Ending spousal support

B

Baffled_Dad

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What are my chances of trying to get SS reduced to an end date or stopped? Was married under 17 years. Kids are adults. I have been paying SS almost 6 years. She has been back in the work force 7 to 8 years. Her wage is $20/hour at about 40K/year plus. My yearly income is 95K She has her own home pretty much mortgage free after divorce settlement. When does a means of self suffiency come into play here?
 
I just skimmed over previous threads of yours. You posted in Spring of 2014 that you were going to go for a review. You had mentioned your lawyer was going to have her income imputed to cover the 2 months she takes off each year.

What happened with the review? Or did you not have a review mentioned in your divorce agreement?

Self-sufficiency is only one of many factors that are considered with SS.
 
I knew you were going to answer first. Yes, it's in my agreement as for the review. I was told to wait another year which would be this fall. What are the many factors for self suffiency? What do they look at?
 
Each and every case is judged independently. In my situation, for example, I was self-sufficient yet my ex's income continues to be much greater than mine. Self-sufficiency in itself is a vague term.

You might find this article to be of interest:

New York | Merchant Law Group LLP

Keep in mind that many issues are weighed at the time of review. If your ex received a substantial property settlement that is considered as she has the wherewithal to have a roof over her head. Your ex's age and length of marriage is bordering on "rule of 65" which would have entitled her to indefinite support. Length of time since your children ceased being children of the marriage. Did your wife's time of unemployment (married or living common law) impact her career? If so and how much is considered. She has been employed for past 6 or 7 years but is she employed at the same level that she would have been had she not interrupted her career path? Not paying into CPP for 6 or 7 years is noted. Finally, the difference in your income at the time of separation and now.

If you do not pursue getting your ex's financials each and every year you may find yourself having to defend your decision.

Does your agreement say "income to reviewed yearly" or "financial information to be exchanged yearly"? Specific wording in your agreement is important as it may be an open door for you to have SS reviewed each and every year. Who knows?
 
The respondents obligation to provide SS shall be subject to variation on an annual basis commencing dated based upon mid point value in the SS ADVISORY GUIDLINES for his annual income in the preceding year and the applicants annual income for the preceding year. Each party shall be required to provide to the other party early documentary disclosure for that party's annual income for the preceding year commencing on such a date.
Both parties each retain their right to apply for a variation of the support revisions at set out in the minutes of settlement, in the event of a change in the condition, means, needs, health or other circumstances of either the applicant or the respondent that occurs subsequent to the date here of as well as pursuant to changes in they're annual income in accordance to the sub paragraph immediately preceding: which is what I mentioned above.
 
I also reread my minutes of settlement and it says no where about SS that it is based on compensatory or noncompensatory means.
 
My interpretation is that you pay mid-point range of SSAG based upon respective incomes. There is no provision for a review. There is no indication, however, that SS is indefinite.

Change of circumstances (condition, mean, needs etc) could possibly be when your children ceased being children of the marriage. When was that?

I would consider applying for a review of quantum and duration based on a change of circumstances as is your right.

Other opinions?
 
arabian said:
Each and every case is judged independently. In my situation, for example, I was self-sufficient yet my ex's income continues to be much greater than mine. Self-sufficiency in itself is a vague term.

You might find this article to be of interest:

New York | Merchant Law Group LLP

Keep in mind that many issues are weighed at the time of review. If your ex received a substantial property settlement that is considered as she has the wherewithal to have a roof over her head. Your ex's age and length of marriage is bordering on "rule of 65" which would have entitled her to indefinite support. Length of time since your children ceased being children of the marriage. Did your wife's time of unemployment (married or living common law) impact her career? If so and how much is considered. She has been employed for past 6 or 7 years but is she employed at the same level that she would have been had she not interrupted her career path? Not paying into CPP for 6 or 7 years is noted. Finally, the difference in your income at the time of separation and now.

If you do not pursue getting your ex's financials each and every year you may find yourself having to defend your decision.

Does your agreement say "income to reviewed yearly" or "financial information to be exchanged yearly"? Specific wording in your agreement is important as it may be an open door for you to have SS reviewed each and every year. Who knows?
Click to expand...

Yes, she received a substantial settlement. She was bought out of my pension, received RRSP's, a brand new jeep, and half the value of the matrimonial home which allowed her to purchase a home almost mortgage free. Not to mention I've paid her $126k in support payments until up to date. That's on a $95k/ year income. Her come is and should be between $40-42k if she shows up to work. Our children are 24 & 21 and haven't been in school for the last 3 years. We do not fall into the 65 rule either. We were 42 with 17 years of marriage. She stayed home for the 1st 12 years. Although worked a few years in between as supervisor.
 
SS is calculated based on your years together not just necessarily on years married (this may or may not make a difference).

Did your lawyer not tell you to review at time when children left home? It's a change of circumstances as is retirement or loss of job or health.
 
I went for a summary judgement 2 years ago and got it. They based our incomes off YEARS of marriage because she took too long to disclose info that we kept asking for mainly her income. This is still questionable. It lowered the SS a bit lower but not in line with her should be imputed income which I'm going for very soon. She's a very unreasonable human being at all levels. It's impossible to talk to her. Honestly how long do I have to pay and when does a judge say enough is enough?
 
Judges discretion unfortunately (at least here in Alberta).

Assuming you were together for 19 years (I'd go by that for worst-case scenerio), you have paid for 7? She received a respectable settlement and is self-sufficient. If I were you I would also request a recalculation/review and be credited for any overpayment. You can have income imputed for time going forward but I don't believe I have ever heard of retroactive imputing income for SS (doesn't mean it hasn't happened, I have just never read about it).

When it comes to money people are unreasonable and emotional. Just make sure you have the documents to back up your argument so judge's job is easy.

The big question is did your wife suffer economically by marriage ending? Many people suffer a distinct change of lifestyle as they no longer have 2 incomes paying for the lifestyle. If you had a proportionate split of matrimonial assets then the law seeks to have 2 people leave the marriage on equal footing financially. In recognition of those 19 years she would get a finite amount of money.

If you don't ask you don't get.
 
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What do u mean finite amount of money? Where does that come from?? SS??
Hell!! what if I told my place of employment that lays me off they can't stop paying me because I put 20 years of service so they have to keep paying me half or the duration of my employment?
 
Finite is a limited amount of money I suppose? I read it too fast. This whole subject stresses me out. I appreciate your answers.
 
Well the best thing to do is read recent court decisions on CanLii. What province are you in? There are differences. For example, in Alberta a judge can deviate from the SSAG without written reason but I don't believe a judge can do that in Ontario - written reason has to be provided. There are lots of other little quirks province to province.

Always remember that SS, unlike CS, is not written in stone. The SSAG is a guideline/range. If you do want to toy with numbers it will be debatable which SSAG you now refer to - with or without child support. Numbers do indeed vary.

You are looking for an end date for SS. That is the important factor for you. SS for longer-term marriages is intended to be transitional until the recipient adjusts to living within his/her own standard of living. With that said, there is a stark contrast of income between yourself and your ex. Was she at any time employed in a profession (nursing for example)? Has she attempted, by way of educational upgrading, to catch-up and get her career going again? All of these factors and more should be examined carefully. If your ex was a cashier (for example) 18 years ago then the disadvantage suffered would be only that she was not able to contribute to CPP for the 12 years she stayed home. Always look at one point of view and then counter it. If you do that you could come up with a reasonable argument.
 
Could you please give me a link if possible to the canlii? I'm from Ontario. Why should it be any different from province to province? They write these laws and one or more is allowed to deviate away from what is written law across Canada. It's frustrating enough trying to figure this out and absorb it. There is so much ground work to cover when trying to find a way for a judge to look your way being the higher income earner. I'd be satisfied if I got an end date within 2-3 years.
She was a banquet supervisor and got a good paying job as an autoworker with full benefits.
 
Here is the link:

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/


If you haven't used canlii before you just type in words on the top line where it says "document text, etc" and hit enter. Then you will see cases come up. I have given you the link for the Superior Court of Ontario. Try to change your words around, for example: spousal support imputing income to receiver. You'll get the hang of it. Be sure to check out the Court of Appeal as well.

Happy reading!
 
Another thing to remember when doing your research and using CanLii is that all the cases show the case law that the lawyers used when presenting their arguments. I think the most interesting part is reading how the judge interprets the case law and applies it to the case he is making a decision on.

You will find as you get into your research that many cases are used over and over again. These are precedent-setting cases and form the basis of decisions made currently in the courts across the country.
 
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