Forced to live above my means

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twister777

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Ex is wanting to put my 2 boys in hockey, it's a status thing for her. Stay at home mom and all.

Anyways, I do not wish my boys to be in hockey as it will interfere with my EOWeekend visitation with them and I simply cannot afford it. Kids live a few hours away and I do not feel it is right to force me into spending my quality time and only time sitting in a rink where one son would be here and one would be there (tournaments and games) also I have a daughter, and I think it would be unfair to her as well to be spending all her time with dad in the rink.

I cannot afford hockey. Especially not for 2 boys. We are to split costs on section 7 expenses but I do not think hockey is necessary and reasonable. Dont get me wrong love the game. It just doesnt fit our family's income.

Ex on the other hand has another man in her life and gets all of his income to himself. I pay a hefty cs payment and can't afford much more after that. If it is necessary I would make do, but being forced into paying for hockey is just unreasonable.

So, can this be forced upon me?

I have offered mediation to resolve this issue but of course I am getting court thrown my way. Our agreement also states that we give eachother reasonable notice and obtain consent or the party requesting reimbursement will not be entitled to it.

Rec hockey would be fine and we almost came to an agreement on that but then she started in on it turning into competitive. If I agree to rec only and it turns competitive would I be forced to pay my share?

Is it unreasonable for me to suggest to her she can front the bill if she decides to go over my head and do it anyways?

Very new into divorce just looking for advice.
 
I know your asking about being 'forced' ie the courts. I can only give my opinion on what is reasonable.

CS covers one house league (rec league) sport at any one time - for me hockey in the winter, soccer in the summer. It only covers this if the combined incomes of the parents are normal for the types of parents that send their kid to hockey.

Competitive level is section 7 (if your incomes are average), and therefore you can reject to pay for it.

Calling rec soccer, rec hockey covered by CS would make a lot of CS recipients balk and say no way, but that is my opinion - CS covers normal expenses for your income range, and rec sports are normal.

In my case my ex does not complain, because we have shared access, offset CS and therefore we split sports 50/50, and not according to incomes, as the CS offset I pay her already covers my portion. My ex has also refused to pay the last round of soccer for our three kids, and is saying she can't afford to pay her share of hockey. There is no reasonable way for me to force the issue, so I find the money and pay for it all. There are some costs she is asking from me, so I don't pay those - complicated by that is the way she is playing things.

So my point is house league hockey is covered by CS if you have a reasonable income level and pay full CS. You can refuse any section 7 expense as they are by definition "extra ordinary".

Also, the access issue is legit in that I think the kids should play some hockey (or whatever), but if comp. level interferes with your access, you should be able to refuse it if you think it is best for your kids.
 
According to our agreement the section on sports it says extra ordinary expenses for extra curricular activities. My lawyer seems to think that no sport would be included in the CS!? Like Rec hockey, soccer or tball. I'm getting so many mixed answers and apparently judges are not all on the same fence on section 7 extra ordinary expenses! My income before CS would be able to afford hockey but with CS coming out I just can't see how I'll be able to!

I was raised knowing you cant always get all you want, ex got everything she want. I want my kids to enjoy life and play sports and excel in education but it's gotta be within reason.
 
My understanding of Section 7 expenses, which states that these expenses include: extraordinary expenses for extracurricular activities, is that the expense "must be reasonable". For example, if a child displays a particular aptitude at something – for instance, is a star hockey player – you may well need to contribute to the hockey expenses. However if its just a means to be active, the child could be playing another sport that is much less expensive. In my case, our kids did swimming, skipping, dance and drum lessons. Both kids learned to swim and I taught them to skate. Neither had a particular aptitude for any of the other activities so in all reasonableness (not sure if that is a word or not but you get my meaning) neither child needed to continue with the lessons if either of the parents could not afford it. I believe the general trend is to look at the expense in comparison to the family's income. I also have a clause regarding agreeing to such an expense in advance otherwise the party who does not agree is absolved from liability for the cost of the activity; I also have a clause that states that neither party shall schedule any activities for our children that fall on the other party's parenting time without first obtaining permission; also if we split the costs for an activity and if either party receives an income deduction or other benefit, we agree to reimburse the other party in accordance with the proportion of their contribution; imo first look at the history of activities for your kids - have they always played hockey and are they hockey stars or are they just participating in an activity for fun; if its just for fun and you can no longer afford it then they could be doing something else much cheaper that would be just as much fun; second if you are consulted in advance and do not agree to enrol your kids in said activity that should absolve you for the costs of the activity (I would point that out to the other party); thirdly if an activity encroaches upon your parenting time you can choose to not bring them to the activity without any repercussions from the other parent. If the oher party is not being reasonable then I would not agree to cover said expenses and seek the next best way of resolving this issue - mediation, court...
 
Children have never been in hockey or have shown any interest in it. I figure if my son was to be competitive he shoulda started years ago and knows at least how to skate?
 
I was just notified about hockey a week ago and they are to be registered in 2 weeks. She never asked my opinion on it, just told me they will be registered and I will HAVE to pay half. All receipts are sent to her lawyer and I am not even aware of half of them. Shouldn't the receipts be going to me?

Ex and I have numerous emails debating about this issue and she will not budge. Basically telling me she will take this to court and apply for more cs? I already pay the table amount. The costs associated with hockey, equipment and tournaments exceed more than half my disposable income for the whole year. I can't even afford to save for retirement or start RESP's for my kids.

The kids have hefty dental bills coming up as well, but of course I will not be notified when treatment takes place until after the fact. I am never consented with, just told.

How do you deal with this? I am racking up my lawyer fees asking these questions and my lawyer just keeps telling me she is just trying to be in control with her threats because she herself knows she is being unreasonable.

She had too much control on my earnings when we were together and is still trying to have control. Frustrating.
 
Is there a provision in your separation agreement that requires consultation between the parties as to the factors to be taken into account in determining the propriety of any given “extra-curricular activity”?

If there is, this is how I deal would with this -- I would not debate this issue with my ex. instead I would reply to her email notification about the hockey with: I was not consulted with prior to this email of your intentions to register our kids in hockey. Since there was no discussion and no formal agreement between us to register our kids in hockey, I am not liable to cover half of the costs of this activity under Section -- of our Separation Agreement Dated -- (if you have such a section in your agreement). If you do register our kids in hockey without my consent to cover costs, you are solely responsible for said costs. In the future, please confer with me before making any decisions regarding our kids that not only impose upon my parenting time but also carry financial obligations that I may or may not formally agree to cover.

I would probably even add a sentence about this activity not being something they participated in, in the past when we were married so it is not an activity I feel is necessary nor is it financially reasonable. (this brings forth 2 things - the means of spouses and the prior spending patterns for such activities by the family as a unit) (remember benefit and necessity are not mutually inclusive)

In regards to dental costs, I would start a dialog by sending an email requesting when your kids appointments are so that you may attend them. I would also include in my email that I expect a response within a short amount of time. Something like, please let me know when our kids' dental appointments are booked for by the end of day (enter day and date). If I did not receive a response by that date, I would then followup with another email stating that: Since I have not received a response from you, I expect to be consulted with before commencing treatment for dental work for our kids outside of the general cleaning costs. (you could also contact the dental office directly for the appt info and treatment info) I would request copies of all receipts (originals if you need them for insurance purposes) within 30 days and if I do not receive them within this time period I am not responsible for delayed reimbursement.

I always request receipts and if I do not receive them, I do not cover any costs until I do.

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highli...doc/1998/1998canlii12291/1998canlii12291.html

Hope this helps.
 
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Found on Canlii:

I would continue to request: With respect to extra-curricular expenses, ---- shall provide ---- with 30 days written notice with respect to the amount and nature of the expenses for ---- approval (consideration).

found in a canlii case: Some parents put their children in hockey and some do not. Those who do not, for reasons of time commitment, finances, or simply because they do not like hockey, are not necessarily bad parents. for ex: ----- should have obtained ----- agreement to co-operate before enrolling ---- in hockey. Having failed to get his agreement, she could have requested mediation, as contemplated by the joint custody order. This she did not do. Since extra-curricular activities must be decided jointly, it is not a material change in circumstances when one party disagrees with the choice of the other.)

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highli...sk/skqb/doc/2004/2004skqb195/2004skqb195.html



[21] To qualify as s.7 expenses, the expenses must be "extraordinary" because, in my opinion, ordinary extra-curricular activities are subsumed in the table amount. Extraordinary expenses would include those activities for which the cost is disproportionably high in relation to the payor's income. The expenses must be reasonably necessary having regard to the income of the parties. It is not open to a custodial parent to select any recreational activity, regardless of cost and then demand that the other parent contribute. Households where both parents reside must moderate or modify their children's extra‑curricular activities in light of the cost of those activities and the means of the parents. Children as well as parents suffer financial consequences when the parents separate and limited family resources are split between two households. Unless there is a special need for the activity the cost of which is disproportionate to the parent's income, no contribution should be required from the non-custodial parent.


http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highli...n/ab/abqb/doc/1998/1998abqb44/1998abqb44.html


[10] With respect to the 2008/2009 expenses, the petitioner made no effort to consult with the respondent in advance. As a result, while there may have been expenses incurred which might otherwise have been found to be appropriate s. 7 expenses, the respondent will not be required to contribute to those expenses other than as agreed upon. I do note that the dollar value is similar to the current expenses in the January 2008 order. Had the petitioner consulted the respondent, the result may have been different.


http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highli...sk/skqb/doc/2010/2010skqb380/2010skqb380.html
 
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Wow thanks for all that info! I will have to read this over again before responding. I appreciate your reply.

Just a quick note: The only clause in our agreement is that each party needs to give reasonable notice and obtain consent on extra ordinary expenses and fail to do so will result with no contribution to the other party! Neither party will unreasonably withhold consent!

Thats not exact words but you get the idea
 
First Timer,

I did tell my ex that she does not have my consent and she is on her own for the costs if she goes through with it. I have also told her the kids have never been in hockey and that I do not think it is a reasonable necessity.

It does not matter what I say to her. She is unreasonable all the time. Even refuses mediation. But, in our agreement we agreed to seek mediation before the courts.

She is unreasonable even with her own clauses she has added to the agreement.

As for medical and dental etc...I am on it. I have record of past conversations on dental and the fact that she just TOLD me she had the kids booked in for threatments in 2 weeks time and she needed $1300 upfront. I did some investigating and found that we could get the dental work at another office for half the cost with my medical plan. She just refuses and says I am making it hard for her to take care of the kids and her lawyer said that because the kids went to this other Dr. when we were married she does not need my consent as that was consent enough? Anyways, she huffed and puffed about it and made the appointments for August. So she says. It is now September and no word on their "appointments" or my children telling me they went to one.

Sorry, felt good to vent.
 
Since I do not know what your custody agreement is for your kids, my response below assumes you have joint custody. (where two parents together discuss, co-operate and colaborate upon major decisions regarding the children)

I would not give her money upfront for dental work that you were not consulted about before the treatment commenced. Of course, you have the option of "shopping around" for dental work especially if the costs are lower some place else and covered under your medical plan. As far as I know, outside of regular checkups and cleanings, etc., costs that are in the ballpark of $1300 for dental work would be considered under Section 7 expenses - (c) health-related expenses that exceed insurance reimbursement by at least $100 annually, including orthodontic treatment, professional counselling provided by a psychologist, social worker, psychiatrist or any other person, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy and prescription drugs, hearing aids, glasses and contact lenses; which means she cannot make these decisions unilaterally; she should be giving you reasonable notice of the said expenses as well as an opportunity to agree or disagree. I would request a copy (original if you need it for your insurance provider) of the proposed course of treatment including costs to send to your insurance provider so that you can get a pre-treatment estimate from your insurance provider to ensure, first and foremost, that the dental procedure is eligible and your insurance provider will also advise you of the benefits payable under your insurance plan before treatment begins. Once you have this information, then you can get estimates of the treatment costs from other dentists if you wish too and submit those as well to your insurance provider and so on, until you are satisfied with the amount of "out of pocket" costs for the treatment which would then be split between you and your ex according to your separation agreement. All of this information would be freely provided by you to your ex as well - follow the notification and consultation rule of thumb.

As far as consent goes for which dentist your kids visit, well, she may not need your consent regarding who does the dental work but she does need to give you notice of the said expenses (proposed treatment plan for your insurance provider) and consult with you before commencing treatment (unless it is some kind of an emergency but that goes without saying).

This was probably not how you and your ex handled such matters when you were married nor was it that way for me and my ex but as all divorced ppl learn that once you are no longer married a new way of doing things has to be established. It takes time and patience to establish this new way of doing things but it generally follows the same pattern of interaction each time especially when it involves matters around your kids. Once this pattern of interaction is established it gets much easier with time.
 
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HEALTH-RELATED EXPENSES
[12] The relevant section of the Minutes of Settlement reads:
The Husband shall maintain and keep in force medical and hospital insurance for the infant children and shall pay and be responsible for reasonable dental, optical and hearing expenses for the infant children, it being understood and agreed that in the event of any major expenditures with respect to the last items, the Husband shall be consulted and approve such expenditures before they are incurred.
[13] Both parties are required to comply with the terms of the Minutes of Settlement which is a valid and binding agreement. Mrs. Cowan will therefore consult with Mr. Cowan concerning the dental work. Mr. Cowan is entitled to consult with the orthodontist and/or another dentist, and to obtain a second opinion. The anticipated dental expenses come within s. 7.1(c), and Mr. Cowan will be required to pay his proportionate share of the cost of the dental work over and above what is not covered by his insurance in accordance with s. 7.1(c) of the Guidelines. He can communicate directly with his children’s dentist and orthodontist.

CanLII - 2001 ABQB 439 (CanLII)

3. Recouping of costs of orthodontic treatment through insurance coverage
[17] Ms. Arnold indicates that, as a result of the fact that each of the parents has paid for separate dental coverage, the parties will presumably be able to cover 100% of the orthodontic treatment for the children: one policy will cover 60% of the orthodontics and the other policy will cover 50%. Because she does not wish to unilaterally finance the orthodontic treatments, she asks that Mr. Arnold submit dental invoices within 15 days of their receipt for payment by his insurance carrier. The only issue concerning prompt repayment of costs appears to have arisen over Mr. Arnold’s request that orthodontic treatment be sequenced so that the treatment of the older child, whose needs he states are more immediate than those of the younger child, is paid for before new costs are incurred for the younger child. In light of the size of the orthodontic costs relative to the income of the parents, and the fact that some of the orthodontic treatment appears, from the available insurance coverage, to be elective, Mr. Arnold’s position concerning sequencing is reasonable. There is no suggestion that Mr. Arnold will delay submitting his request for payment from his insurers.

5. Making unilateral decisions on medical, dental, educational and extracurricular activity costs
[22] Mr. Arnold’s request that the very large expenses for what is, at least to some extent, elective dental treatment for the children be undertaken serially rather than simultaneously appears, on the face of it, to be a reasonable position in which the mother should have acquiesced. There is no evidence on this motion of any unreasonable position taken by Mr. Arnold relative to the medical, dental, educational or extracurricular costs of the children of the marriage. Ms. Arnold is not entitled to make unilateral decisions on these issues.

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highli...n/ab/abqb/doc/2004/2004abqb26/2004abqb26.html
 
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My stbx and I split our boys 50/50...no CS...no ss (he is in process of getting me to pay him ss).

Both of our children play competitive lacrosse, and hockey. We split the costs (he actually told me I owe him $1.50 for a share of a $3.00 tape roll this week ! ha)...if he takes one to a tournament out of town I give him some money for gas/sharing hotel etc. In turn I buy the boys clothes and ask him for half (I then give him half of the purchases for his house).

It's crazy expensive and I understand your concern. We had a wicked fight that lasted probably a year when he signed our eldest up for hockey. But...Our boys have met friends that they will have for life (I hope...some are going on 8 years now), respect for their town (as they are representing them when travelling), know what is appropriate behaviour, and don't get into trouble at school because they have an outlet to 'burn' off the extra energy all week....

I find the money as the benefits are worth every penny !
 
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