Is court worth it over lack of communication?

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winterwolf7

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Worth going to court?

I was married for 6 years, we have 1 son who is 4 now and been separated around 8 months. My ex has 2 university degrees and is certified to be a teacher. She stopped working when our son was born and didn’t want to go back. She has a life-long history of depression and always hated her job. I wanted to make her happy so we agreed to survive on my income alone.

Anyways, 8 months ago my ex called me at work and told me not to come home; she had changed the locks and didn’t want to communicate with me in any way. This didn’t last very long as I called the police and eventually was able to return to the home after a week. Unfortunately she chose not to stay, and left with our son. So I was left with the matrimonial home.

Around then we both lawyered up. Since then I’ve been paying her the median amount of spousal support and table amount of child support. My salary was around 57k when we split. Her indication was that we should sell the house. I had no issue with this. I got the house listed and sold it.

Right after I sold it, she changed her NFP suddenly claiming she had tens of thousands of dollars from her family before we were married. We asked for bank statements to support the money being in her name. We have been waiting 4 months but she hasn’t produced anything. As the money from house is held in trust, it will not be released until this is settled. Obviously her goal was to trick me into selling the house and then take the money hostage until I let her get all of it as "equalization". She comes from a very wealthy family.

What is true is that her family agreed that when she was married and wanted to buy her first home, her family would give us a down payment. What is subject to debate is if this situation constitutes an exclusion of NFP from before the marriage or not. The money was not in her name (ever) and was transferred from a family bank account on the day we purchased the home (after 1 year of marriage). According to family law, the money is then part of the joint matrimonial asset being the house and will be split evenly. She doesn’t seem to understand or accept this.

We sold the house for a good profit, but fighting over the equity in it is eating away whatever benefit I might have had from it. My X is not paying her legal bills; her very wealthy family is paying for everything. Thus she seems to feel she can act however she wants, break whatever agreements she feels like, demand ridiculous things, because she has no clue how much all of her shenanigans are costing me and her family in legal costs.

Anyways what it basically boils down to is this:
-She wants $70k of the $100k from the home. She also wants sole custody and unlimited spousal until she chooses to return to work, if ever. Obviously child support too.
-I have offered her $50k from the home, because she has no bank statements proving she is owed anything more than half. I have also offered 1 year of spousal support and child support. I prefer joint custody due to her lifelong depression.

She refuses to go to work and put our son in daycare, though he is old enough to start school in a few months. She also seems to be trying to delay his entry into school for another year. Our son has a genetic condition called NF1, and he’s been monitored and tested many times but is doing fine and hasn’t been diagnosed with anything resulting from it.
I understand that realistically she may be entitled to 2-3 years of spousal support since it was a 6 year marriage, and perhaps I could accept that, but she doesn’t seem to want to set an end date.

All I want is what is fair: Half of the money from our home, joint legal custody with reasonable access (a short visit every week and every 2nd weekend) perhaps a bit more when he is older if it’s practical… and an end date to spousal support. It seems ridiculous that I should have to go all the way to court for these things.

As we begin our court application I already see how lawyers play their game. My lawyer is already pushing me to ask for full custody and child support from my ex. Not because I want it or because it is in anyone’s best interest, but just to be adversarial to force her to compromise before a judge is asked to rule on it. I can see that this and many other nasty strategies are going to be employed going forward, all because my X refuses to communicate with me.

Just looking at the finances I was inspired by Garry’s post in the chat forum. I have considered the idea of trying to take sole custody. After all, if my ex cannot or will not support herself and our child, and I can, it should be a logical choice that I can provide better care and a better home for him going forward.

The fact is that my X has never grown up or accepted responsibilities for her choices. She wanted to end our marriage over very normal, workable issues, and yet she refuses to accept responsibility of her choice and take on the role of being a single mom. Her whole life her wealthy parents have always bailed her out and solved all her problems with money. She never had to work hard for anything. Then she married me and I continued to support her and bail her out. So she is assuming that this is how life works. She wants all the financial benefits of being married to me without me.

I am concerned that going forward to court will make things even worse, and that no one will get what they want. I had high hopes for mediation, but she refuses to go, in what seems to be typical fashion, she is being difficult, refusing to cooperate in any way, and assuming that is grounds for her to have sole custody.

I’m not liking the idea of rolling the dice to see if I get a judge who will accept that, or see that I’ve done everything I can to continue supporting my X and child and only want what is fair.

Do you think court is worth it?
 
Worth going to court?

I’m not liking the idea of rolling the dice to see if I get a judge who will accept that, or see that I’ve done everything I can to continue supporting my X and child and only want what is fair.

Do you think court is worth it?

I would try all possible and impossible solutions to stay out of Court. Read book Courts from Hell that I have posted here ... It's not big; took me two evening to read... You will get an idea...
 
Do you think I could do worse than losing custody, paying SS indefinitely along with CS and losing 40% of my equity from my house?

It's been 8 months and she has not budged 1 inch on any of these issues. As her rich parents are paying for all her legal bills and helping meet her living expenses and I'm living in someone's basement, driving a borrowed car, sleeping on borrowed furniture, she is just waiting for me to run out of options and give up and give it all to her.

I like to think that I could get at least one of the issues in my favour in court since she isn't negotiating or willing to go to mediation. But I watched the video and read the materials and I understand what you mean.

If there was anything else I could do to survive and have enough money to live somewhere then I would. I'll keep trying to force other options in the mean time... and pray that the case conference will be an eye opener.
 
Do you think I could do worse than losing custody, paying SS indefinitely along with CS and losing 40% of my equity from my house?

Easily... As example you can be charged with assault base on false accusation. You can get all what you said going thru court and on top pay about 30k-50k in legal fees...
 
DO everything possible to stay out of court - it is horrible and they will take a middle of the road approach so that no one is happy - this all after an emotional rollercoaster for 1-2+ years and 10's of thousands of dollars in legal fees. I think you're stance is correct - 50/50 on financials, spousal for 3 years and table child support plus section 7. I think joint custody should work in your situation and if you're fine with access EOW and 1 mid-week I don't think you could do much worse in court. But be flexible on the $$'s to a certain degree to get yourself out of this as quickly and painlessly as possible. Approach financials as a business decision - cost/benefit will show you it's better to settle within reason than go to court.
 
I would love to be flexible on the financials, and meet around halfway on what she thinks she "deserves", instead of giving all that money to lawyers. But she won't negotiate or budge an inch and is taking an all or nothing approach.

I would hope a judge would send us to mediation; the issues are not complicated and I am very willing to be flexible. I am not interested in giving her "everything" because I have to live too. I don't even care about getting what is fair (50%) but I need to have enough leftover to rebuild my life and move on.

I have done the best/worst/average case on the financials. In the best case I could see me getting 35k and her 44k. In the worst case she would get 67k and I would have nothing. If I just give her everything she wants I would get 20k and she would get 67k. This assumes I am paying 10-20k in legal fees to get a ruling, and in the best case I am awarded 60% of costs.

Good point on the trumped up charges thing. My X's friends have already told me that her family will do anything to make me lose the house money and that they didn't care what was fair, right or even legal to do it. I've seen plenty of evidence to indicate this is true.
 
And if she refuses your reasonable offer, then make sure you ask for costs. You need to be firm with your lawyer and prevent him from dicking around or do any back and forth. Get him to push towards trial.
 
Your situation is simple and I would choose court instead of giving her all that money because I would self represent in court to avoid high costs.

Joint custody with her being primary caretaker, 50/50 of ALL assests, CS has been regular, you even offer/agree 3 year SS, I doubt she would get anything better in court.
 
Unfortunately we have already been dicking around and going back and forth for almost 8 months at the cost of around 12k so far. Now I am pushing for court aggressively, though obviously from this post, I am agonized by the decision to do so.

Self representation is a possibility, however she has no such limitations for her legal bills and it would be myself against her snake lawyer and his 25 years of experience, thus I would rather retain counsel.

We made her a one time offer that even included giving her sole custody if she would back off on the house money and split it 50/50. No such luck. I have offered mediation (and am keeping it open as an option permanently) and been insulted in return.

So yes, obviously I will be asking for costs since she hasn't left me any options.
 
I'd push for trial and forget mediation. Sounds like she's already not willing to negotiate so just try to put the pressure on her and get it settled faster by going the court route even faster. She sounds like she's being unreasonable and I would hope in that case you'll be awarded costs. I understand it's crappy when one person isn't willing to settle according to the rules - it means you end up paying a tonne of money in legal fees just to get a fair result - only other option seems to be to give it all away but this certainly isn't fair. Crappy system we've got doesn't allow for these situations of 1 party being unreasonable is detrimental to ALL.

Again, just keep pushing and hopefully she'll see the light. If she has any brain, she will settle before then but not until you give her the nudge.
 
We made her a one time offer that even included giving her sole custody if she would back off on the house money and split it 50/50.

This statement speaks volumes. You are more concerned about the money than anything else. The only way you'll get that is to go to court.
 
This statement speaks volumes. You are more concerned about the money than anything else. The only way you'll get that is to go to court.

That actually depend on how to look on it... I personally would not make such risky offer but considering the fact she did not accept it I would use it in my advantage saying that she is considering about money more than kid ...
 
Such an offer was without prejudice and won't affect any trial decision, it will only go to show whether you made reasonable effort to stay out of court.

Mediation only works if a) both parties are interested in a reasonable settlement and b) there is something worth mediating. If she has no supporting statments then you are just mediating based on her claims which are worthless. If you are short of money then why waste what little you have on mediation and then find that you have to go to court anyway?
 
This statement speaks volumes. You are more concerned about the money than anything else. The only way you'll get that is to go to court.

Mostly it speaks that I'm out of options. My 16 year old borrowed car is currently dead, my X refuses to drive my son 5 minutes to see me. I'm living in 1 room in someone's basement. My son has no bed to sleep in, no place for his toys, no tub to have a bath in.

Damn right money is important to me. My priority is to live under conditions that are suitable for him to come visit with me.

Sorry Paris, maybe you've never tried to live on less than minimum wage for a year and share that life with your kid. Money matters.

Secondly it was my lawyers suggestion to try and trade custody for money because in divorce negotiations those are the only two commodities. Until I hear otherwise, mediation isn't an option with her anyways.

I'll admit I'm surprised at the number of people advocating court, it does make me feel better about my decision.
 
Well, I agree that it doesn't look good on your ex either that she turned down full custody in exchange for money.

Legally the money from the house should be split 50/50. Morally, I think the down payment her family provided belongs to her. That's my own opinion.

Oh, and I raised my kids for a long time on minimum wage. When my ex and I separated (my choice), I had to get a job. At the time we mutually agreed on a low amount of child support. I wanted him to have a decent place to have the kids too. I had an apartment, and money was tight, but I had my kids with me. My ex helped me out extra with Christmas and Birthdays. But my situation was very different from most here.

It's irrelevant that she has emotional/financial support from her family, or that she has a lawyer with more experience. Why shouldn't she?

You said you made 57K when you split 8 months ago. Child support should be about $6,400 per year. Minimum wage is just over 21K a year. So are you paying almost $30K in spousal support? I don't know what the median amount should be.

Do you have a current agreement in place for access and support?

As far as the equity from the house, you're hoping for 50K and she's offered you 30K. That difference of 20K could easily be eaten up by lawyers.
 
My take home salary after I am done with support and taxes/deductions is a bit over $1600 a month. Simple budget allows me 600 per month for rent. Thus I can't even afford most bachelor apartments.

Morally you may have a point, aside from the fact the every other dollar that went into the house was mine. In which case I believe its fair to say we both deserve half.

I applaud you for choosing to get a job. I wish my X would step up and do the same.

We have no agreement except for temporary support so I could reduce my income taxes or I'd be at 1400 a month instead like I was for the first few months.
 
Only a small percentage of court applications actually go to trial. You don't know what your situation will be so your approach should be, make every step as though you are going to trial, cross all your t's and dot all your i's and make sure you always have a reasonable offer on the table.

Keep control of your lawyer and keep control of your file and keep control of your costs. Don't go to court being extra adversarial just because your lawyer pushes you. Go and seek what you believe is best for you and your children.

Use the opportunity of court applications to get full financial disclosure and supporting statements from your ex. Go over it with a magnifying glass YOURSELF, don't pay your lawyer's office to do a half-ass job by someone who knows nothing about your ex. If anything is missing or inaccurate, don't get into an endless back and forth exchange by your lawyer that costs you $100 for every letter sent. Wait for the case conference, point out to the judge the lack of disclosure and get a court order for her to do the proper financial disclosue. This way you use the time in court and get something out of it, and have an order on record that she was submitting inaccurate financials.

If you are considering mediation, wait until the case conference and ask the judge for court ordered mediation. The judge will love that, it gets the case off of their desk.

If you do your research and learn as much as you can, use a lawyer to get you started and get all your forms filed and in order, then consider representing yourself. You know your situation better than a lawyer that spends 10 minutes listening to you and 50 minutes talking at you. But this is according to your comfort level. Self-rep is full time job and equivalent to a full course load at school learning what you have to do. Many do it and you can be successful, just make sure you are organized, organized, organized.

You can avoid trial altogether if you can get your ex to agree to arbitration or mediation-arbitration. But use the court process to get everthing disclosed and on the table. You can make good use of your ex's court reply to know exactly what arguments she has (or thinks she has) and how to contradict them. If you walk into mediation cold, you will get blindsided and have to think on your feet, if you have the court responses in hand you can go over them and get the facts straight to make your arguments.
 
Thanks Mess. I had a similar talk from a coworker who has gone through it all and it definitely changed my approach. You really need to keep your lawyer on a short leash or they tend to go crazy. My legal fees have dropped from 3k per month to below 1k, but it's still much too much to continue for long.

I will scale back on the court application a bit, once I see what my lawyer has in mind, and try to stick to the basics if she has embellished.

Based on my X's personality and her behaviour so far it is much more likely that mediation will fail. She has a history of being stubborn and never compromising, it's one of the reasons why we ended up where we are.

Her lawyer is away on vacation for a few more weeks anyways, delaying everything. It will be interesting to see her approach. She knows the system as well as any lawyer and I doubt she will encourage her client to go to court for no gain... but those lawyers, they love their $$$. :P
 
Short update: My son was just diagnosed as autistic, my X changed to her third lawyer and after another month we had a reply from her new lawyer which was just a restatement of the exact same unreasonable demands as before without budging an inch on any issues, AND asking for her spousal to be increased from the median amount to higher.

Court application has been filed, and first case conference is scheduled for early August. I'm still tormented by this choice literally daily, but it still seems like the best option left.
 
Interesting update. I indicate to my ex that I would be moving soon and that I still had a lot of compromises I wanted to communicate with her but that since she wouldn't attend mediation I was at a loss with how to present them to her. She had been under the impression that since I had filed for court I wasn't going to negotiate anymore. She appealed to me to send her my suggestions directly, without lawyers or mediators. Finally after 11 months just by talking directly (through e-mail) and listening to the other person's reasons for their position we were able to come to a compromise on nearly all issues in just a few e-mails.

We both admitted our frustration with the legal system and how badly our lawyers had failed to help resolve anything.

I put together a draft separation agreement for everyone's review incorporating our discussions.

We seem to be in agreement:

-Joint custody (this was my "golden apple")
-A small reduction in spousal support, and that spousal support will not increase based on changes to my salary post-separation.
-Spousal until the child is in school full time (3 years total, reasonable for a 6 year marriage).
-She gave up her claims for property, arrears, occupation rent.
-I agreed to give her half her house down-payment back in equalization. (her golden apple)

It's just a draft agreement right now, and we still have court in two weeks, but this is still a big step forwards. I'm not happy with everything in the agreement, maybe we can work on a few of the smaller details still, but at least the big items can be settled.
 
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