Is it fair?

R

rainman

New member
I'll keep it simple as the whole story is so complicated that it would take forever to get into all the details. The basics of my inquiry is the following:

Ex waits 8 years post divorce to pursue ss because payer (me) is only now making excellent income and working a regular full-time job along with a part-time job to rebuild my life after signing over 100% of our assets 8 years ago. During our entire marriage of 15 years, I only made a quarter of what I am making now.

Ex wants SS based on BOTH incomes. I feel it is only fair to base it on my regular full time job. My reason for this is that I didn't work two jobs while married to her, so why should she benefit from my hard work now when I am clearly going above and beyond what would be reasonable for me in order to create a better life for myself. Also, if I had known or thought she would eventually pursue SS based on two jobs, I would never have taken the second job as I would be killing myself for nothing other than to support her. My above and beyond efforts to do better for myself would be in vain and wasted, not to do better in life, but to give her a better quality of life on the back of my hard work.

I'm looking for case law to support my position. I can't find anything that even includes the issue of two jobs and SS. What is fair and equitable here?

Also, is ex's claim for SS weaker because she waited for such a long time to pursue it? After our settlement conference a year ago I made an offer to her based on the judges recommendations. Her lawyer waited an entire year to counter. There was literally no contact from her lawyer for a whole year and no acknowledgment of my offer. Than out of the blue a year later she counters with an offer that is so off the scale outside of the SC judges recommendations that it's completely bizarre.

Points to note here are that she is using a free legal aid lawyer. I am paying mine. You get the picture here; she has no incentive to settle fairly and is attempting to bleed me dry and be forced to take one of her outrageous offers that if we did go to trial, would be laughed at by any judge. I can't afford to go to trial and she knows that I will want to avoid the cost and stress of it.

Help would be appreciated. Case law supporting my position would be great. All opinions and comments welcome. Thanks for your help.
 
I'm not at all clear how she is getting Legal Aid. Are you in Ontario?

You won't find case law on many matters that are extreme because no one has been stupid enough to take them to court.

Personally I don't see how she has a snowball's chance. However I'm not a lawyer. As I say, there is little/no case law on this, so there is nothing to research.

My main question is, how has she been supporting herself all these years? This is a very important point. She has been doing fine so what is the justification for SS?

Has she just lost her job/source of income? How is this the fault of the marriage, 8 years later?

If she had sought support 8 years ago would she have gotten it?

In my separation agreement there is firmly worded waiver for spousal support. Did your agreement not have any mention of it? What the heck kind of lawyers did you use?

What arguments is she using in her application to the courts? One of your first steps is to refute her arguments. In order to do that you have to know what they are.

It sounds like her lawyer has not filed an application and is just sending letter after letter. If I were you I would just say no.

I appreciate your effort to keep your story simple, but we need some idea of why she expects entitlement to support in order to consider if her argument holds water.
 
Pretty sure I read around here somewhere that there's a limit of 6 years to go back and get spousal support, though I might be mixing it up with equalization.

But yeah, how has she been supporting herself all these 8 years? She's only coming after you now because she heard you were doing well. You doing well doesn't sound like it has anything to do with the events of your marriage. Pretty sure you are safe.

Just write a nice tactful letter back saying that you do not believe there is any entitlement to SS any longer.

Your arguments:

She did not have any role in your present post-marriage success.
Equalization was heavily in her favour at marriage breakdown.
She has been self-sufficient for years now.
You have already made a fair offer which she rejected.

Any one of those would give you a good chance to succeed. All of them together? She doesn't have much of a chance at all.
 
Rioe said:
Your arguments:

She did not have any role in your present post-marriage success.
Equalization was heavily in her favour at marriage breakdown.
She has been self-sufficient for years now.
You have already made a fair offer which she rejected..
Click to expand...
Although I agree with your points, I don't believe, from a negotiation standpoint, that this is a good time to make these kind of arguments.

When we present arguments we are inviting response and rebuttle.

By providing our arguments we are helping the other party to shape their own arguments.

This can be positive if we are genuinely negotiating and trying to forge a middle ground. In a situation like this it just gives the other side an indication that there is actually a negotiation to be had.

If you, whom I have no connection to or relationship with, say to me, "You must give me your house," I am not under any obligation to debate with you or give you reasons why it is absurd. The most appropriate response is to roll my eyes and walk away.


By making a response with any substance you are giving the demand far too much respect. My response would be:
  1. Ignore it. Do not respond at all. Let weeks, months go by.
  2. Let the other party waste time and money sending letter after letter; there is no claim, they are wasting money on a lawyer.
  3. Unless they file a court application, this is no different than finding a flyer in your mailbox trying to solicit money from you. You don't write a detailed argument back to all of those either.
  4. If they file an application, then they must come up with some arguments of substance with legal justification. This is what shapes your response.
The most frustrating thing you can do to them is to ignore them.
 
Something that jumps out at me is your statement that you just had a settlement conference just one year ago. Therefore, it is doubtful that your ex just "came out of the blue" with her request. It took 8 yrs for the settlement conference?

Sounds like someone dragged this out.

Need and ability to pay is what she will likely focus on. Her need now might be much greater than her need 8 yrs ago.

Delaying for years can, indeed, come back to haunt you.
 
If she has entitlement she has to demonstrate it. If she isn't demonstrating it, she has no claim.
 
Mess said:
Although I agree with your points, I don't believe, from a negotiation standpoint, that this is a good time to make these kind of arguments.

When we present arguments we are inviting response and rebuttle.

By providing our arguments we are helping the other party to shape their own arguments.

This can be positive if we are genuinely negotiating and trying to forge a middle ground. In a situation like this it just gives the other side an indication that there is actually a negotiation to be had.

If you, whom I have no connection to or relationship with, say to me, "You must give me your house," I am not under any obligation to debate with you or give you reasons why it is absurd. The most appropriate response is to roll my eyes and walk away.


By making a response with any substance you are giving the demand far too much respect. My response would be:
  1. Ignore it. Do not respond at all. Let weeks, months go by.
  2. Let the other party waste time and money sending letter after letter; there is no claim, they are wasting money on a lawyer.
  3. Unless they file a court application, this is no different than finding a flyer in your mailbox trying to solicit money from you. You don't write a detailed argument back to all of those either.
  4. If they file an application, then they must come up with some arguments of substance with legal justification. This is what shapes your response.
The most frustrating thing you can do to them is to ignore them.
Click to expand...

This is gold. Some of the best advice I have ever seen on this forum.
 
I agree with point #2 above.

She will only bleed you dry if your lawyer engages when not required; control your lawyer. Make sure you have an agreed upon plan of action with a corresponding time limit.
 
Rioe said:
Pretty sure I read around here somewhere that there's a limit of 6 years to go back and get spousal support, though I might be mixing it up with equalization.

But yeah, how has she been supporting herself all these 8 years? She's only coming after you now because she heard you were doing well. You doing well doesn't sound like it has anything to do with the events of your marriage. Pretty sure you are safe.
Click to expand...

Generally a claim for SS after 3-4 years after the date of separation is thrown out the window. CS arrears have a limit too generally. The 6 years is a window for equalization that was recently established against other laws regarding homes and other property in common.

OrleansLawyer will come and rescue this information shortly and set us all straight.

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
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