Family Law Rules/CS/SS

[respondent]

I am looking into my experience for Child/Spousal support, and find that system is extremely inefficient.

Let's consider hypothetical example:
1. It is July 1st, year 2019, you just exchanged NOA for 2018. Two people working on T4, there is single source of income. Your entire income is reported on line 15000. In order to establish or adjust CS/SS payments, if you are on non speaking terms with your ex you'd have to hire a lawyer, calculate Divorce Mate, make a motion, get a court date somewhere 8 months away, attend hearing etc. The judge would look at the attached DM, and will point to midrange SS scenario.
You then submit to CRA your spousal support payments receipt for tax deductions.
This process would cost around 15k for each side in legal fees, and countless amount of time wasted.
2. It is July 1st year 2020. Repeat steps in #1
3. It is July 1st year 2021. Repeat steps in #1
...
4. It is July 1st year 2040. Repeat steps in #1

It costs you tons of money every year even if you would be filing new 14B on consent.

There are few factors affecting the support calculations:
1. Your/ex age.
2. Children age and residency.
3. Your/ex income on line 15000.

However, exactly same facts are used for Child Tax Benefits, and therefore CRA does have this info and could automatically adjust the support payments either via monthly payments or once a year tax return process.

I would suspect both payor and receiver would prefer system doing it for them automatically (and for free), and would go to court only in hard cases i.e. when ex hides income, runs a corporation etc. where you can't establish true line 15000.

Am I missing something?

 

[iona6656]

Yes. you are missing something.

If you have an order from the court- it typically provides for adjustment of CS.

Why would the CRA be involved in adjusting the payment.

If the other party doesn't follow the order- then yes, there's no way around going back to court to get CS adjusted. But I was forced to do that- I would be asking the court for full indemnification of any legal fees.

 

[respondent]

Yes. you are missing something.

If you have an order from the court- it typically provides for adjustment of CS.

Why would the CRA be involved in adjusting the payment.

If the other party doesn't follow the order- then yes, there's no way around going back to court to get CS adjusted. But I was forced to do that- I would be asking the court for full indemnification of any legal fees.

In my real case (not the hypothetical above) court order had an adjustment statement - the opposing party just ignores it. So yes, it will end up with motion, but from what I hear good luck on recovering even 50% of the legal costs.

At the same moment CRA does know your full income. Does know who kids live with. I don't see a need for legal system here.

 

[rockscan]

So they ignored the timeline, file a motion and get it moving and ask for a repayment of the overpayment if funds. That happens too. Judges do order someone to repay money they received incorrectly.

Do it without a lawyer and save your fees. You may get some money back because they didn’t adhere to the order or you may not but in the end you stop paying funds to her.

 

[respondent]

So they ignored the timeline, file a motion and get it moving and ask for a repayment of the overpayment if funds. That happens too. Judges do order someone to repay money they received incorrectly.

Do it without a lawyer and save your fees. You may get some money back because they didn�t adhere to the order or you may not but in the end you stop paying funds to her.

I am doing it. I just wish I didn't have to. If CRA is capable calculating the UCCB and they have online calculator for the CS, they know who kids lived with and your line 150 in NOA - it wouldn't be a rocket science to calculate the CS as well without spending court time. And note it would benefit both payor and receiver, since they wouldn't have to pay their lawyers at least for this.

 

[rockscan]

I am doing it. I just wish I didn't have to. If CRA is capable calculating the UCCB and they have online calculator for the CS, they know who kids lived with and your line 150 in NOA - it wouldn't be a rocket science to calculate the CS as well without spending court time. And note it would benefit both payor and receiver, since they wouldn't have to pay their lawyers at least for this.

CRA is not the family court and your ex doesn’t have to do what they say.

Also, CS is not listed for taxes and your order may outline who is eligible for the UCCB.

 

[respondent]

CRA is not the family court and your ex doesn�t have to do what they say.

Also, CS is not listed for taxes and your order may outline who is eligible for the UCCB.

The CS still has to be listed for taxes. It won't be tax deductible, but you still show it on your tax return.
You don't go to court over child tax benefits - the CS is a fixed table amount, could've easily be done there in same place, at least for those where income imputation isn't required, they CRA would send you instead of child tax benefit payment the CS as well. Everything done on time, no lawyers involved, no courts.

 

[respondent]

CRA is not the family court and your ex doesn�t have to do what they say.

Also, CS is not listed for taxes and your order may outline who is eligible for the UCCB.

The CS still has to be listed for taxes. It won't be tax deductible, but you still show it on your tax return.
You don't go to court over child tax benefits - the CS is a fixed table amount, could've easily be done there in same place, at least for those where income imputation isn't required, they CRA would send you instead of child tax benefit payment the CS as well. Everything done on time, no lawyers involved, no courts, no costs. All adjustments even minor automatically considered.

 

[rockscan]

The CS still has to be listed for taxes. It won't be tax deductible, but you still show it on your tax return.
You don't go to court over child tax benefits - the CS is a fixed table amount, could've easily be done there in same place, at least for those where income imputation isn't required, they CRA would send you instead of child tax benefit payment the CS as well. Everything done on time, no lawyers involved, no courts, no costs. All adjustments even minor automatically considered.

No you don’t have to report child support. It’s not considered income and it’s not tax deductible.

 

[respondent]

No you don�t have to report child support. It�s not considered income and it�s not tax deductible.

has nothing to do with being tax deductible. CRA now checks that you pay your child support and allows your spousal support tax deduction only if you prove them that you paid in full your child support, in other words they already to extent duplicate FRO function:

Enter on line 22000 of your tax return the child support payments you made between January 1 of the year and the date the election was accepted, and the support payments you made (during the year) for a spouse or common-law partner if all of the child support for 2021 and previous years is fully paid.



https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-ag...ed-deductible-payer-taxable-recipient-12.html

 

[rockscan]

Thats for agreements prior to 1997. It’s clear at the bottom:

You have told us:
you paid or received child support and support for a spouse or common-law partner
the court order or written agreement was made before May 1997
the payer and the recipient chose to make the child support payments not taxable or deductible by sending Form T1157, Election for Child Support Payments

CRA does not nor do they have the resources to track whether support is paid or not. You want them to do what the courts do and it won’t happen.

 

[respondent]

Thats for agreements prior to 1997. It�s clear at the bottom:



CRA does not nor do they have the resources to track whether support is paid or not. You want them to do what the courts do and it won�t happen.

while there are special rules for pre 1997, you clearly have to report both now:

If you are claiming deductible support payments, enter on line 21999 of your tax return the total amount of support payments you paid under a court orders or written agreements. This includes any non-deductible child support payments you made.


https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-ag.../lines-21999-22000-support-payments-made.html

The reference for non deductible child support hints that they are talking about present, and not pre 1997.

 

[rockscan]

No you don’t have to report child support paid or owed. It’s irrelevant anymore for taxes. That link you shared is not the guide or the rules it’s simply a helper item for people who have orders dating back to when cs was taxable/deductible. It was done that way to stop persecuting parents who received child support. Much like it does not impact social assistance or other government funding.

CRA has nothing to do with family court so stop thinking it can be a help. The two are separate.

 

[respondent]

No you don�t have to report child support paid or owed. It�s irrelevant anymore for taxes. That link you shared is not the guide or the rules it�s simply a helper item for people who have orders dating back to when cs was taxable/deductible. It was done that way to stop persecuting parents who received child support. Much like it does not impact social assistance or other government funding.

CRA has nothing to do with family court so stop thinking it can be a help. The two are separate.

They do ask for your child support payment. Start from form 1158 for example - that one clearly says:
Your order or agreement was made after April 1997
https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/cra-arc/formspubs/pbg/t1158/t1158-21e.pdf

and then go to a second page - they ask you for both child and spousal support.

Then when you do your taxes, CRA wants to ensure you followed your agreement. If you had to pay $70 in child support and $30 in spousal support for the year, and paid $80, you would get tax deduction on $10 only. If you call CRA they will tell you the same thing.

 

[rockscan]

Family Law Rules/CS/SS

Oh my god. There is a lot about taxes that is irrelevant or unnecessary that is a waste of reporting. Like medical expenses. Unless your expenses are a specific percent of your income you don’t get a deduction so there’s no point in claiming them. Same with receipts for work shit that isn’t eligible. Or too many charitable donations. Why would you waste your time claiming something that has zero impact on your taxes. Child support DOES NOT IMPACT YOUR TAXES IN ANY WAY. You are wasting your time filling it out. It doesn’t matter if the guide tells you HOW to fill it out, if it is IRRELEVANT then there is no need to actually put it in there.

CRA doesnt give a crap if you follow your agreement. They don’t have anything on file or enough people to enforce anything. They are not the family court. You could claim shit on your taxes and the only way they would know it is wrong is if they audited you.

 

[respondent]

Oh my god. There is a lot about taxes that is irrelevant or unnecessary that is a waste of reporting. Like medical expenses. Unless your expenses are a specific percent of your income you don�t get a deduction so there�s no point in claiming them. Same with receipts for work shit that isn�t eligible. Or too many charitable donations. Why would you waste your time claiming something that has zero impact on your taxes. Child support DOES NOT IMPACT YOUR TAXES IN ANY WAY. You are wasting your time filling it out. It doesn�t matter if the guide tells you HOW to fill it out, if it is IRRELEVANT then there is no need to actually put it in there.

CRA doesnt give a crap if you follow your agreement. They don�t have anything ok file or enough people to enforce anything. They are not the family court. You could claim shit on your taxes and the only way they would know it is wrong is if they audited you.

I have told the CRA exactly this - the CS doesn't influence my taxes, why you asking me to report it and not just report it, but to provide you proof of payments - they said they want to control if I paid it. I told them there is a FRO for this, and stop duplicating them, but CRA insisted it is their role. Which has triggered this topic in a first place - both FRO and CRA now control your CS payments.

 

[rockscan]

I have told the CRA exactly this - the CS doesn't influence my taxes, why you asking me to report it and not just report it, but to provide you proof of payments - they said they want to control if I paid it. I told them there is a FRO for this, and stop duplicating them, but CRA insisted it is their role. Which has triggered this topic in a first place - both FRO and CRA now control your CS payments.

No they don’t and if they are telling you that it’s because you mixed something up. You report spousal alone and if they have questions you provide your order. There should be no interaction with CRA other than filing your taxes.

I have a feeling you misunderstood something or told them something incorrect leading to their response.

 

[respondent]

No they don�t and if they are telling you that it�s because you mixed something up. You report spousal alone and if they have questions you provide your order. There should be no interaction with CRA other than filing your taxes.

I have a feeling you misunderstood something or told them something incorrect leading to their response.

there is nothing incorrect to tell - you upload them a court order with your CS/SS, and them coming asking you about your CS payment. I am talking to CRA more often than to my lawyer now (at least CRA doesn't charge...). My case with CRA has been several time escalated, reviewed and so on - they came back with the verdict - do report both CS and SS, as they want to match it against the court order.
In the form 1158 they clearly ask for your child support payment if court order was made after 1997, I did put a link. Not sure what here to argue about, it is official form from CRA

 

[rockscan]

there is nothing incorrect to tell - you upload them a court order with your CS/SS, and them coming asking you about your CS payment. I am talking to CRA more often than to my lawyer now (at least CRA doesn't charge...). My case with CRA has been several time escalated, reviewed and so on - they came back with the verdict - do report both CS and SS, as they want to match it against the court order.
In the form 1158 they clearly ask for your child support payment if court order was made after 1997, I did put a link. Not sure what here to argue about, it is official form from CRA

Theres obviously more to your case then which requires all of this.

 

[respondent]

Theres obviously more to your case then which requires all of this.

I obviously can't read CRA employees minds, but they ask only about CS/SS and nothing else. My prior income taxes were no different than when I didn't have this order, I am on a T4, no cheating on business expenses, non existing subcontracts and so on. And if I read their instructions on the canada web, they clearly ask for both CS and SS reporting, so I don't have reason not to believe them.