ethics of lawyers

thanks for the positive vibes (sarcasm). so i have an ex who is very financially well off. bought and sold 5 properties in the past 3 years, drives a 100k vehicle and just recently purchased another 50k vehicle for his new wife. doesnt pay child support, lies in court documents, doesnt provide financial disclosure as required by law in over 2.5 years and you guys dont think it will favourable for me at CC. WHERE IS Justice?
 
Victorviola said:
you guys dont think it will favourable for me at CC. WHERE IS Justice?
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You have misunderstood slightly. The CC won't be favourable but it will not be unfavourable either. Substantial orders are rarely made at a CC. Nothing much will happen beyond orders for disclosure.

Cost orders also rarely come from a CC because there is no "winner" or "loser", so how can costs be ascertained?

I'm actually amazed that you got a court date for June 9th. I would strongly expect that you will not actually be heard on that date. The courts have to deal with urgent custody matters, and your case is neither urgent nor a custody matter.
 
Ex stopped paying child support for last 3 months due to covid. In nov 2019 he agreed to pay CS of $500 a month, but stopped paying in march, he works IT and has not been laid off, his lawyer says he has to file his taxes for 2019 prior to app,ting for cerb, what a joke, I had a CC scheduled for early June his lawyer already appealed it, so I have 2 questions,
1. I've been fighting for a CC for over 2 years, he plays games, how do I get a cc date to stick? Delay, excuses etc.
2. Should I make an offer before CC?
I know he was making over 200k since 2013 so I would like his income imputed at that at a minimum. I have evidence supporting his income FYI.
 
You need to get another lawyer... one who isn't hiding behind writing letters. You know any date you arrange for a conference will be rescheduled over and over again.

(Btw people can receive CERB without having had their 2019 taxes filed. The government has extended deadline to file taxes.)

Case conference = tool to delay & increase your legal bill
Letters = tools to delay & increase your legal bill

For a start, look on this forum for advice on selecting and managing lawyer you retain.
 
Case conference = tool to delay & increase your legal bill
Letters = tools to delay & increase your legal bill
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I'm going to respectfully temper Arabian on this. There are times where conferences and letters are appropriate, but they cannot be the only tool in a lawyer's belt. The absolute "conferences/letters always a waste of money" is not true.

Due to COVID-19 it's NOT business as usual with the courts or enforcement agencies. Normally a failure to pay support would be met with enforcement action by FRO (or other provincial enforcement agencies). However, these are strange times which limit what lawyers can do. Letters and conferences might be the only options while we wait for the world to resume.

However, if your lawyer cannot give you a satisfactory answer on his/strategy, it may be time to seek a second professional opinion.

This is a useful board, but keep in mind no poster on here can know the facts of your case like your lawyer does. They have not read the court file, the correspondence, etc. The devil is in the details, and knowing a few additional facts may radically change the prudent course of action.
 
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You do have good points Kinso.

My comments are specific to this poster: 30k has gotten her nowhere (prior to CoVid-19).

Now she has plenty of time to lawyer shop. She should have copies of all of her lawyer's letters, documents, particularly after spending that sort of money. These documents can be turned over to new lawyer who then can get up-to-speed on the time-wasting of current lawyer....

"Letters and conferences" are likely the only source of income lawyers can bill for right now is all. I wonder why the 30k lawyer hasn't filed anything yet? Or have they? I agree, we certainly don't know all of the facts.
 
30k for letters alone would be insane. There is something here that doesn't smell right. OP, I think a second opinion would be a good investment, see if you can find a lawyer to review your file and give their thoughts on the strategy taken to date.

If you find a better lawyer, you may want to have the first lawyer's accounts assessed. In this process the lawyer has to justify their bills to an assessment officer of the Superior Court.
 
good advice Kinso. There have been many people on this forum over the years who had successfully had their lawyer's bills assessed and received court-ordered reimbursement.

I was very fortunate over the years as I had excellent legal counsel. I received a detailed monthly bill so I always knew where I stood in-so-far as what I was billed for.
 
Account assessments are a pain in the ass from the lawyer's perspective (only had to do it twice). However, the process exists for a reason and a lawyer should be able to justify their accounts.

Keep in mind the assessment process is a court action, and if the lawyer is successful you can be ordered to pay their costs for the assessment. It's not something to do recklessly, but it is an option.
 
@ Kinso
Questions.

Can a family law practitioner make an arrangement to cancel or refund fees based on success?

If shown to be less than competent (blatant errors and false statements proven) how does one approach having fees reduced or refunded?

Do lawyers agree to charge fees only if they succeed in a cost award?
 
Can a family law practitioner make an arrangement to cancel or refund fees based on success?
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No. There are a few problems with this.

1. There is seldom 'success' in family court. Good legal strategy is more akin to breaking the fall rather than 'winning'. I often tell my clients no one wins in family court. With proper advice and strategy one can lose less. There is an exception for situations where one person is completely unreasonable (total parenting time denial when not warranted, refusal to pay basic support, reasonable equalization positions...etc.). Outside of this, many situations do not lend themselves to a 'win/loss' model.

Related, who gets to define success? Many clients may feel they were not successful when an objective analysis might say they were. This is because family court isn't really about winning or vindication, but taking one home and splitting it into two... there is almost always the sense of loss in this process.

2. Contingency fees are banned in family law matters (s.28.1(3) of the Solicitors Act). Your proposal could fall into this category.

3. No professional would subscribe to a model with only downside risk. Nor should they. Even if we could define success in family law, then lawyers should get an upside if they succeed if there is a downside when they lose. Taking a greater percentage of the family wealth because the outcome was favorable doesn't seem ethical.

False statements and errors by a lawyer may or may not warrant a fee reduction. More details are required. If a lawyer lied to the court, and it was clear they knew they were lying (and not just accepting their client's narrative), this might be a matter for the law society to review. A lawyer could get their fees reduced by an assessment officer, but only the client can request an assessment.
 
Kinso said:
No. There are a few problems with this.

1. There is seldom 'success' in family court. Good legal strategy is more akin to breaking the fall rather than 'winning'. I often tell my clients no one wins in family court. With proper advice and strategy one can lose less. There is an exception for situations where one person is completely unreasonable (total parenting time denial when not warranted, refusal to pay basic support, reasonable equalization positions...etc.). Outside of this, many situations do not lend themselves to a 'win/loss' model.

Related, who gets to define success? Many clients may feel they were not successful when an objective analysis might say they were. This is because family court isn't really about winning or vindication, but taking one home and splitting it into two... there is almost always the sense of loss in this process.

2. Contingency fees are banned in family law matters (s.28.1(3) of the Solicitors Act). Your proposal could fall into this category.

3. No professional would subscribe to a model with only downside risk. Nor should they. Even if we could define success in family law, then lawyers should get an upside if they succeed if there is a downside when they lose. Taking a greater percentage of the family wealth because the outcome was favorable doesn't seem ethical.

False statements and errors by a lawyer may or may not warrant a fee reduction. More details are required. If a lawyer lied to the court, and it was clear they knew they were lying (and not just accepting their client's narrative), this might be a matter for the law society to review. A lawyer could get their fees reduced by an assessment officer, but only the client can request an assessment.
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1. Cost awards are assessed by the judge if no agreement between the parties?

2. Unwritten contingency fees happen I am pretty sure.

3. Submitting an inflated claim based on a known falsehood? That the judge corrects more than once? Unethical certainly, overzealous and damaging. No foul.
 
Cost awards are different than fees. There are specialized appointees to do the fee assessments if needed.

I'm sure unwritten contingency fees happen, but it's unethical. (Note, contingency fees means a percentage of recovery, deferred fees are a distinct thing)
 
Kinso said:
Cost awards are different than fees. There are specialized appointees to do the fee assessments if needed.

I'm sure unwritten contingency fees happen, but it's unethical. (Note, contingency fees means a percentage of recovery, deferred fees are a distinct thing)
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Some will adjust fees based on cost award
Modified contingency
 
Some will adjust fees based on cost award
Modified contingency
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Sorta, but without more details I cannot say if it's ethical or not. It certainly approaches the grey line.

I would not support a business model where my revenue is contingent.
 
My husband demanded a credit for an appointment and time spent drafting an offer which didn’t go out. He was adamant that he not be charged as he had to go back and do a new one as it was out of date. The lawyer agreed.

This is why a retainer agreement is so important and why it is just as important for the client to follow the agreement and be on top of things. If your lawyer does not provide a retainer agreement and also does not provide a statement of account after doing work or monthly, run to a new lawyer. A retainer agreement is a contract between you both and clearly outlines what you are paying for.

Many clients make a number of calls, put additional demands on their lawyers and have unrealistic expectations which increases bills. Best advice is to educate yourself on the process, write down all you questions before an appointment, always ask worst and best case scenario, always ask what their timelines are (i.e. when should I expect to see a copy of the documents filed) etc. that avoids having to call repeatedly asking where the files are.

Be smart. There are unethical lawyers but you can manage that by being aware and knowledgeable. NEVER EVER ignore your file or go the opposite direction and bug your lawyer daily.
 
With the tech tools available online there is no reason that a client portal could not be implemented to allow complete account visibility not to mention secure file sharing. If your investment advisor charged fees willy nilly you would have an aneurysm. Or a contractor. Or a dog walker. I suggested this many times over the years and was scoffed at. Maybe should hire some html geeks and build a service.

Why would anyone have to duplicate a file management and billing system? Ridiculous. Especially when you are trying to stay sane and maybe raise kids in legal mayhem.

The murkier the waters the better it seems. Family Law in particular because it is so emotional is prone to issues.

Yes there are many excellent, reputable and dare I say honest lawyers. They would welcome transparency I would like to think.
 
Many clients make a number of calls, put additional demands on their lawyers and have unrealistic expectations which increases bills. Best advice is to educate yourself on the process, write down all you questions before an appointment, always ask worst and best case scenario, always ask what their timelines are (i.e. when should I expect to see a copy of the documents filed) etc. that avoids having to call repeatedly asking where the files are.
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Solid advice. I love it when a client comes in with a list of questions and we can have a focused meeting addressing their concerns rather than 10 interruptions a day (it has happened) for 10 questions I have to answer in piecemeal.

With the tech tools available online there is no reason that a client portal could not be implemented to allow complete account visibility not to mention secure file sharing. If your investment advisor charged fees willy nilly you would have an aneurysm. Or a contractor. Or a dog walker. I suggested this many times over the years and was scoffed at. Maybe should hire some html geeks and build a service.
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I would love an 'off the shelf' or cloud based product like this which worked well. What does exist is cumbersome and takes more time to manage than it saves.
 
Off the shelf is unicorn ware
But you could make a real killing if you designed this and rolled it out
Must be something in play already
 
Hello folks I need some advice. Is an emergency case conference worth my time and money even with all the pandemic chaos going on or should I wait for a regular case conference? My lawyer says we can proceed with this as my ex has stopped paying child support and owes thousands in arrears with very limited disclosure provided in the last 2.5 years. I spoke for 3 minutes with my lawyer and didn't have the chance to even ask my questions. He seemed annoyed that i expect something after 2.5 years. So frustrated right now. I need to make a decision over the next day or two. My ex will not agree to anything and will claim he is not working due to pandemic. All lies. Thoughts? advice please.
 
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