and nobody seems to care about the best interests of D3 but me. That's bothersome!
 
Kudo's for learning "not to validate" his slander by replying to it....ignore it you did the right thing

don't let him build a case on anything by using you.

and that one hour ain't a typo...that letter was for you too "sell yourself out" by writing a angry rebuttal

just smile and say thank-you (that's more annoying than anything)
 
Mr. Toronto:

You know what? My heart skipped a beat for a second then I smiled. I know he wants me to sound defensive and write him a novel. I thought about you guys while writing the response I wrote. Im evolving. A few months ago I would have wrote with more emotion.
Im curious if I may actually be getting his stuff. He wouldn't blatantly acknowledge rule 19,ask me to send mine then not send his right? That's why the "yelling at ex" stuff coming up now? Because Im about to receive doc's on it?

Also, you think the last part of his e-mail was a "lawyer trick"? i.e -

"If you would prefer a different time on Thursday, let me know"

Okay ..since when has he asked me what time I'd like EVER?

Was this a trap so he could tell the judge "Hey, LF32 is saying he wants hours .. I asked if he wanted other hours ... he said 3 your honor".

Or perhaps to make sure he's telling the judge he's willing to work around my work schedule? Or was he just being flexible with their "1 hour"?

Either way... It's weird.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top