HELP!! Legal fees insane!!

[plainNamedDad44]

Hi all,

as some of you recall, I've been at this since 2013. Yep, 5 years. I've been self represented up until late summer as the matter seems to be headed to trial in about 3 weeks.

My lawyer just told me she would be billing me for about 4 hours a day from this point onwards !!! Thats like 1600 per day, 8000 a week, for three weeks puts me at 24,000.00 !!!!

I've already paid her 15,000.00.

STBX is nuts !!! Won't make a reasonable offer to settle. I'm frustrated that this is the kids money that is making the lawyers rich.

STBX is very unsophisticated, her lawyer leading her by the nose. I have appealed to her by email, stating that this is money out of the kids mouths, but to no avail. She is nutz.

I'm also thinking of firing my lawyer, and going it alone for trial, but losing a motion (I've won every one I've brought forward), is less risky than loosing at trial is as far as costs and whats at stake.

Has anyone dumped their lawyer this close to trial. I don't think I have a choice except to proceed.

Any comments welcome.

 

[paco]

Hi all,

as some of you recall, I've been at this since 2013. Yep, 5 years. I've been self represented up until late summer as the matter seems to be headed to trial in about 3 weeks.

My lawyer just told me she would be billing me for about 4 hours a day from this point onwards !!! Thats like 1600 per day, 8000 a week, for three weeks puts me at 24,000.00 !!!!

I've already paid her 15,000.00.

STBX is nuts !!! Won't make a reasonable offer to settle. I'm frustrated that this is the kids money that is making the lawyers rich.

STBX is very unsophisticated, her lawyer leading her by the nose. I have appealed to her by email, stating that this is money out of the kids mouths, but to no avail. She is nutz.

I'm also thinking of firing my lawyer, and going it alone for trial, but losing a motion (I've won every one I've brought forward), is less risky than loosing at trial is as far as costs and whats at stake.

Has anyone dumped their lawyer this close to trial. I don't think I have a choice except to proceed.

Any comments welcome.

well, first, I'm not surprised how easy your ex is manipulated by her lawyer, they are all the same, they all go to the same school of hate, lies, deceit and parental alienation, more or less, secondly, I think your lawyer is probably taking some precautionary measures to make sure you can afford her, thirdly, if you strongly believe that your lawyer is very good and on top of the things then you need to keep her, you'll "recover" your money after you "win" at trial. To be clear, no one wins in family court, ever.

My best advice to you my friend is to avoid the trial but NOT at any costs. Down the road it will be very very hard for you to surmount a final order if there is no material change in circumstances.

Also, these messages where you're begging her to save the children's money are very important down the road at trial. There was actually one case law, I don't remember where, when same messages made a big difference at trial.

Try to have a discussion with your lawyer, maybe she's willing to accept a payment plan on a monthly installments basis, let's say $2000/month until your debt is cleared, if you "win" your trial then she's paid faster. Giving her money upfront it will make her less motivated to "win" your trial, don't make that mistake, negotiate it. She doesn't want to loose you because she knows it's a good case, and I bet she'll give you a deal.

Cheers

 

[CoolGuy41]

help!! Legal fees insane!!

Lol!
................

 

[OrleansLawyer]

My lawyer just told me she would be billing me for about 4 hours a day from this point onwards !!! Thats like 1600 per day, 8000 a week, for three weeks puts me at 24,000.00 !!!!

The rule of thumb is that a lawyer will put in two days of work for each day of trial. Based on that schedule, your lawyer is preparing for a ~4 day trial. How long is your matter set down to last?

I recall from a previous thread that you are micromanaging your lawyer. This could be increasing your costs.

Has anyone dumped their lawyer this close to trial.

Yes, this happens fairly often. However if you do then your ex's lawyer will likely smell blood in the water - any hope of settlement is likely to be gone as well.

STBX is nuts !!! Won't make a reasonable offer to settle.

Does she have the financial assets (or money coming from you) to offset a cost award?

 

[CoolGuy41]

Has anyone dumped their lawyer this close to trial. I don't think I have a choice except to proceed.

Any comments welcome.

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry involved in a high-conflict matrimonial litigation has had this dilemma. Luckily, I can help.

Scenario #1 - win with lawyer:
W1(PND wins) = [What's at stake] + [costs to PND] - [Lawyer fees]

Scenario #2 - lose with lawyer (worst-case scenario):
L2(PND losses) = [What's at stake] + [costs to STBX] + [Lawyer fees]

Scenario #3 - win without lawyer:
W3(PND wins) = [What's at stake] + [costs to PND]

Scenario #4 - lose without lawyer:
L4(PND losses) = [What's at stake] + [costs to STBX]

Consider the probability, Pn of each of the above scenarios.

if((P1xW1-P2xL2) > (P3xW3-P4xL4)) use lawyer; else self-represent;

Notes:
(i) What's at stake is known to you.
(ii) [costs to PND] < less than what you think it is
(iii) There is a substantial chance of a partial win that somewhat complicates the equations.

I am happy to have assisted. If however, you are asking the forum for the values of P1 through P4, then you are asking too much of the forum.

 

[arabian]

I'd keep the lawyer
amortize your legal fee over 3 years.
The swallow it and move on.
sounds like more of a financial issue than family law issue. You can seek assistance from your banker/accountant on debt management.
Look a all tax implications - you might be able to use some of the legal fees as tax deduction over the term of the time of your loan? (don't know your specific financial situation).

All the best

 

[rockscan]

My partner was worried about the cost of his lawyer for this. Then he went to court. He said he would have remortgaged the house to have his lawyer because there was no way he could have done what his lawyer did.

Your ex’s unreasonable behaviour will bite her in the ass. And four hours a day leading up to it is reasonable. Our lawyer said he would need 8 days prep per day of trial and my partners case is simple. Yours is very complicated.

Stop worrying about the cost. You can always set up a payment plan. Plus you can firmly argue for costs.

If youre still not sure, look at cost awards on canlii and see how much court cases cost.

 

[CoolGuy41]

Jokes aside

Jokes aside

Self-representation has already been debated in another thread:
https://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22121

In the above thread, Janus pretty much summed it up:

... fathers who self-rep tend to get destroyed.

I've also noticed that very few of the trial judgements involve self-reps, so if you are asking what most trial litigants do, the answer is they pay the insane lawyer fees.

If youre still not sure, look at cost awards on canlii and see how much court cases cost.

No, you cannot use canlii to find out how much a trial actually costs. With some difficulty, you may be able to find the amount of some some the tariff cost awards. If you don't know what tariff costs are, chances are you don't know enough to self-rep.

Also, these messages where you're begging her to save the children's money are very important down the road at trial.

No, they're not. Don't send her these emails because they just make you look weak. STBX will "smell blood" when she reads your emails. Let your lawyer do her job and serve STBX a settlement offer instead.

I recall from a previous thread that you are micromanaging your lawyer. This could be increasing your costs.

Don't micromanage your lawyer. Don't even email her. Read the documents she sends you but don't do a ton of back-and-forth. For example, if you see a bunch of spelling mistakes; just shrug it off and let it go before the judge like that.

One question to ask yourself before you dump your lawyer is: how acceptable is it to you to lose the trial? If it is absolutely unacceptable, then you have no choice but to keep the lawyer.

If you do decide to self-rep at trial, make sure to keep us posted on how it went. Hopefully you'll have better luck than your avatar did at his trial.

 

[Tayken]

I've also noticed that very few of the trial judgements involve self-reps, so if you are asking what most trial litigants do, the answer is they pay the insane lawyer fees.

http://canlii.ca/t/fpd0d

The problem with trying to provide any statistics is that CanLII is not a complete picture. So, if you go looking for the negative you will find it. If you go looking for the positive you will find it.

We need a truly digital court system where proper analytics can be run from. Who really knows what goes on in the courtrooms? No one really does.

It is safe to assume that the highest conflicted parent often is on the wrong side of a custody and access order.

No, you cannot use canlii to find out how much a trial actually costs. With some difficulty, you may be able to find the amount of some some the tariff cost awards. If you don't know what tariff costs are, chances are you don't know enough to self-rep.

Or you don't live in BC. In Ontario, they don't use them much and generally only on appeals.

No, they're not. Don't send her these emails because they just make you look weak. STBX will "smell blood" when she reads your emails. Let your lawyer do her job and serve STBX a settlement offer instead.

That could be debated. If you are in a jurisdiction with particular judges they will jump on those and use them to your advantage. Often that kind of correspondence is more written for a judge to read than the other parent. If the appeals are properly worded they can be powerful. Generally, self-represented litigants are not that strategic and it is often ghostwritten by a lawyer and their team for strategic purposes.

Don't micromanage your lawyer. Don't even email her. Read the documents she sends you but don't do a ton of back-and-forth. For example, if you see a bunch of spelling mistakes; just shrug it off and let it go before the judge like that.

Excellent advice. The only time you should intervene if a substantial issue is incorrectly stated. The other minor things are not worth bothering with.

NOne question to ask yourself before you dump your lawyer is: how acceptable is it to you to lose the trial? If it is absolutely unacceptable, then you have no choice but to keep the lawyer.

Or you need to compromise on your position and possibly come to a settlement. Compromises need to be made on both sides. If getting out of the cycle is important and you are really not going to "gain" anything sometimes giving up on many things is worth it.

If you do decide to self-rep at trial, make sure to keep us posted on how it went. Hopefully you'll have better luck than your avatar did at his trial.

Most self-reps are defeated by their own emotions. The amount of !!!! in a posting often gives insight into how successful they will be.

 

[youngdad91]

sounds like more of a financial issue than family law issue. You can seek assistance from your banker/accountant on debt management.

LMAO. Seriously? Family law issue = financial issue. Something you should seek assistance on from a lawyer with more reasonable rate? No way in hell your lawyers going to spend 4 hours a day working on your case. What is she doing re solving the Law Of Relativity?

I

 

[CoolGuy41]

LMAO. Seriously? Family law issue = financial issue. Something you should seek assistance on from a lawyer with more reasonable rate? No way in hell your lawyers going to spend 4 hours a day working on your case. What is she doing re solving the Law Of Relativity?

No, she is going though box after box of papers (affidavits, bank statements, financial statements, property transfer documents, emails, etc.); indexing all of them; deciding which ones are important and which ones are not; copying the important ones and putting them in tabbed and color-coded binders; indexing the important subset separately to ensure they get entered in as evidence; preparing her examination questions for you and cross-examination questions for the ex; preparing her opening statement; preparing her closing submissions; researching case law that may be relevant to the case; and possibly making a push for a last-minute settlement.

$24k actually sounds to me like a low price. Either it is a low price or I am being gauged by my lawyer or both. Let's just say there's no inclination on my part to give my current lawyer a nice big kiss.

 

[youngdad91]

No, she is going though box after box of papers (affidavits, bank statements, financial statements, property transfer documents, emails, etc.); indexing all of them; indexing the important subset separately to ensure they get entered in as evidence;

^^ Dear forum members. This is work which rather your lawyer's legal assistant will be doing, at a much lower rate than that of what your lawyer would otherwise be charging you.

deciding which ones are important and which ones are not;preparing her examination questions for you and cross-examination questions for the ex; preparing her opening statement; preparing her closing submissions; researching case law that may be relevant to the case; and possibly making a push for a last-minute settlement.

Dear forum members, ^^ this is what your lawyer will (or is supposed to be anyways) doing for your case. If you actually think your lawyer will spend 4 hours a day for the next 3 weeks doing this, then you're just realizing that you're eating grass like the cows in photo attached above - and pasted below.

$24k actually sounds to me like a low price. Either it is a low price or I am being gauged by my lawyer or both. Let's just say there's no inclination on my part to give my current lawyer a nice big kiss.

$24,000 is a lot of money. Sounds like some other thoughts went into the coming up with this number. It will pay off the lawyer's credit card balance, mortgage and bills for the next 3 months, and about $10,000 to take a nice vacation with her family to the bahamas, and $3000 of left over "feel good" money.

 

[CoolGuy41]

Youngdad,

Allow me reveal something personal about myself: I am lawyered-up to the teeth and have been involved in matrimonial litigation for most of the past 4 years. I am on these forums mostly for entertainment purposes, with a secondary objective of providing some advice to fathers who are being screwed by the system. Only a small minority of people on here even have the potential to offer me any useful insight. You are not in that minority. Be happy that you are not in that minority; you don't want to be in that minority.

The bills facing PND, while I agree that they are insane, are not out of line with what other divorce lawyers charge. OrleansLawyer, if I understand his post correctly, agrees the fee is reasonable if PND is prepping for a 4-day trial. Keep these fees in mind when drafting your settlement offer.

Between your post and my post I received a bill from my lawyer for a bit over $2k for October. No court appearances took place in October, just one letter to OC and same letter to the Court. I sent him 2 emails, in one of which I actually had to school him on a matter of law.

 

[OrleansLawyer]

Dear forum members, ^^ this is what your lawyer will (or is supposed to be anyways) doing for your case. If you actually think your lawyer will spend 4 hours a day for the next 3 weeks doing this, then you're just realizing that you're eating grass like the cows in photo attached above - and pasted below.

If your lawyer isn't putting in that time for a 4 day trial then they are probably showing up unprepared.

$24,000 is a lot of money. Sounds like some other thoughts went into the coming up with this number. It will pay off the lawyer's credit card balance, mortgage and bills for the next 3 months, and about $10,000 to take a nice vacation with her family to the bahamas, and $3000 of left over "feel good" money.

You think a lawyer can pay their clerk, rent, insurance, credit card, and mortgage for three months with $11,000?

 

[youngdad91]

Cool guy, it sounds like I would have revealed the same thing about myself. 3.5 years. Actually , hilariously enough, $24,000 to my first lawyer for 2 years just for showing up to conferences and adjourning, and arguing 2 motions (one won on consent, one won by argument). Her final bill would have actually put me over $32000, but I had her accounts assessed and reduced to $24,000.

Paid around $20,000 to my current lawyer. This includes 1.5 year of litigation.. consisting of a few useful conferences and a few useful and/or strategical adjournments, productive negotiations in person/via phone/via letter, 4 motions (3 won on consent, 1 won by argument), lots of collaborative preparation for OCL, dispute of OCL, involvement with mediation/counsellors, child's various schools, and personal communications. This lawyer does not charge me for emails. But at the same time, I don't have to send him emails - We usually get on the phone or chat in person - those I have paid for. You accomplish a lot more on a 15 minute phone then you would otherwise on an email your lawyer apparently took 15 minutes to read - and 12 minutes to respond - though realistically they only took 2 minutes to read and 35 seconds to respond.

What is even more funny, is my new lawyers hourly rate is $100 per hour higher, yet costs me less to operate, and accomplishes lots more. He's like a Tesla. Last lawyer was like an old Cadilac with a blown headgasket. He's quoted me $13,000 (to be paid up front) if we had to do a 3 day trial.

As per useful insight, I would probably have a ton for you. I have been successful in my case in a shorter duration then you might be. For custody and access anyways. If I get child support offset on consent next court date, then I'll even be bringing over some fresh milk for your cows.

I'm not saying the fees are high ... I was quoted $20,000 for a material change focus hearing by a Toronto lawyer.. I'm just saying this lawyer fees (4 hours every day for the next 3 weeks?) unrealistic and the "hours" they put in are unreasonable. Bet you never heard of the lawyer who billed over 200 hours in 40 hour working week.

 

[youngdad91]

If your lawyer isn't putting in that time for a 4 day trial then they are probably showing up unprepared.

You're all such pals.

you think a lawyer can pay their clerk, rent, insurance, credit card, and mortgage for three months with $11,000?

Nope. You think this one client going to trial is the only source of income the lawyer has?

 

[youngdad91]

in one of which I actually had to school him on a matter of law.

I did however school my last lawyer on a matter of law during a meeting to prepare a settlement offer. She was trying to convince me that the offset child support kicked in at 50% access. I asked her to take a look at section 9 of the C.S.G. in her very own super thick law book in her very own office. The look on her face after she read it was quite funny.

 

[CoolGuy41]

Cool guy, it sounds like I would have revealed the same thing about myself. 3.5 years. Actually , hilariously enough, $24,000 to my first lawyer for 2 years just for showing up to conferences and adjourning, and arguing 2 motions (one won on consent, one won by argument). Her final bill would have actually put me over $32000, but I had her accounts assessed and reduced to $24,000.

OK youngdad, so my insight is that there is some mechanism to have my lawyer's fees reassessed and potentially reduced, at the risk of having my confidential emails outed. Thank you, I did not know that.

I'm all for holding lawyers to account, but the trouble is this:
1) You don't really know how much work your lawyer is actually putting in. To a large extent, you have to trust them.
2) If you catch them overcharging you for something and call them out on it, it's easy for the lawyer to just say OK, I'll refund that one (say, $80) for you, and then he'll turn around and overcharge you (by say, $1k) elsewhere.
3) If you fire and replace your lawyer in an advanced stage, the new lawyer will have to read all the shit from the beginning, bill you for it, and still not soak it in because he won't have the benefit of learning through spaced repetition.

He's quoted me $13,000 (to be paid up front) if we had to do a 3 day trial.

Does this guy work from the back of a van? My advice to you is to ask him to write you a retainer letter that says his fee from today up to the 3rd day of trial is a flat $13k and anything after that billed at $X/hour. If he does, sign it. If he doesn't, you may get sticker shocked.

I went through this. Wanted to ditch my lawyer and verbally negotiated a capped fee with another lawyer, one with great online reviews. 2 days later her assistant emailed me a retainer letter that did not mention the cap. She did not get my business.

 

[arabian]

CoolGuy has a good point (#3). While it is nice to be able to say "you're fired" I can tell you it is much preferable to sit on the sidelines and watch one's lawyer perform in court than actually having to do it yourself. Lawyers have the experience with various judges they appear before in knowing just how far to push things. If you go in you are pretty much up-the-creek-without-a-paddle. I have been both represented by competent counsel and self-represented. I prefer the latter any day. However, my matter has evolved into redundancy (on my ex's part) and self-representation has been so far, quite adequate.

Never forget that family court matters are typically close-to-the heart and it can be very difficult to stay focused. DO NOT expect sympathy from the court. Lengthy, boring presentations will only irritate a judge.

I'd keep a good lawyer, particularly for trial. You are a homeowner and therefore should be able to talk to your banker about a loan. You can bet that your lawyer would not be taking your case to trial if they had any doubt of your creditworthiness?

Good luck with whatever way you decide to pursue.

 

[youngdad91]

OK youngdad, so my insight is that there is some mechanism to have my lawyer's fees reassessed and potentially reduced, at the risk of having my confidential emails outed. Thank you, I did not know that.

I think this particular attitude of yours may cost you in family court. I'm actually quite confident it will.

I've researched the crap out of confidentiality with lawyers. The lawyers are supposed to redact any irrelevant and confidential information in the emails.

I'm all for holding lawyers to account, but the trouble is this:
1) You don't really know how much work your lawyer is actually putting in. To a large extent, you have to trust them.
2) If you catch them overcharging you for something and call them out on it, it's easy for the lawyer to just say OK, I'll refund that one (say, $80) for you, and then he'll turn around and overcharge you (by say, $1k) elsewhere.
3) If you fire and replace your lawyer in an advanced stage, the new lawyer will have to read all the shit from the beginning, bill you for it, and still not soak it in because he won't have the benefit of learning through spaced repetition.

Not really. It was actually not that bad. Took him maybe 3 hours to read the documents and get caught up with everything. Took him maybe 45 minutes to rephrase and prepare my xmas motion, served on ex's lawyer, my ex lost her crap and sent me a nasty message. My lawyer and I had a good laugh and received a letter from her lawyer the next day agreeing to the terms I was seeking. 2 weeks after that, her lawyer canned her. She continued with "her" personal ways and my lawyer figured her out fairly quickly. The findings of the OCL pretty much confirmed everything I had alleged all along. I do agree with you that they won't have first hand experience of everything, but lawyer's are smart. He saw enough from my ex to figure out what was going on. It's really not rocket science.

Does this guy work from the back of a van?

Nope. He's actually got a fairly nice office building he shares with 2 other senior lawyers. I live in a smaller city. I've found the lawyers here cost a lot less than big city lawyers. Also, I've brought quite a lot of business and referrals to this lawyer. He cuts me deals all the time.

My advice to you is to ask him to write you a retainer letter that says his fee from today up to the 3rd day of trial is a flat $13k and anything after that billed at $X/hour. If he does, sign it. If he doesn't, you may get sticker shocked.

I would never ask my lawyer for such a ridiculous letter. I think our attitudes make us somewhat different. I trust my lawyer and his word is good enough for me. I usually pay him a nice tip when he renders my accounts. I really appreciate all of his hard work and efforts, and good results! Would never ask him for such a letter.

I went through this. Wanted to ditch my lawyer and verbally negotiated a capped fee with another lawyer, one with great online reviews. 2 days later her assistant emailed me a retainer letter that did not mention the cap. She did not get my business.

Again, our attitudes make us different. I trust lawyers when I meet them. If I get a bad vibe from them and don't trust them, I wouldn't even bother asking for a retainer. I would just thank them for their time and leave. I also don't go around meeting other lawyers with great "online" reviews while I already have a lawyer.