I am new.... help!!

[baclayton]

Hello all!!
I just stumbled on this site while researching my rights in Family Law. It has been most helpful so far and have learned alot so far!! Thank you to all for your great info!!
A little History...

I was with my husband since I was 17 years old (1996). I was new to the province and we met soon after arriving in Ontario. Before the birth of our first daughter, my parents transferred back to my home province of Ontario leaving me here, pregnant and with virtually no support system aside from my husband. I graduated high school with honors and he was in College when we had baby #1. I stayed home with her, alothough working menial jobs as he was always in complete control of the finances and I was still expected to earn money for "my bills". Anything required for kids, formula, diapers, food etc were MY responsibility as well as a few other bills that we had for the family home. If I needed diapers and asked him to pick them up on his way home (as we had only one car) he would ensure that I was "paying him back" or just refuse and say I could go when he got home. Always with children in toe!!
I was to provide reciepts and got grief for any thing I did buy that he didnt authorize (with MY money) and we had more of a father/daughter relationship than a marriage. We had another daughter before we got married in 2004.
I wanted to go to school but each time I found a way I could, he countered with several reasons I couldnt. I relented and tried my best to earn as much as I could. When I earned more, another bill would be added to the list of "my bills" to ensure I still had nothing. He makes great money and for years travelled as part of his job, leaving me dependant to rely on his graces to provide enough to get through till he was home. If i bneeded groceries, he estimated the cost and gave me exactly that, and i was to budget accordingly. I decided in 2006, after secretly taking courses at night when I was "working" to better my chances of self sufficiency, that I was finished being intimidated and controlled by him. I got a juob as a clerk in a local hospital. I had very few friends left as I was never allowed to go anywhere without a guilt trip, so I was virtually on my own. We agreed to councelling and decided to try for the girls.
After really making an effort to do all they had recommended in councelling and him not changing a bit, things started to steer back into the feelings of helplessness. Second class in my own home. We had our third daughter in 2008.

Now, I must add that the downpayment for the first home bought in 1999, was a gift from my uncle. He used it to payy off HIS bills to better qualify to a motrgage and my bills were left unpaid. My name was NEVER on any property we owned. All were in his name as my credit was used as the reasoning, my credit being damaged by not being able to always pay my bills. My fault for allowing in retrospect.

Finally, in 2009, while he was away on yet another business trip, it clicked. I realized what it was like to not have to go to bed at 11pm when he did. Saw that I was more than capable as well as deserving to be indeoendant. I lost 21lbs that month and slept very little but when he came home, I told him that I could not do this anymore and that I was leaving.

Here is where my lack of "balls" came in.

In the separation agreement, That HE wrote, I agreed to sign off on any interest in the marital home as he stated in no uncertain terms was HIS and he would not leave. I signed off on his pension and RRSPs, as well as agreed that no child support would be paid by either at this time. I left with nothing but an agreement that I would share our girls and we came up with a schedule based on my schedule as I could keep them more during the day and save daycare. I also agreed to pay full daycare for the days that they did attend. This was in July of 2009. I agreed with the girls at the heart of my thinking as we could not get along is I made him pay any money, so I agreed for the relationship between us for the girls to sign. It did say though that the CTB stays in my name as it had always been... he considers this support he is allowing to justify no payment from him.
The following month I en=mailed saying that I wish I could do this all on my own but I need his help in paying half of the already subsidized (by me keeping them most days) daycare cost. The cost at the time was $400/mth. He countered that he pays all the medical insurance through work for the girls (I was still on plan) along with other reasons that were invalid that he needs not pay. Instead played on the guilt end saying that he would lose everything including the house that we agreed was in the girls best interest to remain in at least half the time. I also agreed to keep them in the same school, a rural school in his district as this again was what they were used to and ensured some normalcy in a difficult situation. So i relented... every time I asked for help,always in writing, he would alwasy answer that he cant afford it and that this was my choice... live with it. Always playing on my guilt reminding me that he has the girls half the time and needs to keep his house, 2 cars etc, as it is the price paid for my decision.
I claimed bankruptcy in Sept of 2010. I rent. And yes have moved 3 times since July of 2009. I lived close to him at first, but the landlord moved her sister in 11 mths later so I had to move. The next place was far, like almost 45 mins away from their school/daycare. But I held up my end, driving them to and from school as well as to him as he refused to drive and incur the extra gas $. Three months later the house was on the market and I was forced to move again. Now I am fairly close, about 10 mins but rent is high and costs are not included. I am barely holding on and I decided it was time. I left him because I was tired of being a doormat, and for the last 1.5 years I have continue to allow him to call all the shots and intimidate me into agreeing with what he wants. Enough!!! I need to stand up!!!

So....

On January 21st 2001, I sent him a letter, saying that i am soory but I need to get child support as I can no longer stay above water on my own. Asked for below table amount which after calculations would be $645, I offered $500.00. Also instead of portion of extra expences based on income, I offered $250.00/mth in daycare as I pay $500 on average now not fdactoring summer but I will eat that i guess. I also asked for half of out of pocket for snowsuits/medical/dental costs as well, not the percentage based on income that I believe is the norm. I am willing to keep all custody agreements we had before.. oh yeah I also stated in my offer that the CTB was to remain with me as it has always, as this was always his main threat when i asked for money. The free legal advise I recieved informed me that the support payor is not able to claim this anyway, but without adding fuel to the fire, I said it remains as is as it always has been.

He declined.

Threatening with lawyers and selling his assets to fight me in court, as he knows I have none!!! I offered mediation and informed him we can do this in court even, without lawyers, but he is tire kicking and stalling now. The only thing he suggested was to use Collaborative Lawyers. I researched it and declined as it requires me to sign a contract NOT to go to court and I pay money I dont have to secvure a lawyer that if my ex is dishonest and doesnt disclose fully or decides he is not willing to agree, The lawyer that I have paid for cannot represent me!!! No thanks.

So, basically I am here to learn how and what can happen at both ends of the spectrum. Any advice or info is greatly appreciated.

 

[billm]

You share the kids 50/50.

How did you come up with the CS amount of $645. How do you know what his income is (what is it), what is your income? Did you use the offset method of CS?

All non section 7 expenses (like clothing), should be shared 50/50 if you are using the set off method for CS. Medical is according to income.

I must admit that you have painted quite a picture of domination - but I hope you realize that is your fault, not his. You are responsible for your actions, or lack thereof, including the separation agreement you signed that he wrote. So hopefully you have learned from this and will be true to yourself in the future and not make decisions that you later regret to please others. They were your decisions to make however.

CS should be simple - yearly adjust based on incomes of both of you (or a set number if you think he will continually hide income etc making it a yearly stress). You subtract the difference in CS table amounts (aka the set off method). What he can or can't afford etc, is not your problem, and he should take care of himself and not ask you to help him, you're not his spouse anymore, but you are raising kids together and you should share that cost in proportion to your incomes.

 

[baclayton]

Trust me I know my faults. There is history factored into my decisions, but regardless of my errors, I am attempting to justify it now.
I mis-typed. I am estimating his income at $65000 basing it on no OT and no raise since 2009. This is not the case but it was the closest thing to fact that I had. My income is $32000. According to Ontario child support tables he would owe me $1268/mth and I would owe him $632/mth based on 50/50. The remainder is $636/mth not the $645 I originally posted. Again, how do i calculate percentages to see if we meet the 60/40% min. threshold??

 

[dinkyface]

Did you get any legal advice when you signed HIS separation agreement? If not, you have have a chance to have it overturned. You threw away SO MUCH, and probably it is not too late to fix it - only 1.5 years have passed. It's worth talking about this with a lawyer.

 

[baclayton]

Also, As for section 7 expenses... how are you supposed to get that done fairly?? I buy a snowsuit for my girls and give him a receipt, as I have done, and he challenges it saying that he would not have spent that on a snow suit... Then what?? Clothing, he refuses to give the responsibility to purchase all their clothing to me, if asked to pay half, als=ways nickel and dimeing to get out of it. He wants to be able to get clothes too for them, which is fine except that I am paying half for clothing that doesnt fit or he just gets hand me downs and says, you pay your I got mine. Losing battle. How can that be inforced?? In my offer I put all snowsuits etc to be purchesed by me at REASONABLE COST and 50% due within 30 days w copy of receipt for his records... I am at a standstill with him!!

 

[blinkandimgone]

A snowsuit isn't a section 7 expense. If you were signing the kids up for a winter sport that required special outfits and equipment that would qulaify, you'd also have to get his consent prior to signing them up and vice versa.

Clothing also doesn't go into section 7 expenses, those are daily expenses which are covered under child support. If you are sharing the kids 50-50 then you are responsible for clothing them when they are with you and he is responsible for clothing them when they are with him, thus you are each free to spend what you want on clothes for your place and don't worry about what the other spends.

This whole arrangement sounds rather tedious and ridiculous.

 

[baclayton]

Thanks Dinkyface but really the material things I could care less about. I wanted to get out and not fight, PERIOD! I didnt care who owned title to the house as lonf=g as the kids could remain there at least part of the time as it is routine and stable for them. Also that enabled them to remain in their current school... IMO also in their best interest. I dont care about anything in that agreement that doesnt have to do with our kids. I will chalk the rest up to an expensive learning experience. I did what i could to maintain civility between us. Yes, he came out on top, but all i wanted was out!!!

 

[baclayton]

ok thanks for your opinion but I dont really care to be demeaned for it. I wasnt asking your approval, rather I was and still am asking for how calculations are made to determine the 60/40-50/50 threshold. It may seem to you the arrangement tedious and ridiculous but reall it is routine for them and us. It has been this way since day one and have no desire to change the schedule end of it. I must say though that I joined this site for information purposes to educate me on the processes, not to be talked down to and belittled for my choices. Walk in my shoes before casting judgement. I am trying to rectify the agreement that was made, and yes, agreed to by me. Perfection was never implied here on my part. but nice to have imperfection pointed out.

 

[blinkandimgone]

Over-react much? You sound like a real peach to try and work things out with. There was nothing anywhere in my post that was demeaning.

It IS ridiculous and tedious for each of you to have to approve every dime the other spends on clothing for the children. I can only imagine how much time you spend deciding who pays for each and every sock, and then chasing each other down to get your money back. But hey, if that's your routine and it works for you than have at it! No idea why you bothered to ask advice if it's working so well for you.

 

[dadtotheend]

ok thanks for your opinion but I dont really care to be demeaned for it. I wasnt asking your approval, rather I was and still am asking for how calculations are made to determine the 60/40-50/50 threshold. It may seem to you the arrangement tedious and ridiculous but reall it is routine for them and us. It has been this way since day one and have no desire to change the schedule end of it. I must say though that I joined this site for information purposes to educate me on the processes, not to be talked down to and belittled for my choices. Walk in my shoes before casting judgement. I am trying to rectify the agreement that was made, and yes, agreed to by me. Perfection was never implied here on my part. but nice to have imperfection pointed out.

Translation ------> I didn't hear what I wanted to hear so I am insulted.

 

[baclayton]

I apologize if you took that reply as over reacting. There is no nicle and dimeing as I do and have always paid for ALL their clothing, daycare, out of pocket medical expenses etc. I am saying that anytime I did buy for example snowsuits (X3 keep in mind) and asked for half, which is also in our agreement, it was a lost cause. I am actually extremely easy to deal with. I am only asking for less than table based on 50/50 and half of daycare which is already reduced greatly as I take them most of the time. As of now, I pay all for everything and he takes them 50% overnights. There has been and will be no chasing. Like I said, I dont want to fight, which is why I asked for a set amount per month as to avoid the "nickel and diming".

 

[baclayton]

Translation ------> I didn't hear what I wanted to hear so I am insulted.[/

I am a little taken aback yes. I just think that you are misinterpretting what I am saying in previous posts. I was a little stung by the you made your bed implication in me signing that first agreement and trust me I own everyday that I made that decision. But as stupid as it may seem to you I did it so that we could get along for our kids.... and for that I still stand by that decision. i am trying to get advice and info on how to fix and proceed with the rectification of the child support portion only.... I do appreciate your feedback, good or bad and I apologize if I got defensive.

 

[blinkandimgone]

Also, As for section 7 expenses... how are you supposed to get that done fairly?? I buy a snowsuit for my girls and give him a receipt, as I have done, and he challenges it saying that he would not have spent that on a snow suit... Then what?? Clothing, he refuses to give the responsibility to purchase all their clothing to me, if asked to pay half, als=ways nickel and dimeing to get out of it. He wants to be able to get clothes too for them, which is fine except that I am paying half for clothing that doesnt fit or he just gets hand me downs and says, you pay your I got mine. Losing battle. How can that be inforced?? In my offer I put all snowsuits etc to be purchesed by me at REASONABLE COST and 50% due within 30 days w copy of receipt for his records... I am at a standstill with him!!

Then I don't really understand what this post ^^ means. You want him to grant you permission to buy clothes? (wth?) And you're objecting that he wants to purchase somethings for them too? Neither of you agrees on what type/size/quality of clothes to buy? Neither of you wants to pay the other the money for half the clothes?

I just cannot for the life of me understand why one would put themselves through that. You have a 50-50 split, therefore if you supply things for your place, he supplies for his and neither of you needs to worry about whether or not you approve of the others' purchases.

If you are each supplying your own, neither has to justify any of it to the other and there is no trying to recoup expenses. Go buy your own snowsuits/clothes and let him go buy his!

If you guys can't clothe your children without turning it into a big long drawn out battle that needs to be addressed in mediation or a seperation agreement then what kind of excessive situation will you find yourselves in when you finally find yourself with a real issue to deal with??

 

[baclayton]

I misundertood what extra ordinary expenses were thats all. I thought that they included snow suits and boots as they are over and about clothing. U are right. Each paying for clothes is more than fair. I am unclear how alot of this stuff works as this is my first time in this situation and no idea how or where to even go from here. All i do know is that I need him to help support them. And even if he took my offer of $500 a mth, that is a lot more than i get now so, end result is I will tae what i can get i guess.

 

[blinkandimgone]

Family Law Act - O. Reg. 391/97

Click on the number....7.

 

[billm]

...

I just cannot for the life of me understand why one would put themselves through that. You have a 50-50 split, therefore if you supply things for your place, he supplies for his and neither of you needs to worry about whether or not you approve of the others' purchases.

umm this is bogus. The clothes go with the child back and forth. If one parent always buys the clothes, they will end up at the other house as they should. The BEST solution is to buy whatever you want for clothes etc (yes within reason), and keep the receipts and balance it out now and again. That way the 'shopping' parent does not get ripped off supplying clothes etc that the other parent neglects to purchase. There should be less arguments this way - but people always make a stink when they are the ones giving money to the other to balance things out, when in fact a thanks should be in order!

 

[blinkandimgone]

Perhaps the children should tote their furniture back and forth too? That's ridiculous. If one parent had weekend access or infrequent overnights then for sure the children should pack a bag. But if they are effectively living at both places equally they should have their own things there. Also warsd off any issues if the child gets sick, has an accident, forgets something etc. changes their mind 43 times a day on attire (have you ever met a 12 year old girl?).

It's ridiculous that a child would be so limited simply because his parents can't agree. Buy your own things.

 

[billm]

Perhaps the children should tote their furniture back and forth too? That's ridiculous. If one parent had weekend access or infrequent overnights then for sure the children should pack a bag. But if they are effectively living at both places equally they should have their own things there. Also warsd off any issues if the child gets sick, has an accident, forgets something etc. changes their mind 43 times a day on attire (have you ever met a 12 year old girl?).

It's ridiculous that a child would be so limited simply because his parents can't agree. Buy your own things.

Huh? Specifically with clothes including coats, boots, gloves, etc....is the child supposed to go naked to the other house??? Of course their clothes should flow freely between the two houses. The child 'owns' the clothes, not the house, or the parent. And if one parent buys more or all the clothes, they are providing support for child that is NOT done by the other parent. This is ONLY for the case of equal custody and using the CS offset method. In this case, money for the purpose of child rearing has been equalized between the two households, and therefore each parent should spend the same on clothing. BUT if one parent likes to do more of the shopping (which is probably the case for most situations), then it is unfair to that parent UNLESS the costs for clothing are shared 50/50.

For the case were one parent receives full CS amount, that parent should buy ALL the clothing for the child as the other parent has already paid that expense via CS. But for the case of shared parenting (50/50), all non house hold related expenses (non section 7 things like clothes, school trips, normal sports etc), should be shared equally, and the fairest way to do this is to simply allow each parent to do what they want (yes within reason), and then balance the receipts out on a regular basis.

Your comment about furniture is not relevant because of course that does not flow between houses, but clothing does, and for the purpose of this discussion, I am focusing on clothing.

It is not petty or ridiculous to consider these things in the case of shared custody, and again I say that the most fair arrangement is that each parent can do what they want, and have the other chip in. After all, a parent wont' over spend because there is a financial hit for them too.

Now for me (50/50), my ex always wants me to chip in she spends money on something for the kids, but when I say the same, she will tout all the expenses she has paid for - I think this is a problem, and an intentional attempt to get more support from me. For me I couldn't care less about how my ex spends money on the kids, she has that right, and I will chip in accordingly, as I expect her to chip in when I pay for hockey or buy a coat etc. And to me ALL the arguing goes away if we simply keep receipts and balance things out - which for me is less than 2 receipts a week on average. BUT my ex has 'issues' when it comes to these things and only wants money to flow from me to her. If I spend too much on the kids, and she has to fork some money my way, she views it as me screwing her - which I simply do not understand. As I said before she should reimburse me with a smile and a thanks.

 

[Mess]

My ex regularly sends the kids over in torn, worn out clothes so that I have to throw them out and replace them. In the summer she would send my 6 year old over in his swimsuit so that I'd have to send him back in his pants with swimsuit packed.

 

[representingself]

Thank goodness you got out of that controlling, demeaning relationship while you are still young. Many people get caught in situations like yours and it takes them a lifetime before they realize how toxic it is. You have made some bad decisions and poor judgement calls, but you should chalk it up to inexperience and ignorance of the laws and your rights. There is still time to right the wrongs in your life, and do what is right for yourself and your children.

You are still allowing that man to control you, and it is time for you to stand up for yourself and put an end to this... Enough is enough!!

Your initial post was quite long, so I am going to focus on the parts that are truly relevant, and delete the stuff that is no doubt emotional and difficult for you.... but irrelevant nonetheless.

I was with my husband since I was 17 years old (1996). Had a daughter.
We had another daughter before we got married in 2004.
We had our third daughter in 2008.

Important parts are....
You have three children, now aged 13, 6 and 3.
You were living together for 13 years and married for 7 years.
You acted as primary caregiver for the children.
Your ability to earn income was affected by your status as "Primary Caregiver".

The downpayment for the first home bought in 1999, was a gift from my uncle.
My name was NEVER on any property we owned.

The fact that the downpayment was a "gift" and that your name was not on the property are essentially irrelevant.

One you married, the home became marital property and was deemed the "matrimonial home". As such, both you and your ex are entitled to 50% of the equitable value of the property. The "gift" funds were used to purchase said property, and as such, I believe that same would also be considered a marital asset.

Upon separation, if he wanted to remain in the home, the property should have been evaluated by a proper property appraisal service (not a Realtor), and after expenses were considered... he was obligated to give you 50% of the remaining equity, in cash or other assets.
Or the house should have been sold and split accordingly.

The same goes for any assets or debts that were accumulated during the marriage... they should have been split between the two of you.

Finally, in 2009, I told him that I could not do this anymore and that I was leaving.

In the separation agreement, That HE wrote, I agreed to sign off on any interest in the marital home as he stated in no uncertain terms was HIS and he would not leave. I signed off on his pension and RRSPs, as well as agreed that no child support would be paid by either at this time. I left with nothing but an agreement that I would share our girls and we came up with a schedule based on my schedule as I could keep them more during the day and save daycare.

Ok.... some very bad decisions on your part.

First off.... Child support is the legal right of the child... and is NOT something that you can agree to forfeit.

Did you even speak to a Lawyer before you agreed to this crap?

Clearly in this relationship, your ex had supreme power over financial decision making... and it is obvious to me that you were intimidated and fearful of him. He is a control freak, and you were his pawn.

Did you have independent legal advice before you signed this agreement?
Was it filed with the court and turned into a proper Court Order?

I also agreed to pay full daycare for the days that they did attend. This was in July of 2009.
It did say though that the CTB stays in my name as it had always been... he considers this support he is allowing to justify no payment from him.

Daycare is considered a Section 7 expense under the Child Support Guidelines... and he is legally responsible for share the expense with you, proportionate to both of your respective incomes.

Another bad decision on your part, but is completely fixable.

As far as CTTB, there are Federal Laws regarding who is to receive this benefit, and it is NOT something that can be agreed upon if said agreement is in breach of same laws. If you shre physical custody, then the CTTB must be shared as well.

The following month I emailed saying that I wish I could do this all on my own but I need his help in paying half of the already subsidized (by me keeping them most days) daycare cost. The cost at the time was $400/mth.

He countered that he pays all the medical insurance through work for the girls (I was still on plan) along with other reasons that were invalid that he needs not pay.

You are not clear here.... did he end up paying anything towards the daycare expenses?

The medical argument is ridiculous... any Judge would rule that he would have to keep the kids covered if it was available. If there are insurance premiums to be paid... than they would be considered Section 7 expenses and would be shared accordingly.

every time I asked for help,always in writing, he would alwasy answer that he cant afford it and that this was my choice... live with it.

The reasons behind the decision to divorce are also irrelevant. Who did what to whom, and who decided to end it, have nothing to do with the financial aspect.

I claimed bankruptcy in Sept of 2010. I rent. And yes have moved 3 times since July of 2009. Now I am fairly close, about 10 mins but rent is high and costs are not included. I am barely holding on and I decided it was time.

he kept the house, the money, the pension, the cars, and you rent and filed for bankruptsy. Seems like a clear case of financial hardship.
You have to realize that these decisions are not only harming you, but also your children. How do you plan on supporting them, when they are with you...when you can barely keep your head above water?

On January 21st 2001, I sent him a letter, saying that i am soory but I need to get child support.
Asked for below table amount which after calculations would be $645, I offered $500.00.
Also instead of portion of extra expences based on income, I offered $250.00/mth in daycare as I pay $500 on average now not factoring summer but I will eat that i guess.
I also asked for half of out of pocket for snowsuits/medical/dental costs as well, not the percentage based on income that I believe is the norm.

I also stated in my offer that the CTB was to remain with me as it has always, as this was always his main threat when i asked for money. The free legal advise I recieved informed me that the support payor is not able to claim this anyway, but without adding fuel to the fire, I said it remains as is as it always has been.

He declined.

If you want to keep being his doormat, then by all means, continue with your plan... What you are offering is ridiculous... and unfair to you and the children.

If you are suffering as you say you are, why cut him this "deal". You are entitled to guideline CS (calculated by the offset method)... so ask for THAT.

Split ALL Section 7 expenses, proportionate to both incomes.

File for CTTB according to the law.

Do the research... figure out what is standard in terms of what you
want/need. Then compile a list of questions you have and take them to the Family Law Information Center at your local courthouse. Talk to Duty Counsel... Call the Lawyer Referral service...

THEN.. send him another letter... telling him exactly what you want... give him a clear and concise deadline to reply, (in writing)... and when he refuses.... march your little behind down to the court and file a Motion to Vary your existing order.

What are you waiting for???? Get moving!!!!