Extra Ordinary Expenses
- Thread starter Wyntermcd
- Start date
Proportionate share is how the $s are calculated.
Your Income + Ex's Income = Total Income.
Your Income / Total Income = Your proportionate share.
As for what qualifies S7, that is a highly contested issue.
Uncovered medical/dental expenses (over $100), daycare (provided CP is working) and some extra curricular activities. Generally speaking, the sports and activities your children enjoyed when you were together should be considered under S7.
Rioe
Well-known member
Would you have signed up for and paid for the activity without much thought when the marriage was intact?
Or would you have had to have a serious discussion and save for the activity, or made sacrifices to give the child the opportunity?
It's the difference between paying for the school field trip to the local museum, and the senior trip out of the country for a week. The difference between house league hockey and serious competitive hockey. The rented musical instrument and simple music lessons for a hobby, vs the expensive, quality instrument with a reputed instructor for the prodigy.
Or would you have had to have a serious discussion and save for the activity, or made sacrifices to give the child the opportunity?
It's the difference between paying for the school field trip to the local museum, and the senior trip out of the country for a week. The difference between house league hockey and serious competitive hockey. The rented musical instrument and simple music lessons for a hobby, vs the expensive, quality instrument with a reputed instructor for the prodigy.
I don't believe there is any such table. And remember, not all S7 expenses are "extraordinary expenses". Examples of S7 expenses which are not treated as extraordinary include child care, medical/dental costs about $100 not covered by insurance, and postsecondary education.
If you're talking about extracurricular expenses, I think you can ask yourself a series of questions:
1) Is the expense in question for something which will really benefit the child (an ongoing activity or sport which the child enjoys or excels at)?
2) Does it cost more than the CP could reasonably be expected to cover, given his/her income including child support? (i.e. if the CP earns $45K per year, pizza lunches aren't extraordinary but soccer camp might be. If the CP earns $100K per year, soccer camp might not be extraordinary either).
3) Is it an expense which I would have been willing to pay if we had remained married (i.e. is it something which would have been affordable and desirable if our incomes had been pooled) ?
If the answer to all three questions is yes, then I'd consider it a legitimate extraordinary expense. Whether or not the expense meets question 2 is the big question.
billm
New member
Extracurricular is not (necessarily) extraordinary.
When considering if a sport/activity is extraordinary, one must consider the COMBINED income of the the parents, as well as the total of all the extracurricular cost.
For example, we spend about $1k per child per year (3 kids) for extracurricular currently. Given that our combined incomes are about 140K, this is NOT extraordinary and not section 7 and is covered by CS (which includes the table CS for the custodial parent!).
In my case, I have shared custody and we pay offset CS, so we split the cost of non section 7 costs 50/50.
When considering if a sport/activity is extraordinary, one must consider the COMBINED income of the the parents, as well as the total of all the extracurricular cost.
For example, we spend about $1k per child per year (3 kids) for extracurricular currently. Given that our combined incomes are about 140K, this is NOT extraordinary and not section 7 and is covered by CS (which includes the table CS for the custodial parent!).
In my case, I have shared custody and we pay offset CS, so we split the cost of non section 7 costs 50/50.
There would probably be a lot less conflict if there was a table to help figure this out... But there is not.
Another consideration in determining S7 is not only a single cost of fees or a piece of equipment, but the accumulated cost, as billm pointed out.
For example, my S15's expenses for last hockey and soccer season totalled nearly $14,000 - over $1000 per month. Taken separately, the expenses are not thought of as S7 - $180 for hockey pants..... $150 for soccer cleats..... $350 for a hockey stick (of which S went through 7 last year alone).... $800 for skates..... etc.
When you look at the individual expenses alone, most seem reasonable for our incomes. When added together.... most probable S7.
(FYI - X will not willingly help pay for S7 expenses. I pay these on my own. At CC judge did mention that she would consider these expenses to be extraordinary in my case. I settled before trial and agreed to his not contributing so will not see his share for these. I do receive full table CS but it doesn't amount to the sports expenses per month - c'est la vie)
You know what I suggest? If you can't afford it then you ask the other parent to contribute. If they can't contribute then it is a no go. If you can afford it, then you can pay for it. Forget about section 7 definition blah blah blah...
We pay full guideline amount AND a whole slew of many other things. We can afford it. In fact, mom can easily afford the full amount herself too for these expenses. But we just pay it anyways. It is easier and it creates less opportunity for conflict.
I will probably be reamed out for this stance but only in family law do we afford things we cannot afford and then we fight about what the other parent could have or should have paid for. You don't typically buy a car or house you can't afford so the same should apply here.
We pay full guideline amount AND a whole slew of many other things. We can afford it. In fact, mom can easily afford the full amount herself too for these expenses. But we just pay it anyways. It is easier and it creates less opportunity for conflict.
I will probably be reamed out for this stance but only in family law do we afford things we cannot afford and then we fight about what the other parent could have or should have paid for. You don't typically buy a car or house you can't afford so the same should apply here.
I agree, Serene. If I couldn't afford those expenses on my own, S wouldn't be able to participate. Simple as that.
And on the other hand, just because X refuses to contribute, doesn't mean S doesn't get to participate because I won't pay the expenses on my own.
It would be nice if X would help out, but the fact that he doesn't isn't going to change the activities S participates in and loves.
This is in the best interests of my child.... not my bank account.
That's nuts.
FWB
New member
You beat me to this....well said. I mean $14,000 for Hockey for 1 kid, imagine it were 3 boys? I can see why a potential payor will be up in arms about this
OK...but we also try to make our kids understand that they won't always get what they want in life...those that don't learn that from a younger age, are the ones that grow up to be an entitlement burden
I don't know where you are buying the soccer cleats, but $150 is a lot for a pair, unless of course is buying one with Messi, Beckham, or Ronnaldo's name on it
Not by those of us that are able to reason and see that you do indeed have a valid point, and your analogy is appropriate for the discussions. I'll like to have my child in a top private school with me paying proportionally to income...will my ex subscribe to that? Hell to the nah
Just curious...have you considered less expensive sports for the kid? I mean there is Squash, ball hockey, volleyball, curling etc
Saw the movie...the nutjob with kidlet recently, hilarious it was. Recommend to parents when you have your kids
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I guess you buy cheap cleats. I don't. Have a look online. Quality men's cleats are expensive.
Why would I consider a less expensive sport for S? We are both quite happy with the sports he is in. I am not asking YOU to contribute, so I am not sure why you care.
He also plays basketball, track&field, and cross-country running. Those are less expensive sports. Satisfied?
I was trying to help the OP with their question, not asking for all your opinions on how I spend my money, thanks.
Important to note that Qrious. Thanks. My ex doesn't want to contribute even though his income is three times mine. Does she participate anyway? Yes, of course she does. At the cost of my retirement fund. Why? Because she has two parents that can afford it based out of their combined income. It isn't the child's fault the other parent would rather pay for his own activities over her's.
FWB
New member
Lets just put it like this...I know a lot about the game and the apparels than the average person. So your idea of "cheap" and mine are obviously different
Like most things in life, it's not always about the name. I also coach and ref the game by the way....played it all my life too.
I played all those too...got my scholarship via track&field actually, so yes they are a lot lot less expensive than the Hockey bandwagon.
Qrious...you are right though, it's your money and the only reason we are discussing this is because the other party doesn't concur with the costs
I am a big supporter of kids playing sports, I have said it numerous times, especially team sports....but money is a factor
Pursuinghappiness
New member
The one that always surprises me are the people that come on and complain about their CS obligation to the kids they have with their ex-spouse and yet despite their inability to afford it, have moved on to have more children with the new partner.
Sorry OP, off topic.
And about those cleats... you CAN get those cleats used or on sale... But some people like to pay full pin for stuff because it does things for their ego and head. And I don't mean to insinuate anything about anyone on here with that statement.
I like nice things to. I like our five kids to have nice things to. And they ALL have nice things. But often times, I don't pay the price to have these nice things. And even though our incomes could afford the very bestest cleats I still chose to not buy them.
I would encourage everyone to think of this: If they need the very best shoes to play a sport, then maybe forego the sport and afford the shoes. I suspect in too many instances the parents inject their importance on things attributed to the children's activities than is important to the child. Do you really think the kid would be challenged or hard done by to wear a cheaper cleat while playing whatever sport? Of course not.
I also have to wonder this: What is wrong with a kid working for some of these things? I often put up the money for a decent pair of shoes/pants, etc. and if the kid wants something else they work their hiney off to make up the difference to afford what they want. Sometimes they get tired in the process and decide its just not worth it and those $30 cleats will do just fine lol.
Less is more sometimes huh? Argue less, fight less, less conflict - and a better quality of life!
I like nice things to. I like our five kids to have nice things to. And they ALL have nice things. But often times, I don't pay the price to have these nice things. And even though our incomes could afford the very bestest cleats I still chose to not buy them.
I would encourage everyone to think of this: If they need the very best shoes to play a sport, then maybe forego the sport and afford the shoes. I suspect in too many instances the parents inject their importance on things attributed to the children's activities than is important to the child. Do you really think the kid would be challenged or hard done by to wear a cheaper cleat while playing whatever sport? Of course not.
I also have to wonder this: What is wrong with a kid working for some of these things? I often put up the money for a decent pair of shoes/pants, etc. and if the kid wants something else they work their hiney off to make up the difference to afford what they want. Sometimes they get tired in the process and decide its just not worth it and those $30 cleats will do just fine lol.
Less is more sometimes huh? Argue less, fight less, less conflict - and a better quality of life!
It is SO often I regret posting anything on this site.
When your child has had a bone broken from a slap shot because a piece of equipment he was wearing was not of good enough quality for the level of hockey he plays in, then talk to me about buying cheap or used stuff.
He has also broken bones in his foot playing soccer. I don't know if that was because of cheap shoes, but I choose to buy good shoes for S as he plays elite level soccer (not as elite as FWB has played, I am sure). He will wear what I buy him.
It's not about the brand name, it's about the quality and safety level of equipment... but thanks for your armchair analysis of my motives anyway.
Sorry your thread has been derailed, OP.
Qrouis - Don't regret posting on here. You need not justify what you spend, where or how. The point of this forum is to consider what others can add to a particular situation - They may have different ways of viewing things that you haven't considered. Take what opinions/thoughts/positions you want and leave the rest.
I will push my point further to make myself clear: We ARE entitled to pay less towards CS and a slew of other things. We pay it anyways because it lends to our quality of life overall. Honestly, the less I have to do with ex wifey the better. If she were rational, over the marriage, less silly (I'm being nice here lol) then things would be different. But they aren't. So if you feel good about your expensive cleats and sports that kids break bones in so be it. We don't have to agree. Just read and listen to what others have to say and THEN make an informed decision.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. But if you post your position on a forum be prepared to hear different views on the same situation. My mother always told me: There are more ways to get to the same end than just YOUR way
I will push my point further to make myself clear: We ARE entitled to pay less towards CS and a slew of other things. We pay it anyways because it lends to our quality of life overall. Honestly, the less I have to do with ex wifey the better. If she were rational, over the marriage, less silly (I'm being nice here lol) then things would be different. But they aren't. So if you feel good about your expensive cleats and sports that kids break bones in so be it. We don't have to agree. Just read and listen to what others have to say and THEN make an informed decision.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. But if you post your position on a forum be prepared to hear different views on the same situation. My mother always told me: There are more ways to get to the same end than just YOUR way