Extraordinary Expenses ? for clarity for FMEP

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Becca

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Hi all, I'm a lurker these days as I've been divorced now for 3 years.

My problem is this: When we were married, our son played soccer and hockey. At the time of our separation, he was 7 and had been playing both for 2 years. Now, our son has turned into a very gifted player and is on a Rep team. His coaches have written a letter stating his talent, and how the program develops his skating, as well as power skating classes, etc. They stated (as I also believe) that this talent will help him get a post-secondary scholarship of some sort, not to mention it being a sort of anti-drug plan to get him through high school :)

My ex will not pay more than $300 towards hockey. Hockey costs run anywhere from $2500-3500/yr (tournaments and classes). I have been paying these costs in their entirety (minus the $300) for the past few years. I'm tired of it.

I earn $60K/yr and ex earns $80K. I'm going to court in an attempt to get him to help with additional funds. My belief, is that our son would be doing the same things he's doing now, if we were to have remained married.

Thoughts??

Our daughter is only 7 but loves her art classes and is damn good at them. They are $250 for 11 weeks and she does these 2x a year, plus plays soccer.

I have our CS set up with FMEP and they said they need very specific 'orders' for these extraordinary expenses in order to enforce them.

I'm not asking for anything unreasonable. But I do have the kids 100% of the time - they see their dad 5 weekends a year (his choice) and he definitely is not strapped for cash.

I would like to hear any suggestions you have with what worked and what you suggest. We both have to meet with a family justice first, to see if we can work things out.

HELP?
 
Its below table CS, but that will hopefully be fixed in this proceedings.

I've done a bit more digging on these boards and I'm very okay with paying all smaller registrations as I agree - its what CS should cover.

But hockey especially drains me. We live in a smaller city and have to travel for games, not just tournaments. My son is a hockey fanatic - he lives it. He's outside everyday practicing and at 12 still has the little boy dreams of playing in the NHL.....who am I to quash those dreams, especially when his parents (plural) can afford to pay for it?

The past 3 years, I have paid for 100% of his hockey. Included in this is a $600 hockey camp that I agree, is expensive - but it was a choice I made to allow him to go and I even said to his dad that "this is more than his basic needs, but it does help him grow as a player and if you can even contribute $50 or 100 towards it it would be appreciated" Nothing. So, I've paid the full amounts 3 years in a row.

I pay for their $200 birthday parties @ bowling, paintball, etc. Don't ask for help with any field trips, even their gear/equipment I have been buying on my own.

I also read that if a pattern of spending was happening before the marriage breakdown, it has a higher chance of being approved to continue. Well, it was and I have continued it on my own.....and I am tired of being the only one contributing - its draining me financially.

Thanks for the reply - any other feedback is appreciated.
 
That stuff you should be paying by CS ie birthday parties and field trips. That's what it is for.

You are choosing to put him into these specialty camps and then asking for help after the fact. That is not how section 7 works. Both parties need to discuss and agree.

If you can get the full table and leave it at that will that not be enough to add to the pot?


It is a choice your family is making to push him to excel at hockey. That is wonderful of you and he will love you for it.

I'm sorry I personally don't agree with your argument for section 7 expenses but I am very biased.

The law is one thing and what is fair may in fact be two different things. Sorry. JMO

Others will agree with you and some others won't.
 
Thanks for your input - I've read a lot of ugly stories on here and I am not trying to be one of them.

I mentioned that I pay for those other things on my own and do not ask for his portion towards them. The camp suggestion was simply to say 'here, this is what he's doing....if you are able to contribute then great'.

This guy doesn't even send his kids birthday cards, let alone gifts. From my reading of Sec 7, if the parents are financially able (which we are) then the children should be able to continue doing the same pattern of activities as they were before the marriage breakdown. I'm not asking for the moon here.....and a few dollars here and there, could very well save us big $ for post secondary if he got a scholarship. Not to mention, its just a good opportunity for him to develop as a leader/person.

This man does not struggle - and why should the I be one one to have to struggle financially just to keep things like this going?

Again, I appreciate your input - I have read your story and I don't envy your position. Its a tough one and I feel for you. But my ex cheated on me 4x and left our marriage after 11yrs and I feel the least we can do is try and keep our kids' lives somewhat content in this way. Especially since we can both afford to do it.

I guess we'll see what the Justice Counsellors say - doing that before we get a court date.
 
I agree with Karmaseeker's post.

Rep hockey is section 7, which means that it is extraordinary, which means he does not have to pay. It is not reasonable to force him to.

You are different parents, he does not want to spend the money on it, you do.

Hard to understand that he does not want to pay for it, but I agree that he has that choice.

Perhaps if he really understood that CS should not cover rep hockey, and that you actually will not sign the child up for it if their dad does not contribute, then he will change his mind.

Perhaps he is mad at you, is mad about paying CS, etc, and sees that you pay for rep hockey when he does not, so he has no incentive to contribute.
 
Thanks Bill - I guess what I have a problem with, is that he was a proud hockey dad when we were married and loved it when the other parents told him how he had a fantastic little hockey star.....and now that we're not married, he is sticking it to me.

I thought this article was interesting and shone a lot of light on what I'm looking at. It also states that if a child has an exceptional gift or talent it makes a difference. Why should the kids suffer when a marirage breaks down.

I would be completely understanding if one of us had a low income, or was struggling. That isn't the case her - and there are no other children of his to contend with.

Just shake my head that he doesn't care enough.....my son also has a Jr. Golf membership that he isn't expected to pay towards. There are alot of things HIS children get to do, that he doesn't contribute to. Hockey is just one of those things that was done for 2 years while we were married and I'm hoping that the court will see its not about me - its about our son.
 
Well I hope they rule against you.

Paying for rep level hockey should not be forced on someone. It should be a choice, including the right to change your mind.

It would be best if you let it go and recognize that you can't control him or his relationship with his son.
 
Thanks for taking the time to answer me and give me your feedback. I still tend to disagree with your position, but I guess that's why we all have different scenarios and mediators/courts can help us with all the facts. My son will play hockey whether his dad contributes or not - I will see that he does.

I did ask for your opinion though and I got it :)

Wish you all the best.
 
Thanks.

I do think he should pay for it, given what you told me. I just think it should be his choice, even if for the wrong reasons. Agree to disagree.

FYI, I pay for all my 3 kids sports, and go to every game and practice.
 
Its a sad scenario.....their dad never comes to see them and has never really been a hands on dad.

He's been below table CS for 4 years and I accepted it what it was - now I'm having it raised to what it should be - and I am NOT seeking retroactive CS....but I'd like help going forward with hockey.

Truly, I'm not being unreasonable....we'll see how it pans out. Its worth the effort on my end.

Good for you for helping with your kids sports and just as importantly, for being present AT their events. I'm sure it means everything to them.
 
fyi- be prepared to pay out $5,000 to $100,000 or more in legal fees to get your couple of hundred extra per month - that's if you get it as status quo is not in your favour.

Plus you will have the bonus of him hating you even more thus further causing a even bigger rift between him and your children.

This is the stuff that pushes people over the edge and financially ruins families. You keep saying how he can afford it. I am not going to get into the long argument of whether he can or can't but I will tell you that after tax and pay out to you - he is NOT as well off as you think he is.

We are looking at losing our home and having to end our relationship because the tables and section 7 make it impossible for my partner to survive. Add the debt into the mix for legal fees and we are hemorrhaging. How many months into the slow decline into oblivion? Only god knows.

So stand your ground and fight for hockey. Or except that others shouldn't pay for your choices. Heck, you could tell jr to go get a paper route and get him to contribute to this sport he loves so much thus teaching him responsibility and pride.
 
Thank you for your feedback Karma.....I'm actually representing myself and not trying to get some fancy lawyer to pull one over. I'll state my position and if it is denied, then so be it.

As for his feelings toward me, that isn't what this is about and its not something that can hurt me anymore.

Trust me, if it is seen as unfair or unjust it will be dropped. There won't be any long, drawn out war over this. His contributing is what is 'right' by his kids and if he doesn't and it isn't seen as something he should do based on our history, then that's that.

But you're right, my ex's 600/mo rent, no car payment, no other kids and $80K year income must put him right over the edge. I even helped furnish his basement suite when we split out of our joint account so that the kids could have proper beds/furniture. He walked away from the sale of our house with ALL debt paid and $50K in his pocket - we both did.

Just keep in mind please that just because you've had a bad experience, doesn't mean we're all that way.
 
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I don't think all experience are like mine. Mine is extreme.

I also think you are clearly a loving mother, present, polite and put the needs of your kids as top priority. I am not trying to be personal. I did warn you I was biased so just look at it as sparring practice for what you are going to get from opposition maybe.

Lots of people don't agree on these forums but it opens you up to potentialities you may face therefore they are useful.

I hope you find peace and happiness and get off the family court conveyor belt as fast as you possible can.
 
Update....just had our day in court. I was seeking help with extraordinary expenses for Hockey as my son made the rep team and has played for 6 years. The judge was not impressed with ex saying he didn't want to pay for rep - and that as his father, he should be proud that his son is talented and to nurture these gifts. As ex makes $97K/yr, it is hardly a 'hardship' to pay for rep hockey as opposed to house league and ordered him to pay his share proporationate to our incomes.

This is a HUGE relief to me, as I've been paying 100% of these costs for the past 3yrs. Our son has refused to speak with his dad as his dad told him before that he won't support his hockey. Its not pretty between them (ds is 12 years old).

I just wanted to tell others, not to let people tell you what to do/not to do. This board is to ask/offer advice/opinions/solutions, but it is not the be all-end all. If you are not seeking assistance maliciously or vindictively, and its in the best interest of the children - the judges will listen to you. State your case, move forward.

I didn't have counsel - I represented myself and I'm impressed with how civilian-friendly the family courts are.

Good luck to all - I just wanted to share that my deadbeat is now a forced-non-deadbeat.

Thanks
 
Becca is right. S.7 expenses are not expenses that the payor has a choice to pay. They are expenses that are beyond what is paid in table s.3 support. The court will look at how reasonable the expense is in terms of the parents' ability to pay. Clearly , the payor and payee's combined incomes can afford this. The boy also did it prior to the marriage breakdown -- another reason to continue. The fact that mother has paid for several years adds to her credibility. I have to agree that s.7 expenses should be discussed in advance but they are not to be unreasonably withheld either. Paid proportionately too but in this case incomes are fairly equal. Becca could offer to split. Would also depend on what obligations father/payor has in new family, ie. new kids to support?
 
Becca
Now go get your child support variation. There is no such b.s. as status quo in child support. Payor has a obligation to the children to pay and an obligation to the mother to update her on increased income. Don't have children if you don't want to pay child support.
 
Becca said:
Update....just had our day in court. I was seeking help with extraordinary expenses for Hockey as my son made the rep team and has played for 6 years. The judge was not impressed with ex saying he didn't want to pay for rep - and that as his father, he should be proud that his son is talented and to nurture these gifts. As ex makes $97K/yr, it is hardly a 'hardship' to pay for rep hockey as opposed to house league and ordered him to pay his share proporationate to our incomes.

This is a HUGE relief to me, as I've been paying 100% of these costs for the past 3yrs. Our son has refused to speak with his dad as his dad told him before that he won't support his hockey. Its not pretty between them (ds is 12 years old).

I just wanted to tell others, not to let people tell you what to do/not to do. This board is to ask/offer advice/opinions/solutions, but it is not the be all-end all. If you are not seeking assistance maliciously or vindictively, and its in the best interest of the children - the judges will listen to you. State your case, move forward.

I didn't have counsel - I represented myself and I'm impressed with how civilian-friendly the family courts are.

Good luck to all - I just wanted to share that my deadbeat is now a forced-non-deadbeat.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Did "his proportionate share" include his share of equipment as well? Did the judge specify registration fees, tournament costs, team costs, AND equipment?

Thanks
 
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