Gap year.

[jbrian]

Ok,
I just know that she will argue the months she wasn’t attending school, that full support should have continued to be paid . She already stated in her response to motion that it was my daughters choice to delay start of uni because of the COVID pandemic. My lawyer told me everyone seems to be using this as an excuse. I guess just wait and see what the judge says about it.

 

[rockscan]

Well the onus is on her to prove the child is entitled to support and not enrolling because of COVID is simply an excuse. It could be argued that COVID is still a concern due to the death numbers outlined this week (Toronto Star wrote that there were more deaths from it from September to December than road deaths from road related casualties all of 2022) yet she is attending school away from home and living in residence.

I am sure your ex will use every excuse imaginable but a good lawyer will be able to argue it. Right now it is simply a waiting game to hear from a judge. The fact that she hasn't provided any information and refuses to speak to you won't bode well for her.

 

[StillPaying]

Ok,
I just know that she will argue the months she wasn’t attending school, that full support should have continued to be paid .

There's a good chance her argument will succeed. You're talking about 8ish months. Child would have been applying for university around 18th bday; most likely planning it while 17. Cs would usually continue in this scenario.

CS tends to fall on the side of being paid. It used to be an age limit, then a degree, now multiple degrees. Financial dependence is increasing for longer periods. It's easy to say child is doing their own thing or ex is using cs on cats, yet child is still dependent while doing the right thing.

Your focus should be on lowering support while paying university fees. Doesn't sound like you're paying residence or other fees though; increasing your chances of paying school while continuing cs throughout the year.

 

[jbrian]

I have paid 50% of school fees. That includes residence, meal plan and tuition. I am trying to update old order. Not keep paying fees blindly because ex said this is what it is and then her refusing to update support by ignoring all requests for resolution. It’s working out great for her. She got what she asked for in terms of fees. This is without any official financial statement. And gets to keep pursuing a support amount that should be updated to reflect child’s change in circumstance. Am I missing something here? Does support not change when you are are paying for a child’s residence and meal plan?

 

[jbrian]

If I’m told that I have underpaid by x amount since cs should have been paid while she was applying but not attending, fine! I just want this worked out. This cannot keep going on and on. I cannot keep pursuing a resolution and having the ex delay or avoid because she wants me to pay both University fees and full support. The order is from 2015. My child is not 10 anymore, child support needs to be updated and so does school fees going forward. How can I pay these fees every year without an official statement?? So every year when fees are due I just have to go on good faith because she told me what I have to pay?? What will happened for the next three years? I just refuse to pay without an official statement and end up in court every year? This is all bogus and a calculated effort by the mother to keep receiving support she knows very well needs to change. The onus falls on me to support my daughter in her schooling and her living arrangements and meal plan. Not her mothers.

 

[rockscan]

Like I said, go on the school site and look up fees and costs. Compare it to what she made you pay and also to a quick calculation on what your share should have been. It does need to be updates for sure. That should help you understand what you should have paid and you can prepare yourself.

 

[jbrian]

Hi,

I have a quick question. So heading to DRO in 3 weeks. I still have not received any receipts and statements from university. I imagine it will not be presented during DRO. When it comes to tuition and tax deductions am I entitled to claim my share of the tuition payments on my taxes?
if the DRO ask OP to provide receipts and statements for following case conference (I don’t think anything will happen at DRO since she won’t provide these statements) and they don’t , can I just agree to let the amounts I paid for the first year be what they are? I do not want this to drag on and on waiting for the statements. I could offer 1/3 of the total fees without having to break it down by deducting bursaries and grants etc. I know there will be issues every single year trying to establish an accurate amount of tuition I am to pay. There is no transparency from OP. I just want a resolution. Say her total costs are 21,000 can I offer to pay 1/3 of that amount so give her $7k and not be bothered asking for receipts. Next terms fees are due again in 5 months, I can’t afford to continue to litigate and pay tuition fees at the same time.

 

[rockscan]

Hi,

I have a quick question. So heading to DRO in 3 weeks. I still have not received any receipts and statements from university. I imagine it will not be presented during DRO. When it comes to tuition and tax deductions am I entitled to claim my share of the tuition payments on my taxes?

No. If the agreement you have stipulates she gets all tax benefits or can claim the child for tax purposes, she claims it. Instead you pay a “net cost” which is calculated after a tax deduction. If you have a lawyer they will calculate it in their software.

She will have to provide receipts. If she does not, walk yourself down to the window to schedule your next appearance (I don't know how it is done but there is a counter at the courthouse) and if needed, get a motion for disclosure to have it ordered.

Remember what I said, no receipt, no pay!

if the DRO ask OP to provide receipts and statements for following case conference (I don’t think anything will happen at DRO since she won’t provide these statements) and they don’t , can I just agree to let the amounts I paid for the first year be what they are? I do not want this to drag on and on waiting for the statements. I could offer 1/3 of the total fees without having to break it down by deducting bursaries and grants etc. I know there will be issues every single year trying to establish an accurate amount of tuition I am to pay. There is no transparency from OP. I just want a resolution. Say her total costs are 21,000 can I offer to pay 1/3 of that amount so give her $7k and not be bothered asking for receipts. Next terms fees are due again in 5 months, I can’t afford to continue to litigate and pay tuition fees at the same time.

Do not agree to anything. She will simply claim the cost, take your money and be done with it. She is obligated to provide proof of the expense. You don't have to go to court. If she wants the money, she will provide the receipt. Remember too you want the child support updated. This isn't just the school costs. Put money into a savings account monthly, weekly or daily. Save it for your costs.

Get an updated support amount or pay the full support to be subtracted from your share of expenses and give her nothing more. If she wants school costs she will give you the receipts. Kid gets a statement and can provide it. No litigation needed!

 

[jbrian]

No. If the agreement you have stipulates she gets all tax benefits or can claim the child for tax purposes, she claims it. Instead you pay a “net cost” which is calculated after a tax deduction. If you have a lawyer they will calculate it in their software.

She will have to provide receipts. If she does not, walk yourself down to the window to schedule your next appearance (I don't know how it is done but there is a counter at the courthouse) and if needed, get a motion for disclosure to have it ordered.

Remember what I said, no receipt, no pay!


Do not agree to anything. She will simply claim the cost, take your money and be done with it. She is obligated to provide proof of the expense. You don't have to go to court. If she wants the money, she will provide the receipt. Remember too you want the child support updated. This isn't just the school costs. Put money into a savings account monthly, weekly or daily. Save it for your costs.

Get an updated support amount or pay the full support to be subtracted from your share of expenses and give her nothing more. If she wants school costs she will give you the receipts. Kid gets a statement and can provide it. No litigation needed!

I am hoping to get an updated support amount at DRO, however this is something she is really avoiding. She continues to pursue old support amount through FRO. I have been paying it. I can’t imagine any overpayment/arrears will be sorted out this day. Is this something the judge at a settlement conference will determine?
Also my lawyer is just preparing my brief. Both sides have to file it prior to DRO. Will we be exchanging briefs on thst day or prior to? or is the brief only for the DRO and judge to review? Can I see OP brief and can she view mine?
she is also claiming that I am not being honest with my income. She believes I earn more than my NOAs, I don’t know what else to provide to satisfy her with my income. NOAs, t4 submission, t1 general all provided, my wife’s income was on these documents as well.
In her response she referenced the sale of our old home and purchase of new one. There was no profit as the homes were pretty much the same price. I didn’t think this is something she can use in court as I’ve been married to my wife for 15 years and I own this home with my wife.
she will say anything and delay a resolution to not update support as long as she possibly can.
can we go straight to a settlement conference after DRO?
can the judge issue a new order in regards to the obvious outstanding issues even if she doesn’t agree?
I know these are questions my lawyer should be answering but I appreciate your knowledge and input.

 

[jbrian]

No. If the agreement you have stipulates she gets all tax benefits or can claim the child for tax purposes, she claims it. Instead you pay a “net cost” which is calculated after a tax deduction. If you have a lawyer they will calculate it in their software.

She will have to provide receipts. If she does not, walk yourself down to the window to schedule your next appearance (I don't know how it is done but there is a counter at the courthouse) and if needed, get a motion for disclosure to have it ordered.

Remember what I said, no receipt, no pay!


Do not agree to anything. She will simply claim the cost, take your money and be done with it. She is obligated to provide proof of the expense. You don't have to go to court. If she wants the money, she will provide the receipt. Remember too you want the child support updated. This isn't just the school costs. Put money into a savings account monthly, weekly or daily. Save it for your costs.

Get an updated support amount or pay the full support to be subtracted from your share of expenses and give her nothing more. If she wants school costs she will give you the receipts. Kid gets a statement and can provide it. No litigation needed!

I meant can we schedule the settlement conference after DRO? Can she take the advice of DRO and provide the statements at a settlement conference?
I really do not want to attend to numerous case conference’s. I want this over with. I really hope we can settle at least some of the issues with DRO. Maybe her being told the law will help!

 

[rockscan]

I am hoping to get an updated support amount at DRO, however this is something she is really avoiding. She continues to pursue old support amount through FRO. I have been paying it. I can’t imagine any overpayment/arrears will be sorted out this day. Is this something the judge at a settlement conference will determine?

They might give a temporary order to update support but not likely. You may need another court date. Make sure you advise your lawyer to schedule the next date before you leave the courthouse.

Also my lawyer is just preparing my brief. Both sides have to file it prior to DRO. Will we be exchanging briefs on thst day or prior to? or is the brief only for the DRO and judge to review? Can I see OP brief and can she view mine?

The moving party files their brief first and it is served on the court and the other party several days ahead of the date. The response is then filed and served so yes you will get a copy of their brief.

she is also claiming that I am not being honest with my income. She believes I earn more than my NOAs, I don’t know what else to provide to satisfy her with my income. NOAs, t4 submission, t1 general all provided, my wife’s income was on these documents as well.

You provided everything. The onus is on her to prove her argument. Also, your new wife is not obligated to provide her income. It should not be on anything unless you are claiming hardship which you should not be doing. Your ex is not entitled to that info, do not provide it.

In her response she referenced the sale of our old home and purchase of new one. There was no profit as the homes were pretty much the same price. I didn’t think this is something she can use in court as I’ve been married to my wife for 15 years and I own this home with my wife.
she will say anything and delay a resolution to not update support as long as she possibly can.

Irrelevant. You can buy a new house to live in. And if she is attempting to delay, you can request relief. That includes costs awards.

can we go straight to a settlement conference after DRO?

Depends on what the judge says but maybe.

can the judge issue a new order in regards to the obvious outstanding issues even if she doesn’t agree? I know these are questions my lawyer should be answering but I appreciate your knowledge and input.

If there is proof your child is not at home and hasn't been in school since turning 18 then yes they can put in place an interim order.

Breathe. This will get dealt with. My husband went through something similar with an ex who refused to provide documentation and dragged her feet. It got resolved and settled eventually. In his case he had an overpayment so there was no rush as that went to the money owed.

 

[jbrian]

They might give a temporary order to update support but not likely. You may need another court date. Make sure you advise your lawyer to schedule the next date before you leave the courthouse.


The moving party files their brief first and it is served on the court and the other party several days ahead of the date. The response is then filed and served so yes you will get a copy of their brief.
Am I the moving party since I filed the motion to change? On all other docs I have always been the respondent, so my lawyer and I will see the other parties brief/response prior to DRO?…. this should be interesting ..,ughhh


You provided everything. The onus is on her to prove her argument. Also, your new wife is not obligated to provide her income. It should not be on anything unless you are claiming hardship which you should not be doing. Your ex is not entitled to that info, do not provide it. I agree it should not have been on there, however the law clerk did not redact my wife’s income as I requested. Doesn’t matter now.


Irrelevant. You can buy a new house to live in. And if she is attempting to delay, you can request relief. That includes costs awards.

Depends on what the judge says but maybe.


If there is proof your child is not at home and hasn't been in school since turning 18 then yes they can put in place an interim order.

Breathe. This will get dealt with. My husband went through something similar with an ex who refused to provide documentation and dragged her feet. It got resolved and settled eventually. In his case he had an overpayment so there was no rush as that went to the money owed.

I am trying!!

 

[rockscan]

I know! There were moments when I would say that to my husband in the lawyer's office and he would say “that's great but I want to hear what my lawyer has to say” and his lawyer would point at me and say “what she said”.

My husband's ex tried everything. I mean EVERYTHING to get away with shit. She wanted to know everything about our income and what we spent our money on but refused to provide documents. She made pages of tables and calculations and still—no receipts! It wasn't until her motion for disclosure when the judge ordered her to pay costs that she wised up.

 

[rockscan]

You are the moving party so you file first and she responds. So you will see her documents I believe seven days or four days in advance.

It doesn't matter now if your wife's info has been seen. It is still irrelevant.

 

[jbrian]

You are the moving party so you file first and she responds. So you will see her documents I believe seven days or four days in advance.

It doesn't matter now if your wife's info has been seen. It is still irrelevant.

Case conference brief has been filed. She still hasn’t provided any official financial statements from university other than stating I have now paid the fees she requested. She also stated she wants to impute income for purpose of receiving a higher support amount and that I cover 50% of tuition and living expenses. Child living away from home in residence , and I’m paying full support since she has refused to enter a consent motion to change back in March when I provided NOAs. I have been self employed since 2019 and earning less than I did when original order was put in place in 2015. I didn’t bother to update my income because I knew she would not consent and I would risk not seeing my daughter. She’s imputing on the belief I am earning more than filed on my NOAs. I pay taxes on personal expenses as I claim a portion of them and along with my salary when I file my taxes. ie rent my business pays out to me since I have a shop that I use for work on my property. It’s not hidden. She wants all my business financials I file with CRA for my company. This is never going to end. I don’t have the funds. Legal fees and tuition have been paid from my personal LOC since she gave short deadlines to make payments to the university. She also wants cost awarded from the time she had retained counsel. She is no longer represented and claims she ran out of her retainer quickly because she had to send her lawyer to many emails. My lawyer says it’s all smoke and mirrors from her end since I have provided everything she has asked for. She made a call to a company I carry work out for as a subcontractor claiming she believes I am salaried employee there. Office of company told her I carry out work for them. She took that as that I am employee. My lawyer isn’t acknowledging her accusations and beliefs. Lawyer is just sticking to the point and stating facts. This sounds like it’s going to be a long process. I have no funds to keep my lawyer and will be forced to self represent.
What are you thoughts on my situation??

 

[rockscan]

Case conference brief has been filed. She still hasn't provided any official financial statements from university other than stating I have now paid the fees she requested.

She should be providing it with her documents. If she doesn't, make sure your lawyer requests an order for disclosure of: a statement of account from the school; a statement of account from OSAP; all documentation of residence fees and meal plan if it is not provided on the statement of account; and receipts for books. Request that these items be provided on an ongoing basis prior to calculating your share of expenses.

She also stated she wants to impute income for purpose of receiving a higher support amount

She will have to argue that herself and it is difficult to do if you have provided full disclosure from taxes. Have you applied for credit or a loan lately? If you have, show her the application with the income you claimed to foreclose the argument.

and that I cover 50% of tuition and living expenses.

Won't happen. It's proportionate to income after a contribution from kid.

Child living away from home in residence , and I'm paying full support since she has refused to enter a consent motion to change back in March when I provided NOAs.

Which is why you are requesting a calculation of the overpayment or discontinuing arrears if that hasn't been paid.

I have been self employed since 2019 and earning less than I did when original order was put in place in 2015.

if you have been paying the same as the higher amount up until kid went to school, it wouldn't factor in since you technically agreed by paying it. Now you are seeking to update it which is correct.

She's imputing on the belief I am earning more than filed on my NOAs.

She is throwing everything at the wall to see if it will stick. Ignore her.

She wants all my business financials I file with CRA for my company.

Ignore. She won't get anywhere with this.

She also wants cost awarded from the time she had retained counsel.

You ask for costs too.

My lawyer says it's all smoke and mirrors from her end since I have provided everything she has asked for.

Your lawyer is right.

My lawyer isn't acknowledging her accusations and beliefs. Lawyer is just sticking to the point and stating facts.

You have a good lawyer. Don't use up their time and retainer. Go to the conference and see what is said. Your ex is getting crazy now since she knows she is caught. Breathe. You will be ok.

My husband's ex played almost the same stupid game. She refused to update cs because it went down. Filed with FRO and got less money (he was unemployed and their order was out of date). Then his oldest went to uni and she told him they needed to take out a loan to cover costs. When the school year was done she played a game with the costs and refused to provide info. After a month and a half of back and forth and bs from his kid the receipts came in and the amount he was to pay was 1/5 what she claimed he owed. Ditto for second year and he tried to push her to update cs. She filed in court and self repped and played more bs games claiming she needed full table support while kid was away AND excess funds since kid shouldn't have to pay a share. Then she argued she needed full details on all our finances, what we spent money on, claimed my husband was making more money than he did and that the kids were psychologically unbalanced and she needed MORE money for that. She lost her motion for disclosure with the judge telling her he didn't believe anything she said and ordered her to pay $3000 in costs. When they made it to the settlement conference we had learned kids weren't in school for two years and their expenses were not as high as she claimed. She wanted $80,000 plus ongoing support. She walked away with $20,000 which was what my husband had planned to pay all along. It was six years of uni costs that hadn't been paid due to court and three years of back support due to non update. His legal fees were about $12,000 over five years. The only thing that pissed us off was that there was no need for court and after being told by two judges she was wrong, she still claimed she was the victim and convinced the kids their dad and I are bad people.

I think it will work out. It's just an ugly process to get through because your ex refuses to be reasonable.

 

[jbrian]

She should be providing it with her documents. If she doesn't, make sure your lawyer requests an order for disclosure of: a statement of account from the school; a statement of account from OSAP; all documentation of residence fees and meal plan if it is not provided on the statement of account; and receipts for books. Request that these items be provided on an ongoing basis prior to calculating your share of expenses. Loses patience with this one. What’s the problem in proving this information. I believe my daughter received more funding. My daughter had the option of living with me while attending uni. However I was not included in any discussions regarding her choice of school. OP home is very rural location where closest university is 2 hours away. Engineered for me to keep paying support to mom. Mom says it was daughter’s decision and daughter shoukd not be riddled with debt so it’s up to us to pay for as much of her school as possible. With me paying bulk of fees.

She will have to argue that herself and it is difficult to do if you have provided full disclosure from taxes. Have you applied for credit or a loan lately? If you have, show her the application with the income you claimed to foreclose the argument. Yes mortgage app when we moved into home. I provided mortgage approval letter to my lawyer in case.

Won't happen. It's proportionate to income after a contribution from kid.

Which is why you are requesting a calculation of the overpayment or discontinuing arrears if that hasn't been paid.
Yes provided her with an offer to settle along with my brief. I asked to discontinue the arrears and update the support. Brief provided a breakdown of costs and proof of support payments and a divorce mate calculation showing the overpayments. Didn’t ask for overpayments in my offer to settle. Just update going forward. Along with me paying 1/3 of all costs.
if you have been paying the same as the higher amount up until kid went to school, it wouldn't factor in since you technically agreed by paying it. Now you are seeking to update it which is correct.

She is throwing everything at the wall to see if it will stick. Ignore her.

Ignore. She won't get anywhere with this.

You ask for costs too.

Your lawyer is right.

You have a good lawyer. Don't use up their time and retainer. Go to the conference and see what is said. Your ex is getting crazy now since she knows she is caught. Breathe. You will be ok.

My husband's ex played almost the same stupid game. She refused to update cs because it went down. Filed with FRO and got less money (he was unemployed and their order was out of date). Then his oldest went to uni and she told him they needed to take out a loan to cover costs. When the school year was done she played a game with the costs and refused to provide info. After a month and a half of back and forth and bs from his kid the receipts came in and the amount he was to pay was 1/5 what she claimed he owed. Ditto for second year and he tried to push her to update cs. She filed in court and self repped and played more bs games claiming she needed full table support while kid was away AND excess funds since kid shouldn't have to pay a share. Then she argued she needed full details on all our finances, what we spent money on, claimed my husband was making more money than he did and that the kids were psychologically unbalanced and she needed MORE money for that. She lost her motion for disclosure with the judge telling her he didn't believe anything she said and ordered her to pay $3000 in costs. When they made it to the settlement conference we had learned kids weren't in school for two years and their expenses were not as high as she claimed. She wanted $80,000 plus ongoing support. She walked away with $20,000 which was what my husband had planned to pay all along. It was six years of uni costs that hadn't been paid due to court and three years of back support due to non update. His legal fees were about $12,000 over five years. The only thing that pissed us off was that there was no need for court and after being told by two judges she was wrong, she still claimed she was the victim and convinced the kids their dad and I are bad people. There has been no need for court. She says she refused to mediate because she didn’t “feel” I was being honest with my income.
This has been emotionally and mentally exhausting. Not just on me, but my wife, she is very supportive but stressed Since we have incurred debt. This affecting my marriage. Our sons have no idea why they haven’t seen their sister in almost two years. We try to shield them from adult conversations, however they are in their early teens 12 and 13 and are aware that something is happening. OP has successfully alienated my daughter from me. She has told her I have purposely taken her mom to court because I don’t want to pay her school fees or support to mom. My daughter doesn’t understand we have a court order that needs to be updated.

I think it will work out. It's just an ugly process to get through because your ex refuses to be reasonable.

Very ugly process. It didn’t need to be this way. Ex is uncooperative because she knows delaying a resolution will ensure I continue to provide her with full support. I have entered a VAPS with FRO so I don’t lose my DL. I have a case work who knows all about our situation. I have sent updated income, court documents. Have requested an end to enforcements 10xs. Always get the same answer. Their hands are tied until they receive a new order. OP on the phone with FRO 1st if every money looking for her support. Which leads to another call from a random operator she has cried to.
what are the chances of updating support at DRO?

 

[rockscan]

Ask your lawyer to push for an interim order especially since you don't expect to be repaid.

You may need a separate order against FRO to halt enforcement.

See what happens at DRC. I have no experience with an order like that from a DRC but I know some conferences involve interim orders.

 

[rockscan]

I went back and re-read what you tried to respond to in quotes. You have to have the end quote ( /quote in the square brackets) so we can see your response. With respect to her school decision, you don't get a say. The counter to that is that kid has to pay more. The judge in my husband's case addressed this by saying if kid wants to go to a school across the country because they like the activities, and mom and dad can only pay for a local school, then kid pays more. That was for his kids who live within commuting distance of six universities and colleges though. If your kid is rural and the closest school requires residence then kid is within right to live at school. That doesn't mean you pay for all of it though and kid probably got more grant funding.

More than likely kid got more grant funding than mom wants to share which means your amount is lower. Hopefully the documentation comes soon.

When is your conference?

 

[jbrian]

I went back and re-read what you tried to respond to in quotes. You have to have the end quote ( /quote in the square brackets) so we can see your response. With respect to her school decision, you don't get a say. The counter to that is that kid has to pay more. The judge in my husband's case addressed this by saying if kid wants to go to a school across the country because they like the activities, and mom and dad can only pay for a local school, then kid pays more. That was for his kids who live within commuting distance of six universities and colleges though. If your kid is rural and the closest school requires residence then kid is within right to live at school. That doesn't mean you pay for all of it though and kid probably got more grant funding.

More than likely kid got more grant funding than mom wants to share which means your amount is lower. Hopefully the documentation comes soon.

When is your conference?

Ok I see that now! Later this week. She’s probably following this thread. She’s somewhat of an investigator. She prepared her own offer to settle. It’s laughable. You would have to read it to believe. Basically no contributions from my daughter and she wants the arrears that have accumulated paid even though there is an overpayment. All company documents and a ROE from last company I worked for years ago. It’s laughable