Grandparents Denied Access

Status
Not open for further replies.
hadenough said:
Thx Tayken. I've never been sent a stamped copy of order by court or lawyer. Just a lot of vague bs in the way of answers. The only thing that worries me, is that if I go to the clerk's counter, they are going to tell me exactly what the Judge's Secretary told me "you have a lawyer/you were represented - call him." Well as far as I'm concerned, I don't have a lawyer. The last email I got from the lawyer said "I expect to have it soon and will forward you a copy of same" (??) Where is it?? Like, where's it coming from, that he's waiting for it - and where the hell has it "been" ALL this time? I pretty much said that in my email the other day, that I don't understand WHY this delay, and that FRO has NOTHING, and I have yet to recv a response. If I go to Courthouse, the girls will probably call my "favorite judge's secretary" and I just fear at this point, I look like a rogue client/wingnut. The secretary has been rude w/me on 2 occasions and I've only called her 3x.
Click to expand...

You have the court file number and know the court it is filed with correct? You can get a service provider to go and get the record for you. They will know what to get and can work with you to get the right materials.

Your lawyer is being lazy as the decision is posted on CanLII.org. Or the lawyer has it lost on their desk like many do.

I posted some links to service providers that self represented litigants can use to get court records in another thread. If you do a search on the board you should be able to find it. The Yellow Pages (canada411.com) should list ones close to the court house too. You can call them and see what they can do for you to get the records. They do it all the time and know the clerks personally generally.

Berner_Faith said:
Also, thx! Great to know that CanLii will change the typos and other errors. It bothers me that even the date is wrong. Seems pretty sloppy to me, but to be honest I haven't searched CanLii and read other orders. I plan to soon.
Click to expand...

I see a lot of miss matches when I find something in CanLII that I want full research material on. When my service provider sends a copy of the court record it is amazing to see how the decisions get entered. I report them and provide the true original copy. Not sure how the decisions get actually put in... I assumed they were OCR'd in but, based on what I find here and there it looks like someone types them in.

Berner_Faith said:
The above convo lol re: emergency motions is totally going over my head so I don't have a comment on that and admittedly, to some degree I've pulled this thread a little off-topic, Sorry.
Click to expand...

Emergency motions are incredibly complex. The rules around them are very tight. Lots of requirements to bring one forward and a lot of risk. That is why I am calling the OP out on it. You don't just waltz into the court and file them. They require a judge to even consider. Generally, they are only considered if children are at risk of serious emotional and/or physical harm. Or when children have been removed from their primary residence.

Suffice to say, this would be the first example before the courts and would have been a posted decision should what the OP claim is true. Furthermore, due to the rare nature of "emergency" motions, they are marked on the dockets and easy to find.

What a lot of people don't realize is that when they use the court to resolve a dispute they are going to a public system. All matters are part of the public record. So, if you claim you did something in the public system and provide simple facts like the date range (before Christmas), jurisdictions (from past correspondence Newmarket or Toronto), key identifiers like "emergency" and "grandparents" it isn't hard to find.

Service provider has confirmed that they are sending representatives to the court house in Toronto and Newmarket to search the "before Christmas" dockets.

Furthermore, the busiest time for the courts is Christmas. People can't get a normal motion or case conference scheduled at that time for motions regarding Christmas access... It is highly unlikely that an emergency motion filed by "grandparents" would be heard unless there was some serious danger to the children involved.

Furthermore, if there was a danger to children, the first thing would be to call CAS... Not file an "emergency" motion. The resulting order for almost all emergency orders is for the CAS to investigate.

So there are a lot of holes in the story of the OP that are easy to fill with facts that any qualified service provider can search.

I should have an answer by end of day tomorrow from the service provider I use. Cost me $240 though. But, if it results in nothing then we all have an answer. If they find the record we have even more answers.

I will let everyone know by close of court what the answer is.

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
As suspected the service providers found nothing filed in Newmarket or Toronto for any emergency application filed in either court for grandparent access.

Bragging about your control of your children. (free)
Coming back to lie about the proceeding and providing no evidence to make yourself feel good about it. (free)
Having service providers search for the records that don't exist (240$).
Finding the truth. (priceless)

For advice on separation, divorce, custody and access there are over paid lawyers for finding the truth there is the OttawaDivorce.com forum.

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
Well done Tayken.. I wonder if the OP will come back and try to defend her children... like I stated before... I think the daughter just decided to leave the bf and the only ones who would help her were her parents who so desperately wanted to see their grandchildren.

The liars are often weeded out, and this is another prime example :)
 
Tayken:

lol....too funny although I'm confused over the motivation to post such a falsehood..its odd.

I can't believe you paid $240 for that. If you feel like wasting any more money, let me know.
 
Pursuinghappiness said:
Tayken:

lol....too funny although I'm confused over the motivation to post such a falsehood..its odd.
Click to expand...

There is an excellent book written by Dr. Lawson titled "Understanding the Borderline Mother".

Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationshi: Amazon.ca: Christine Ann Lawson: Books

Factitious disorder by Internet is a pattern of behavior in which Internet users seek attention by feigning situations in online venues such as chat rooms, message boards, and Internet Relay Chat (IRC).

Reports of users who deceive Internet forum participants by portraying themselves as gravely ill or as victims of violence first appeared in the 1990s due to the relative newness of Internet communications. The pattern was identified in 1998 by psychiatrist Marc Feldman.

The development of factitious disorders in online venues is made easier by the availability of literature on the Internet, the anonymous and malleable nature of online identities, and the existence of communication forums established for the sole purpose of giving support to members facing problems.

The virtual communities that were created to give support often express genuine sympathy and grief for the purported victims. When fabrications are suspected or confirmed, the ensuing discussion can create schisms in online communities, destroying some and altering the trusting nature of individual members in others.

Pursuinghappiness said:
I can't believe you paid $240 for that. If you feel like wasting any more money, let me know.
Click to expand...

I paid the $240 because I believe it was Gary who pointed out that there are some odd patterns of behaviour from posters (and responders) of this community.

Integrity is a key element in providing support, help and information. For the OP to post something as wild as this story without providing cogent and relevant evidence could impact someone in the larger community of readers. Potentially a grandparent who then attempts to do what is boasted to have been done. Spend thousands and thousands in trying to do something that well, never happened.

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
Tayken said:
As suspected the service providers found nothing filed in Newmarket or Toronto for any emergency application filed in either court for grandparent access.

Bragging about your control of your children. (free)
Coming back to lie about the proceeding and providing no evidence to make yourself feel good about it. (free)
Having service providers search for the records that don't exist (240$).
Finding the truth. (priceless)

For advice on separation, divorce, custody and access there are over paid lawyers for finding the truth there is the OttawaDivorce.com forum.

Good Luck!
Tayken
Click to expand...
Thanks for finding out the truth about this poster. The crap people deal with in regards to separation divorce and all it entails is bad enough without people giving false hope. She rubbed me the wrong way and just seemed so controlling of her daughters life.
 
standing on the sidelines said:
Thanks for finding out the truth about this poster. The crap people deal with in regards to separation divorce and all it entails is bad enough without people giving false hope. She rubbed me the wrong way and just seemed so controlling of her daughters life.
Click to expand...

I agree. The OP's story was very disconnected. There was self blame, issues with being too involved with the daughter in question, a lot of projection of blame against the past (and now boyfriend) and the story didn't add up. It read as one of Dr. Lawson's classic architypes to me when the OP started originally telling their story.

The as the personal opinions of the OP started to unfold and challenges were made the story changed and it just didn't add up. On curious posters I keep a mind map in the background of their allegations and story as it unfolds. I find the most interesting posts are from people who are grandparents, other new spouses etc...

It isn't too hard to break apart the story and put it into a boolean setup of truth and weigh the balance on the changes in the story. The OP's story got too complex even for the OP to track it and keep it all straight.

So if you equate the statements about the daughter made, time lines given and other details it isn't hard to see the story fall apart. The egocentric nature of the OP in the original thread and this thread was thick. No one mattered but how the OP felt and what the OP felt was RIGHT.

The OP "didn't know" about childhood issues, abuse, of the daughter. This egocentric view of self and that all the problems the OP's daughter was having was the result of someone else's conduct. In no way did the OP take any responsibility for the problems or challenges the OP's daughter had in life. It was as Mr. Eddy would put it... Someone else's fault. The OP was the best mother that she could be to her now daughter who was in an abusive relationship.

"It's All Your Fault".

The postings were rich with "fear" and no substantiated evidence as to what emotion the fear was attached to. Fears and/or anxieties and/or worries are rooted in something and the OP had a hard time communicating that fear other than a "belief".

Fear drives 99.9% of high-conflict litigation. Parents who are fearful are generally "overanxious" but, if the pattern of behaviour is demonstrated over a life time as provided in the statements made by the OP... It generally demonstrates a pattern of avoidance... Which could stem from an Avoidant Personality Disorder which has a lot of connection to being the child of an overbearning / overanxious parent. Avoidance becomes their defense mechanism.

No doubt that the OP's daughter has piles of poetry, journals and other materials collected over her life which are reflective of the struggle she had with the OP. Trophies of abuse many psychologists/psychiatrists would call them.

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
Just an update: I used the "Contact Us" field on CanLii re: errors (mostly typo of Names) in my Judgment and here is their response:

"As a matter of editorial policy, CanLII does not perform substantial corrections to a posted document without direct instructions from the issuing organization to do so.

Since you send us a description of the required corrections we will ask the court for a corrected decision. You may also want to contact the court yourself to ensure more certainty and expediency.

Thank you for using CanLII."

:)
 
hadenough said:
Just an update: I used the "Contact Us" field on CanLii re: errors (mostly typo of Names) in my Judgment and here is their response:

"As a matter of editorial policy, CanLII does not perform substantial corrections to a posted document without direct instructions from the issuing organization to do so.

Since you send us a description of the required corrections we will ask the court for a corrected decision. You may also want to contact the court yourself to ensure more certainty and expediency.

Thank you for using CanLII."

:)
Click to expand...

Substantial changes. Ick. The date mistake is a substantial issue. You will have to do it through the court house. It is a painful experience. I will do some research on how to get it done with as little pain as possible and if I find anything will post.
 
Reports of users who deceive Internet forum participants by portraying themselves as gravely ill or as victims of violence first appeared in the 1990s due to the relative newness of Internet communications. The pattern was identified in 1998 by psychiatrist Marc Feldman.
Click to expand...

Very, very odd.

When I'm on the internet, I only tell the truth about my life....like how I weigh 105lbs, have large breasts and used to be a gymnast.
 
Pursuinghappiness said:
Very, very odd.

When I'm on the internet, I only tell the truth about my life....like how I weigh 105lbs, have large breasts and used to be a gymnast.
Click to expand...

So long as the image of self you are projecting doesn't harm others it isn't a problem. But, on a board helping people through situations like this... Boasting you have done something in law that is outrageous and doesn't benefit others... then it is a problem.

BTW: I am quite sure your inbox is now filled with messages from desperate single dads. :)
 
lol Tayken. No such luck...this website is too full of a lot of very clever and savvy men and women...which is why I find it such an excellent resource for information. I've actually at times have gotten better information and strategy tips here than I have from my attorney.
 
Pursuinghappiness said:
lol Tayken. No such luck...this website is too full of a lot of very clever and savvy men and women...which is why I find it such an excellent resource for information. I've actually at times have gotten better information and strategy tips here than I have from my attorney.
Click to expand...

It is unfortunate that so many systemic problems exist in Family Law in our country for our most valued assets - children - that sites like this have to exist to counter-act the problems.

I agree, that the information provided at times on this site is much better than what most solicitors provide. The difference being that in 90% of family law matters tactics, stunts, false allegations, and other issues raised on this board are not in the mix. It is just two people moving on with their lives.

There are very few (handful) of solicitors out there who understand the true nature of some negative advocate solicitors and what they will tell a client to do. Or worse, what their clients will do to gain an advantage.

Good Luck
Tayken

PS: There are many dating sites where your profile given would get you more than enough communications. Glad to hear this community of users is not that place. :)
 
Tayken said:
BTW: I am quite sure your inbox is now filled with messages from desperate single dads. :)
Click to expand...

PH's inbox might be full of messages from desperate single moms as well ! ha

Pursuinghappiness said:
....this website is too full of a lot of very clever and savvy men and women...which is why I find it such an excellent resource for information. I've actually at times have gotten better information and strategy tips here than I have from my attorney.
Click to expand...

I can't agree with you more PH. Even personally as to assessing how to handle situations, and getting the opinions of the opposite sex is so beneficial. It has changed my approach a few times, as insight was given that I hadn't considered. It's been very helpful dealing with a high conflict ex.

Tayken said:
...I agree, that the information provided at times on this site is much better than what most solicitors provide. ...
Click to expand...

So VERY TRUE. Tayken-thank you for all of your advice/assistance !
 
Okay Tayken, here goes... Grandparents rights fall under that unfortunate case of Chapman v. Chapman. One has to prove an existing relationship to the child. The law states that any "third party" can apply, not necessarily the grandparents. The children were not in any imminent danger. I had in my application that the b/friend had prior violent tendencies. But our case for the emergency visit was for Christmas since we had spent each one with them since they were born. Age 4 and 2 years. In any event, I had overwhelming documentation, emails, over 600 photos of our involvement with the children. That is the standard that is required by law, the close relationship of grandparent and grandchild. I spent 14 hours a day, with my husband, researching the law, going back over five years of communication. We copied all Skype calls, all telephone calls. The extent of our relationship with the children was documented extensively. As the judge said "we more than adequately proved our case". The first attorney we approached was a fool. Not very interested in helping us, but wanted $600 per hour. I walked out of the appointment halfway though. The attorney we hired is absolutely fantastic worker. He was sening me draft letters via email at 11.00 p.m. and I was working on them and returning my reply at 4.30 a.m. Massive research, loads of documentation especially pictures, hard work and honesty. The judge could tell that we only wanted the best interests of the children. I will post the judgement order, but not yet. As I said our case is not completley finished. We want a letter of agreement sanctioned by the court prior to the case conference. Once all is done I will post information here that will help others. I do not want to jeopidize our case for the sake of the grandchildren.
 
Patty60 said:
Okay Tayken, here goes... Grandparents rights fall under that unfortunate case of Chapman v. Chapman. One has to prove an existing relationship to the child. The law states that any "third party" can apply, not necessarily the grandparents. The children were not in any imminent danger. I had in my application that the b/friend had prior violent tendencies. But our case for the emergency visit was for Christmas since we had spent each one with them since they were born. Age 4 and 2 years. In any event, I had overwhelming documentation, emails, over 600 photos of our involvement with the children. That is the standard that is required by law, the close relationship of grandparent and grandchild. I spent 14 hours a day, with my husband, researching the law, going back over five years of communication. We copied all Skype calls, all telephone calls. The extent of our relationship with the children was documented extensively. As the judge said "we more than adequately proved our case". The first attorney we approached was a fool. Not very interested in helping us, but wanted $600 per hour. I walked out of the appointment halfway though. The attorney we hired is absolutely fantastic worker. He was sening me draft letters via email at 11.00 p.m. and I was working on them and returning my reply at 4.30 a.m. Massive research, loads of documentation especially pictures, hard work and honesty. The judge could tell that we only wanted the best interests of the children. I will post the judgement order, but not yet. As I said our case is not completley finished. We want a letter of agreement sanctioned by the court prior to the case conference. Once all is done I will post information here that will help others. I do not want to jeopidize our case for the sake of the grandchildren.
Click to expand...

Very familiar with Champan v. Chapman and "grandparents rights".

You are submitting from what I can tell is that you have brought forward an Application (Form 8) for access which cannot be located in either jurisdiction as part of the public record on any element of any description you have provided.

Application for access that is opposed by custodial parents is denied unless the parents’ decision is clearly shown to be detrimental to the child.

The leading case in Ontario is Chapman v Chapman 2001 CarswellOnt 537 (C.A.).

Parents are generally entitled to decide who may have access to their children.

Courts have upheld parental decisions to terminate access where the grandparent overstepped the reasonable boundaries of his or her role as a grandparent: Blackburn v. Fortin and Lepage 2006 CanLii (S.C.J.); Diab v Daher 2011 CarswellOnt 1118 (S.C.J.).

Furthermore to quote a very well known justice in the Peel Region on "photographs and emails" - they are irrelevant generally. Photographs and the continual presentment of them at court and in motion materials to demonstrate involvement generally, from what I have researched and witnessed when auditing motion hearings and trials is that they are discarded by the judge.

There are currently no decisions in the time frames you are boasting for any application before either court of competent jurisdiction in the public record. Furthermore, you still haven't addressed the SIGNIFICANT technical issues with bringing forward this application in the "emergency" way you have claimed.

Most of your story and the continuation of your story is wrought with highly improbably situations in Family Law in the province of Ontario. Most of your current post is wrought with emotional reasoning and no cogent or relevant evidence to "how" you did what you "claim" to have done. Someone who has invested what you claim to have in this matter would be able to name the forms, motions, and technical procedural methods on how this was brought forward.

Even self represented litigants who have only spent 14 hours total on their entire case present more knowledgeable questions and assumptions than you do in your correspondence.

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
Patty60 said:
I spent 14 hours a day, with my husband, researching the law, going back over five years of communication. We copied all Skype calls, all telephone calls.
Click to expand...

that one is brought my attention.

Would you please describe exactly how you manage to copied all Skype calls and if possible what looks even more fascinating all telephone calls for period going back over five years of communication ?


Thank you
WD
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top