Lack of disclosure during mediation

L

lotsofquestions

New member
here it is.... I can't even believe I'm typing this.

The STBX, did not disclose 18900 worth of income during mediation. Hid it, and now with the T4 it has come to light. He has stated, I will only get paid on 2014 income going forward..... I have asked him to pay me what was owed. He has declined.

I made an awful lot of decisions, and accepted CS offset, and SS based on his disclosure, he bargained (mediated) in bad faith, and failed to disclose.

I am contemplating having my lawyer motion to have the agreement declared null and void, and go after him for max CS and spousal. I sat at home and took care of this family, and subjugated my career. He is now a VP.

Enough of this treachery.

What is the feeling or general consensus with regards to having the agreement tossed due non-disclosure. (yes I'm aware how expensive this is, I will be going after costs too)

thanks
 
Hold on and take a deep breath.

He is likely now paying his lawyer a "contingency fee" based on what he can get away with 'not' paying you. This is not unusual.

You have to sit back and get all of your information together so your lawyer, or you (if you are self-represented) can prepare a concise argument.

I don't think you have an agreement 'tossed' for non-compliance. That would let him off the hook. I would recommend you continue on your course and request full financial disclosure with a deadline.

Let him continue to lie to the court.

If you can substantiate your assertion that he has been dishonest then that's a very good thing (as Martha Stewart would say).

In your case, with evidence of dishonesty on the part of your ex, there will be an adjustment of support.

This will take considerable time. Do not expect this to happen overnight. If you have competent legal advice your lawyer will likely make a 'formal offer for settlement' to your ex. This would be an appropriate time for him to consider an offer as he has been caught with his pants down so-to-speak.
 
I sincerely hope you have an experienced lawyer - someone who is accustomed to this level of negotiation. If you didn't ask beforehand you might want to ask your lawyer what experience they have in this particular situation?

You can take your time and consider any legal advice you have been given. You have the right to request an adjournment for a myriad of reasons.

Your ex has stonewalled you for quite some time. I would recommend you take the time to consider all of your options before you proceed as I believe, based on posted, that you definitely have the edge here.
 
You should also seek financial guidance regarding the tax implications regarding this "fresh" information.

PS - look up "fresh" information as well.
 
Yes, I have a great lawyer, so far she has wanted me to mediate, and or talk stuff out, and habitually tells me how expensive this is if I don't. She was also very clear in that yes, the failure to disclose, (lets call it what it is), the lying.... is grounds for whatever the legal term she used.

there are several issues here. During mediation, and the time he stayed and refused to leave (high conflict, little Napoleon, his way is the only way) he made an enormous drama filled show of telling me, he only made 66k, and that I would never see dime one of any bonuses.

His 3 year average income is 122k, Mine is 33k. WE are currently using offset for CS. The SS I was convinced by mediator to accept of 511 a month, because she insisted he didn't make enough money. I held my career in the financial industry in abeyance while, he went up the ladder to VP.

The mediator convinced me not to seek a larger compensatory element to SS. I acquiesced because of his income disclosure. Was not wanting to get blood from a stone.

But Hell hath no fury... and now..... I want max SS, and I 'm going to do whatever I need to.

first, I will breath, and have a martini
 
ok I need glasses. I just re-read your post and thought you said that he did not disclose some 189 k of income instead of 18k?

Okay well then I stand corrected as I don't think that amount of differential in income would greatly impact his financial relationship with his lawyer LOL. Sorry about that.

I don't know about CS but with SS the amount would not amount to much. You have to weigh how much you are willing to spend in legal fees vs. the disparity in income. I stand by what I initially said though - it all comes down to mathematics.

Again, I am sorry to have misread your posts. While you are understandably upset about your ex being a lying bastard, you have to of course weigh your costs in going after him in the court room.

It is always nice to have these documents should your ex try to claim an inability to earn income down the road.

A liar is a liar. Documentation is pure gold.
 
LOL!!! no worries,, yes its 18900 last year he lied about, he has already started lying about his year (his paystub showed 1500 in commission this year he has not disclosed). It isn't about the amount, as 1500 is ridiculous. Not worth my time. But in previous years, he has shown, and he did it last year. He pisses away his bonus on crap, and then looks at me, and our kids and says theres none left.

The mid range for spousal was 1300.... I accepted (again based on disclosure) 500 leaving 800 on the table. That is alot of money to me. I also accepted the reduced ss for only 7 years, because it was a small number, who really cares right? but...... 1300? WE were married for 14 years. I would want that money for 10-14 years. Why wouldn't I? I worked my ass off to take care of him and his family... He got to play big wheel and get to VP.

Sorry if I sound a little bitter.... but really? Why lie? Why not just pay what you're supposed to and get on with life? I never asked for anything else other than equal take home pays.
 
I understand your angst but really I think you have to look at the number of years you were married. I don't doubt for a minute that you worked hard but there are these case laws that come into play. Rule of thumb, as far as I know is that you get .5 for every year you were married. Your age is taken into consideration. Then the judge looks at you and asks if you have done anything since you started to receive the SS to make yourself self-sufficient for those years ahead when the children are older. You have to prove your entitlement to SS. Unless you are married to a very rich dude, and the two of you had an amazing exotic flamboyant life together your year of receiving SS are limited. While 14 yrs is a whole hell of alot of years to be in a marriage I believe it is not considered legally to be "long term." (I know you don't agree with this but this is what the lawyers/judges look at).

You can have a lawyer who blows smoke up your ass and tells you what you want to hear or you can do your own independent research. If your lawyer is promising you long term spousal support then simply ask her upon which case in law is she relying her argument upon.

I think you might be better off negotiating a lump sum payout. You are probably still young and can get back in the work force can you not? Kids aren't infants are they?
 
Also don't forget that SS is 100% tax deductible.

When you get back in the work force the SS, combined with your income will be a pain in the ass. Seriously. If you have a job that pays a miserly 25 - 30 k and you receive SS on top of it you are in another tax bracket. Depending upon which province you live in, you won't qualify for reduced health premiums and so on. If you have a competent lawyer she would point all of this out to you. You may "like" your lawyer but is she really doing a good job for you or merely padding her billable hours?
 
all really good advice... thank you. I will be speaking with her, and I will demand that she show me the case law. I'm not at all interested in giving him any reason to gloat.
 
Always, always insist the lawyer relates to you in terms of "bottom line" (net) income. So when the lawyer says "I think I can get you x amount" you are wise to respond that you will have to consult with your financial advisor before you give the lawyer approval to pursue the matter.

Accountants are considerably less expensive than lawyers. It makes sense to get advice from accountants because, when it comes down to it, divorce is a financial decision.

A pedi-mani is still a very good thing.
 
lotsofquestions said:
here it is.... I can't even believe I'm typing this.

The STBX, did not disclose 18900 worth of income during mediation. Hid it, and now with the T4 it has come to light. He has stated, I will only get paid on 2014 income going forward..... I have asked him to pay me what was owed. He has declined.

I made an awful lot of decisions, and accepted CS offset, and SS based on his disclosure, he bargained (mediated) in bad faith, and failed to disclose.

I am contemplating having my lawyer motion to have the agreement declared null and void, and go after him for max CS and spousal. I sat at home and took care of this family, and subjugated my career. He is now a VP.

Enough of this treachery.

What is the feeling or general consensus with regards to having the agreement tossed due non-disclosure. (yes I'm aware how expensive this is, I will be going after costs too)

thanks
Click to expand...

Arabian offered some great advice, but I just want to add...your CS is not based on what you think. If you "accepted" offset CS, he must have at least 40% access? Is that correct? Just because he lied about income doesn't mean you get full table CS if he still has 40% access, you would still only get off-set, but it would be increased due to his income.

Also, SS is not automatic. You two negotiated a deal. Who knows if you would have even got this good of deal in court. You may not feel it is a good deal, but you seem to work and make over $30K a year, while not a super high salary, you are still over min wage and are making a livable wage, plus you have CS on top of that. Taking you income and CS into account, you may not even be awarded the $500 you are receiving.

Your incomes will never be equal. This is something you have to move on from. You are getting SS in some amount, I assume between your income, CS and SS you are around the $50k mark?

As Arabian pointed out, you really need to weigh your costs vs what you hope to gain. Even if the mid was $1300, those ranges are for different aspects. You have a good paying job, plus will be getting a nice sum in CS, all which is taken into account when dealing with SS.

Just remember, every time you talk or demand something from your lawyer, it is costing YOU money. I think it is safe to assume your lawyer charges at least $300 an hour. So after two hours of your lawyers time, that eats away more than your SS for the month, is that worth it to maybe gain an extra $300-$500 a month? I can understand you are angry and rightfully so, but what you will spend to get a little extra, will outweigh the potential gain. Your sanity and YOUR life need to come before him.
 
Good Ole financial disclosure and the lack of it.

You do need to weigh your costs and the benefit. SS is taxable to you.
Having said that to be lied to makes for a very dirty feeling inside. To prove the lies does not only help you financially but there is an emotional victory.
During my mediation/arbitration my x's lawyer apparently walked into the office of the arbitrator, the guru of Family Law and said "My client is sick and tired of being called a liar and a cheat." In his wisdom the med/arb looked up at her and said, "---- is a liar and a cheat". I do believe my settlement was so in my favour because the x was proven to be a liar.
3 years of fighting for disclosure and eventually HIS accountant admitted that is income was more than double of what he had claimed.
Proceed with caution. Weigh the costs involved.
You MUST be able to prove your claims.
If he is proven a liar or with-held disclosure the courts will consider him acting in bad faith and he will be paying costs.
Just a side note to BF, If it costs her $600 dollars for 2 hours of legal fees to increase her SS $500 a month, yes it is worth it. $500 a month is $6000 gain a year. Why would that be not worth her time and effort????????
 
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Maybe I didn't word it correctly, but I am sure we can all assume it will take more than 2 hours to try and get more SS, it could maybe even take over $6000 to get more SS and then what? She is at a lost.

Being lied to isn't a nice feeling, but spending thousands of dollars to get nothing is return would be rather silly, no?
 
Berner_Faith said:
Maybe I didn't word it correctly, but I am sure we can all assume it will take more than 2 hours to try and get more SS, it could maybe even take over $6000 to get more SS and then what? She is at a lost.

Being lied to isn't a nice feeling, but spending thousands of dollars to get nothing is return would be rather silly, no?
Click to expand...

totally agree.
 
I agree also, you have to weigh the costs---so many are so emotional about their decision without thinking it thru. That being said---I spent 250K for legal and forensic accounting, and the reward was more than 4 times. Each case is an individual and to make a blanket statement is just not reflective of what the results can be.
To react emotionally without cause can run you up an incredible bill without one cent return, then again you can spend 250K and get millions.
 
From what I'm reading here, the ex failed to disclose approx. 19k of income on a 122k salary. In other words, less than 10%. Note that I am not in any way condoning hiding income, but it doesn't seem to me to be worth it to seek all kinds of changes over this amount of money. You might get slightly more in offset CS, but any increases in SS would be a) small and b) iffy as to whether you would be awarded an increase. Weight this against the lawyer's time and money you would be spending. The CS will take care of itself now that you have his T4, so going forward he should be paying the correct amount.

If the amount of underreporting was 190k rather than 19k, or if he was hiding 80% of his income, the effort might be worth it. But for this amount of money, I don't think so.

Add this to the "What an a$$hole!" file and move on. You're really angry at him, and rightly so, but don't let emotions cloud your reasoning. Also, don't let your lawyer talk you into anything that will cost you more money and tie you up indefinitely.
 
stripes said:
From what I'm reading here, the ex failed to disclose approx. 19k of income on a 122k salary. In other words, less than 10%. Note that I am not in any way condoning hiding income, but it doesn't seem to me to be worth it to seek all kinds of changes over this amount of money. You might get slightly more in offset CS, but any increases in SS would be a) small and b) iffy as to whether you would be awarded an increase. Weight this against the lawyer's time and money you would be spending. The CS will take care of itself now that you have his T4, so going forward he should be paying the correct amount.

If the amount of underreporting was 190k rather than 19k, or if he was hiding 80% of his income, the effort might be worth it. But for this amount of money, I don't think so.

Add this to the "What an a$$hole!" file and move on. You're really angry at him, and rightly so, but don't let emotions cloud your reasoning. Also, don't let your lawyer talk you into anything that will cost you more money and tie you up indefinitely.
Click to expand...

I get all the cost/benefit analysis of filing a motion to correct the hidden income. It may cost more in legal than it's worth ....... but .....

if someone is ordered to disclose, decisions are based on that disclosure. If that disclosure is purposefully erroneous, then why should the CS/SS recipient "pay" for someone else's lie? It's like rewarding bad behavior and lies, and encourages ongoing erroneous disclosure.

It should be a no-brainer costs award in getting it straightened out.
 
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