Financial Question

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katc

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Husby and I live as friends. Neither of us want to sell and have been living amicably for 3 years now as "roommates" (no benefits).

I need to secure the financial aspect of my investment and am seeking advice.

When we purchased the home, it was the proceeds from the sale of my previous home that was the downpayment on the current home. He put in zero dollars, except what he says is approx. $30k in renovations/new furniture purcahses. I have told him that is not calculated in the down payment.

In 2008, we refinanced our home and added $23k of his credit card debt (no doubt for the renovations). It was a very stupid move on my part to agree to this - I am now repaying his debt. :(

I need to ensure that if we part ways or if I pass away, the downpayment, plus the $23k of his debt plus half of the equity comes back to my estate (for my son).

We have a current agreement (not notarized) but it includes the reno stuff. I'm in the process of redoing the agreement and will take it to a lawyer to be endorsed / witnessed, etc.

Also, I'm reading about real estate fees - how does one include that?

Many thanks!
 
You are married, this is the matrimonial home. By the letter of the law, the value is split 50/50.

What you seem to want is a negotiated settlement, which can work and be binding, but you two have to agree. If I read your post correctly, you want most or all of the value of the mat home because you made the downpayments? He does not agree because he put $30k + into renovations?

You can keep it simple, split the value 50/50 and save arguing, just go with the fact that this clearly spelled out in the Ontario Family Law Act and forget what you each put in.

Or, you can ask him for an offer; don't worry about his reasoning or what he says he put in, ask him what he wants as a settlement. Then think it over and decide if you can afford it, or if you can bet a arrangment either through negotiations or through the courts.

It sounds like you are completely amicable right now. Does that relationship have a value to you, or are you expecting to part ways in the future? Even with roommates, as soon as you start arguing money, things go South pretty quickly.
 
plus if he put in 30,000 for renos and you expect him to walk away without even getting that, then you should be paying the debt. He increased the value of the house and deserves to be paid for that. Why should you reap the reward of what he did and he get the debt from that?
 
I put in $70k as a down payment. He agreed to the renos. But those renos went on his credit cards, which we later remortgaged (essentially it came out of my original $70k or the equity in the home - whichever way you want to say it).

Those renos may have increased the value of the home yes, and he'll be compensated when he gets half the equity.

I paid for a new roof to the tune of $6k - I don't expect to see that back. I bought new garage doors, again, it's not "tangible" money like the down payment - that's guaranteed as long as the home is still valued at the original purchase price - that money is still there. One can't guarantee equity.

Why should HE reap the reward of getting half of my $70k that I, as a single mother for 18 years scrimped and saved for? Money that belongs to my son. Not him.

He can't buy me out - he has NO money.

I offered to assume his debt, if he would sign off on the mortgage and the title and walk.

Let this be a lesson to others who marry late in life - don't do it.
 
I lost everything so I know where you are coming from.

Hopefully he will agree to a financial arrangement. IF he does make sure you get it in writing, with ILA. If he won't agree to that then you have to go with what Mess has said - basically Matrimonial Property Act of your province.

Putting the discussion off will not help. Actually it will make things worse in the long run as you are currently "accepting" the arrangement you are living in.

Hope you can come to a reasonable agreement and get things resolved. Either way it might be beneficial for you both to get an appraisal of the home.

The law is quite specific on these matters and you certainly cannot "lord" things over him (you can try but it probably won't work as he has likely sought out his own counsel).

If you don't want to have to pay anyone out in the future it's simple - don't live with them. Hindsight sucks though doesn't it.
 
What a frustrating situation to be in. Keep in mind though that it may -remember I did not say will- be better to just split 50/50 if we wants to be difficult and drag it to court. Reason being: Legal fees/court costs add up quicker than any other bill :(
 
katc said:
Why should HE reap the reward of getting half of my $70k that I, as a single mother for 18 years scrimped and saved for? Money that belongs to my son. Not him.
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Because it is the matrimonial home, and of all assets gathered or gained during a marriage, it is calculated differently. When you commit to a marriage, you commit.

Ignorantia juris non excusat
 
He paid $30k for renos plus provided labour; you paid off $23k for the credit card and got the labour of the renos done for free. Meanwhile he carried the debt for the renos for several years (you don't say when the renos were done) and paid a substantial amount of interest on that amount.

If you had just hired someone, they bought the materials, did all the labour, and then you didn't pay them for years, and ended up only paying them 75% of the cost of the materials and nothing for their labour, years later, you should expect to be sued.

While I understand that you feel you own a larger share of the home, I also think you are displaying a ridiculous sense of entitlement.

Again, by law he gets half the value of the house. If you want to give him less than that, you first of all have to make a better case than you are making, and secondly you need to take the chip off of your shoulder before you begin negotiations.
 
katc - I would recommend you do some reading through previous threads on this forum. It is quite a bit cheaper to read about what others have been through than to pay a lawyer to be told basically the same thing.

Beware of lawyers who only tell you what you want to hear. I would recommend that you be well-informed at the start of whatever process/mediation you and your stbx opt for.

Good luck
 
mcdreamy said:
Because it is the matrimonial home, and of all assets gathered or gained during a marriage, it is calculated differently. When you commit to a marriage, you commit.

Ignorantia juris non excusat
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McDreamy, always impressed how in so few words you can communicate a position.

For those who are not familiar with the Latin term used by McDreamy here is the Wikipedia on it:

Ignorantia juris non excusat

Ignorantia juris non excusat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ignorantia juris non excusat or ignorantia legis neminem excusat (Latin for "ignorance of the law does not excuse" or "ignorance of the law excuses no one") is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content.
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Do note the following in addition that many simply glossing over the above provided link may miss:

This principle is also stated into law:

Canada: Criminal Code (RSC 1985, c. C-46), section 19[1]
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Just to note: Those who often make false allegations of any kind often attempt to claim ignorance to knowing that the way they conducted themseleves before the court was ignorant. They even claim this when they have had retained counsel who possibly advised them prior to their bad conduct and still ignore the law and bring forward frivolous matters.

This is a common problem that is exposed when people bring "urgent" (emergency) ex-parte motions before the court quite often. These litigants often state "the didn't know what else to do".

To that I suggest:

Ignorantia juris non excusat or ignorantia legis neminem excusat

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
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Mess said:
, and secondly you need to take the chip off of your shoulder before you begin negotiations.
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Mess, I'm not sure where that comment is coming from. "chip on my shoulder?" And why a "ridiculous sense of entitlement". I certainly never expected to "share" my sons inheritance with a man I have known for 6 years. 'nor my pension of 26 years with a man who has been in my life for 6 years. I will certainly do what I can to ensure that it does not happen.

I should have taken out the $90k+ when we renegotiated the mortgage a few months ago. He was certainly in agreement to doing so then - but I listened to my broker who suggested it wasn't a good idea.

I am very confused with the legalities. We have been trying to get this sorted out for 3 years now. I am sick to my stomach to think that I will have lost my $70k - in fact, it angers me.

I guess on a good note, he signed the MSC, it's in the mail.

The next step in the process is to figure everything else out and find a good lawyer.
 
katc said:
Mess, I'm not sure where that comment is coming from. "chip on my shoulder?" And why a "ridiculous sense of entitlement". I certainly never expected to "share" my sons inheritance with a man I have known for 6 years. 'nor my pension of 26 years with a man who has been in my life for 6 years. I will certainly do what I can to ensure that it does not happen.
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You may want to consider the wise words of the Honourable Madame Justice Mossip prior to proceeding to court with this viewpoint:

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f3/introducing-very-honourable-madame-justice-mossip-13753/

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
I'm getting the feeling that my original down payment on the home we currently share is to be split 50/50. THAT was not accumulated during our marriage - I had that before I even knew him.
 
Yes but you comingled the funds in the mat home so that could be a different story. You better hope he plays nice because the rules of family law and the mat home are quite clear.
 
Yes, so I have read. Makes me sick to my stomach.

I think it's time those rules were changed - gone are the days of the "traditional" marriage of decades ago, where the women didn't work, took care of their husbands every need, raised their children. Times are changing.

I don't believe he would not play nice but who knows.

Right now, he is agreeing to everything. Not entering into any discussion, just saying "give me the papers and I'll sign them".

I understand that he still wishes to remain married - I don't wish to.

I do however, want to get my financial things in order - legally.
 
Thanks Hawk.

I truly appreciate Mess's advice as do I everyone's advice, the one comment just took me back a little.

We are amicable. He is willing to sign whatever it is I need to have signed.

There is no chance he could get spousal support from me - he makes more than I. And I don't want it from him. I simply want what I put in and half the equity.

We plan on doing it all ourselves, I just don't want it to take forever.

I did do up our Financial agreement (what I thought was done quite well), but don't want to miss anything.

Is there anywhere that tells the steps to take, the order to do things in?

When it's time to head to a lawyer - I want it all in order, needing perhaps a few changes, and a notarization. Finding a good lawyer is going to be a challenge - know any in the North of Toronto area?

I'm just feeling so overwhelmed right now.

And no, not a chance I will ever do this again ;) Should have listened to my gut the first time.
 
katc said:
I'm getting the feeling that my original down payment on the home we currently share is to be split 50/50. THAT was not accumulated during our marriage - I had that before I even knew him.
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I'm curious. If the situation were reversed, what would you do? If your soon to be ex husband had a fully paid for home and substantial savings and a pension, and you had worked as a waitress, were in debt with no savings and had put a lot of labour into the house, would you walk away? If another woman chose to seek her share of the matrimonial home would you condemn her? Is this a judgement you make for everyone, or just a rule for you?

While you may find my comments offensive, if you cannot stand to hear them you will fall apart under cross examination in court, which is what you are setting yourself up for, in addition to paying your ex's legal costs. This forum is a place where your arguments will be challenged, for free, hopefully saving the cost and humilation of losing in the courtroom.

If your ex is even willing to listen to an offer to leave with less than 50% of the matrimonial home, he is being reasonable and generous. What are you willing to be in return? That is the heart of negotiation. If you walk into the negotiating room as a hardass, when you have no legal foundation to back up your stance, you are not going to get the settlement you want.
 
Mess said:
While you may find my comments offensive, if you cannot stand to hear them you will fall apart under cross examination in court, which is what you are setting yourself up for, in addition to paying your ex's legal costs. This forum is a place where your arguments will be challenged, for free, hopefully saving the cost and humilation of losing in the courtroom.
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A wise and learned observation in general that very few on this message forum truly understand.
 
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