"Don't Panic" - What Defines Urgency Before the Court?

[Tayken]

I believe unevenplayingground's partner is military, in which case it is highly probable that he was posted, against his will, to a position elsewhere because the Canadian Forces has a need for him there.

He can't leave the service and seek employment in the public sector? I do respect those who *choose* military service but, it is ultimately a choice one makes and has to live with.

 

[baldclub]

Of course he can...if he's lucky. What if you are an infantry soldier? Not a lot of parallel trades in the civilian world. Police officer is similar somewhat, but you need to be extremely lucky to find a job and one close to where your children are. Also we're constrained by contracts, I'm not allowed to leave the military for another year and a half for example, due to the tax payers' investment in my training.
Just saying, military life can take its toll on families in different ways. Personally, I think my own marital problems started after I left the military the first time, leading us to financial difficulties. Sorry OP (original poster), don't want to hijack your thread.

 

[Unevenplayingground]

Of course he can...if he's lucky. What if you are an infantry soldier? Not a lot of parallel trades in the civilian world. Police officer is similar somewhat, but you need to be extremely lucky to find a job and one close to where your children are. Also we're constrained by contracts, I'm not allowed to leave the military for another year and a half for example, due to the tax payers' investment in my training.
Just saying, military life can take its toll on families in different ways. Personally, I think my own marital problems started after I left the military the first time, leading us to financial difficulties. Sorry OP (original poster), don't want to hijack your thread.

Unfortunately, the area his son lives, the only type of job he is trained for, he was doing. So no matter what he would have to move for work. And the type of job he does in the military doesn't open a lot of doors to employment after military life.

 

[Unevenplayingground]

He can't leave the service and seek employment in the public sector? I do respect those who *choose* military service but, it is ultimately a choice one makes and has to live with.

Tayken, i'm kind of surprised with this response from you. I don't mean this to in a disrespectful way, but it is a very black and white response from you. If it had of been that easy, we would have done it, but we are both military, we both would have had to quit our jobs. My husband had been in one location for over 13 years, that is actually pretty darn good for the military. You would normally have to move every 5-7 years, and his ex knew he was military when they met.

When you have 5 children, you absolutely have to provide for all of them. We are scraping by on good incomes. Suggesting that two people just up and quit their jobs (which would have taken at least 6 months to be released from the military) seems to me, to be very irresponsible. I really think a judge would think the same thing. I don't think it is as simple as saying it was a "choice", it was necessity. We would not have been eligible for EI or even welfare, if we had made the "choice" to just irresponsibly quit our jobs.

 

[Tayken]

Of course he can...if he's lucky. What if you are an infantry soldier? Not a lot of parallel trades in the civilian world.

Something that employee ("infantry soldier") should be addressing in their career. Same impact someone in a "buggy whip" industry should be considering. Like all the printing press operators who were laid off when the internet hit and published materials declined.

Also we're constrained by contracts, I'm not allowed to leave the military for another year and a half for example, due to the tax payers' investment in my training.

Many private industry and other public working individuals have the same commitments. What about a manager whom agrees to complete an MBA and if they leave the company they have to pay back a portion of the education?

Just saying, military life can take its toll on families in different ways.

That is *life* not just "military life". Nothing you have described is "unique" to being in the military.

On average today in 2012 and going forward people often have to change careers. The "magical" world of one-job-one-career-for-life hasn't existing in society for quite some time now. Everyone should be working towards being able to adapt to change. Versus project blame that they can't change (careers, employment, update skills, etc...). Every human has the capability to "change".

 

[Tayken]

Tayken, i'm kind of surprised with this response from you. I don't mean this to in a disrespectful way, but it is a very black and white response from you.

How so. It is very easy to claim something is "black and white" but, much more difficult to "demonstrate" that it is. If it is truly "black and white" thinking then it is easy to state:

You stated "white" - supported by fact (i.e. a quote from the person).
Then you stated "black" - supported by fact (i.e. a quote from the person).

But, the counter argument is a human factor of "change". Opinions change.

If it had of been that easy, we would have done it, but we are both military, we both would have had to quit our jobs.

No one ever said life is easy.

My husband had been in one location for over 13 years, that is actually pretty darn good for the military.

Also far beyond the employment statistics for people working in other industries (private and public). Most people's employment is on a 7 year cycle.

You would normally have to move every 5-7 years, and his ex knew he was military when they met.

So, after divorce the children should be subject to one parent's career choice and impact on their "best interests". I am of the opinion that a parent's choices should reflect the children's best interests.

When you have 5 children, you absolutely have to provide for all of them. We are scraping by on good incomes. Suggesting that two people just up and quit their jobs (which would have taken at least 6 months to be released from the military) seems to me, to be very irresponsible.

It would be irresponsible and you are jumping to conclusions about what I was stating. But, being a parent one should be planning a sustainable career and planning to be able to provide for their children.

I really think a judge would think the same thing. I don't think it is as simple as saying it was a "choice", it was necessity. We would not have been eligible for EI or even welfare, if we had made the "choice" to just irresponsibly quit our jobs.

If you have chosen a career path that is "buggy whip" or limited on market avalibility then, you adapt, change, educate yourself in another field and move to a better opportunity. Complaining and lamenting that you cannot because you are in the military really isn't going to solve the problem.

 

[Tayken]

I really think a judge would think the same thing.

Based on your past postings, in an admission against interest, a judge has possibly provided their "thoughts" driving a FINAL order in your matter and in contravention of your own statements, for the child in question to primarily reside in their habitual residential jurisdiction, which is not where the child in question's parent (your husband?) resides, with the other parent.

I could be wrong though. Lots of content on this site and limited time to verify.

 

[Unevenplayingground]

Based on your past postings, in an admission against interest, a judge has possibly provided their "thoughts" driving a FINAL order in your matter and in contravention of your own statements, for the child in question to primarily reside in their habitual residential jurisdiction, which is not where the child in question's parent (your husband?) resides, with the other parent.

I could be wrong though. Lots of content on this site and limited time to verify.

My previous posts I stated the judge didn't make the decision. There are so many other elements that cannot be conveyed through limited responses.

 

[Tayken]

My previous posts I stated the judge didn't make the decision. There are so many other elements that cannot be conveyed through limited responses.

Correct me if I am wrong but, your husband acquiesced on CONSENT to a FINAL order at a conference (case, settlement and/or trial) to the OCL's recommendations and did not challenge the recommendations?

 

[Unevenplayingground]

How so. It is very easy to claim something is "black and white" but, much more difficult to "demonstrate" that it is. If it is truly "black and white" thinking then it is easy to state:

You stated "white" - supported by fact (i.e. a quote from the person).
Then you stated "black" - supported by fact (i.e. a quote from the person).

But, the counter argument is a human factor of "change". Opinions change.

It isn't simple, it isn't easy but having a steady income (when the biological mother can't hold down a job) so the child can have his basic needs met, is in the child's best interest. There are also 4 other children that need a roof over their head and food in their belly. Basic needs start there.


No one ever said life is easy.


Also far beyond the employment statistics for people working in other industries (private and public). Most people's employment is on a 7 year cycle.
Yes, and with this employment "instability" comes a lot of other down sides. My husband would also make no where near what he is making in the military. The mother has yet to hold a job down, (longest job 1 year 2 months, and that was a good stretch for her). So should my husband go to school and retrain, is that the suggestion here? If so, in the meantime, I take a lower paying job (with little stability) to support 5 children, 2 adults?


So, after divorce the children should be subject to one parent's career choice and impact on their "best interests". I am of the opinion that a parent's choices should reflect the children's best interests.

I don't see how holding down a full time stable job is not in the best interests of the child? I feel it is in the best interests to have a steady income. If every parent only accepted jobs that were in the "best interests" of the child, there would be a lot of unemployed parents out there.



It would be irresponsible and you are jumping to conclusions about what I was stating. But, being a parent one should be planning a sustainable career and planning to be able to provide for their children.

This is what he is doing.


If you have chosen a career path that is "buggy whip" or limited on market avalibility then, you adapt, change, educate yourself in another field and move to a better opportunity. Complaining and lamenting that you cannot because you are in the military really isn't going to solve the problem.

Agreed, if it does not create a greater hardship for the family.

What you are saying is black and white because you are saying that if my husband's best interests were for his child, he would have quit his job and just got a new one. Simple as that, but it isn't that simple.



In one breathe you are saying it would be in the child's best interest to quit your job, and in the next you are saying I am jumping to conclusions (even though that is what you wrote). I find this confusing.

You are arguing, when you do not have a full understanding of the military, that we should just quit our jobs for the best interests of the child.

Of course when we were posted we had 5 children to consider. So the decision to not quit our jobs was based on all of our circumstances, with consideration to our children. We needed to financially support 5 children, we have stability, we have TWO medical/dental plans (something the biological mother has only ever provided for herself), so the child's best interests were put first, actually all of them.

 

[Unevenplayingground]

Correct me if I am wrong but, your husband acquiesced on CONSENT to a FINAL order at a conference (case, settlement and/or trial) to the OCL's recommendations and did not challenge the recommendations?

You are 100% right. Our lawyer advised us to, she said the judge would side with the OCL. We could not find another lawyer to hire, and literally stuck with this lawyer. We were in NB fighting this. The child is in ON.

We are financially not in a good spot, and could not afford to fly up for every court date. We tried to hire a lawyer here, but the lawyer here would have had to fly up as well.

We found out after the OCL made their recommendation, that the mother's live in bf was charged and plead guilty to possession of an illegal substance. We asked our lawyer repeatedly if this changed anything, no response, over and over.

At this point we don't know what to do, the mother would say a lot of things to the child and it would upset him. If I am on the phone with the child, the mother is in the background making comments to the child, calling him naive (because the child asked if we could get posted back and I said no). She went on to say I was lying. This was after the decision from the OCL. So do we put the child through this all over again? We don't know what to do. We don't want him going through more of this. It was very hard on him, his mother would tell him if he left she couldn't afford her apartment anymore because she would lose her cs. Pretty big weight to put on a child if you ask me.

 

[baldclub]

Something that employee ("infantry soldier") should be addressing in their career. Same impact someone in a "buggy whip" industry should be considering. Like all the printing press operators who were laid off when the internet hit and published materials declined.



Many private industry and other public working individuals have the same commitments. What about a manager whom agrees to complete an MBA and if they leave the company they have to pay back a portion of the education?



That is *life* not just "military life". Nothing you have described is "unique" to being in the military.

On average today in 2012 and going forward people often have to change careers. The "magical" world of one-job-one-career-for-life hasn't existing in society for quite some time now. Everyone should be working towards being able to adapt to change. Versus project blame that they can't change (careers, employment, update skills, etc...). Every human has the capability to "change".

Will post a reply with some documentation from studies to highlight the uniqueness of the CF's load on family life. That should be fairly easy once I get home. Note my example of the infanteer and also I want to address your comment of sustainable career.

 

[Unevenplayingground]

Will post a reply with some documentation from studies to highlight the uniqueness of the CF's load on family life. That should be fairly easy once I get home. Note my example of the infanteer and also I want to address your comment of sustainable career.

I wish we had a "like" button.

 

[Tayken]

Will post a reply with some documentation from studies to highlight the uniqueness of the CF's load on family life. That should be fairly easy once I get home. Note my example of the infanteer and also I want to address your comment of sustainable career.

Just be careful. As an enlisted member of the military you may be under obligation by contract not to make liable statements against the military and the positive opportunities it provides to families as a career. You wouldn't want to expose anything that puts the military and service in a bad light as an enlisted employee.

(Not being rude here or poking fun. Military contracts for employment under the terms of service are not a walk in the park to understand.)

You wouldn't want to post information in contravention to your terms of service agreement by which you suggest that military life is not supportive of a family needs. This could have an impact on anyone searching the internet for information about a "career" in the military negatively.

 

[Tayken]

You are 100% right. Our lawyer advised us to, she said the judge would side with the OCL. We could not find another lawyer to hire, and literally stuck with this lawyer. We were in NB fighting this. The child is in ON.

So you moved already. Unfortunate for the child in question. The establishment of status quo with the other parent was already established.

We are financially not in a good spot, and could not afford to fly up for every court date. We tried to hire a lawyer here, but the lawyer here would have had to fly up as well.

Nor is any litigant generally before the Family Court system in any jurisdiction. Litigation does not lead to anyone becoming rich other than the professionals involved in the matter that people are battling out that they couldn't figure out themselves.

We found out after the OCL made their recommendation, that the mother's live in bf was charged and plead guilty to possession of an illegal substance. We asked our lawyer repeatedly if this changed anything, no response, over and over.

Nothing. Nothing you could do. It isn't "evidence". Unless the person in question was injecting, blowing smoke, or forcing the child in question with the "illegal substance" it is irrelevant. The CAS and Police have to return hundreds of children a day to parents who live in known grow ops after they are all cleaned up.

At this point we don't know what to do, the mother would say a lot of things to the child and it would upset him. If I am on the phone with the child, the mother is in the background making comments to the child, calling him naive (because the child asked if we could get posted back and I said no).

This is easy to deal with and falls under the concept of "parental anonymity". You basically need to get a third party (expert witness) to listen into the call and transcribe them (to text).

Also, remember *your* conversation to the child in question will be transcribed in full too. The expert witness should be unbiased.

She went on to say I was lying. This was after the decision from the OCL. So do we put the child through this all over again? We don't know what to do.

No, you don't have to. Have a normal conversation, let the other parent demonstrate what you are stating to a expert witness who can transcribe the conduct and you present it to court and call the expert witness as a witness.

We don't want him going through more of this.

But, if what you are stating is truthful regarding the violation of the father's parental anonymity during access calls it can easily be demonstrated. But, be forewarned a third party expert witness may tell you that you are hearing things, it isn't a problem and not a danger to the child and have nothing to proceed with before the court.

Good Luck!
Tayken

 

[Tayken]

Agreed, if it does not create a greater hardship for the family.

What you are saying is black and white because you are saying that if my husband's best interests were for his child, he would have quit his job and just got a new one. Simple as that, but it isn't that simple.

You are taking exceptional liberties with what I am thinking, stating and saying. This is known as "jumping to conclusions".

What I am stating is that a parent, independent of their life choices, should be willing and able to meet and exceed their commitments to their children's best interests if they want to be a custodial parent and have primary residency.

This includes proper career planning, adaptability to change, embracing change and actually changing. This is not quitting a job. This is called career planning.

In one breathe you are saying it would be in the child's best interest to quit your job, and in the next you are saying I am jumping to conclusions (even though that is what you wrote). I find this confusing.

Where did I state he should "quit his job". I recommended a change in employment. This could be done through proper planning, education and re-training on the job while in the military. Done through the assitance of a scollarship. There are many positive ways to make a career change. It doesn't have to be as *you* state the black concept (which you have derived from my statements on your own accord) of "quitting a job".

You are arguing, when you do not have a full understanding of the military, that we should just quit our jobs for the best interests of the child.

I know quite a lot about military service. Unfortunate you jump to conclusions again.

Of course when we were posted we had 5 children to consider. So the decision to not quit our jobs was based on all of our circumstances, with consideration to our children.

Training? Military sells training and education as a major reason to join. Leverage the opportunity with your current employer. There are lots of great opportunities in the military but, one has to seek them just like at any other employer.

We needed to financially support 5 children, we have stability, we have TWO medical/dental plans (something the biological mother has only ever provided for herself), so the child's best interests were put first, actually all of them.

Just not their habitual residential requirements in accordance with the CHildren's Law Reform Act when aligned to Rule 24 of the same Act. Which was identified by the OCL and agreed upon by consent to a FINAL order by the father and made into a legal court order to the fact.

Being a parent means sacrificing one's own "best interests" for the "best interests of the child".

Good Luck!
Tayken

 

[Unevenplayingground]

Tayken,

We did move already, but the process started well before the move. It took an additional 11 months to receive the OCL's recommendations. The mother did a lot of stalling, wouldn't sign the OCL consent, then would, things like that. The military gives you a specific date to move, and you have 30 days (on either end) to ask to move it around. It is not always approved.

Financially I was only speaking from our perspective, of course we understand the only people making money off of family courts are the lawyers.

We now know the drug charge meant nothing, but it would have been nice to get a response from our lawyer, there were drug issues with his ex before. We were hoping this would further back this up. She was also charged with domestic abuse, we were hoping this would all speak for her character and the company she keeps.

Now, since we told the mother we tape the conversations she hasn't been saying anything bad. She will "hover" over the child and include herself into their conversation, but the negatives have stopped. Can my husband do anything about her hovering, or is that a to bad so sad situation?

Now, if we had of hired an expert witness, would we have had to tell her that we did, and that the conversation was being recorded?

We had no idea you could hire somebody to do this. We actually received a "warning" email from her lawyer (stating she could not advise us of the legality of taping the calls, we were just telling her, not asking the legality) when we advised her we were recording the calls.

 

[Unevenplayingground]

You are taking exceptional liberties with what I am thinking, stating and saying. This is known as "jumping to conclusions".


I had to remove the rest of what you said because it won't let me post otherwise.

So you are right, there is "potential" to re-train in the military. A member has some options, if it is approved. In saying that, IF, it is approved, the member would then have to go re-train, and the odds in that person being able to stay home and do their training is very slim. Depending on the job they would re-train for, they could be away for 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, just depends on what they applied for. It isn't nearly as easy as you have made it sound. The military is cutting back, but you probably know that with your knowledge of the military. A lot of trades are "closed", that is actually how the military refers to it when a certain trade is not available to apply for, as there are no positions "open". My husband's job, which is not lining him up for civilian work, is also currently closed. Not a whole lot of choices right now, and actually for the past few years.

The training (that you are referring to), that the military promotes, is your initial training. Just like any employer, they don't like to pay twice. In the military they don't just "post" internal job listings.

When it comes to the decision not to release, because even if my husband changed trades (imagining it was that easy), he still would have had to leave the area and be separated from ALL of his children for an extended period of time. And then when his training was complete, guess what, A POSTING!! I'm sure you knew that though, since you know quite a lot about the military. So we are back at square one.

So there was a lot of factors included in our decision, and this was the best decision for our children on a whole. The decision was never going to be a winning one, but it was the BEST decision for our 5 children.

 

[Tayken]

Tayken,

We did move already, but the process started well before the move. It took an additional 11 months to receive the OCL's recommendations. The mother did a lot of stalling, wouldn't sign the OCL consent, then would, things like that. The military gives you a specific date to move, and you have 30 days (on either end) to ask to move it around. It is not always approved.

Delay, delay, delay, it is a legal strategy. If you document the delays and have a *good* lawyer, these issues can be addressed on motion and on costs requests. For the next time you have to deal with, set clear time lines, if they are not met, bring forward a motion rather than waiting.

Now, since we told the mother we tape the conversations she hasn't been saying anything bad. She will "hover" over the child and include herself into their conversation, but the negatives have stopped. Can my husband do anything about her hovering, or is that a to bad so sad situation?

Not much really. So long as she is not interupting the conversation verbally you really can't do much.

Now, if we had of hired an expert witness, would we have had to tell her that we did, and that the conversation was being recorded?

If you are recording it serves the same purpose as you can turn over the recording to a transcription service and have it transcribed. No need for the expert. But, if the conduct is no longer continuing then, you have no grounds to complain about the conduct.

We had no idea you could hire somebody to do this. We actually received a "warning" email from her lawyer (stating she could not advise us of the legality of taping the calls, we were just telling her, not asking the legality) when we advised her we were recording the calls.

You could also advise the lawyer back that the recordings are permissible under law, can be transcribed and if the conduct continues an expert third party with a mental health background will be retained to listen in and transcribe the calls. This expert would be called as a witness to provide an expert opinion on the conduct of the calls.

The warning is about the "admissibility" of the evidence. But, if transcribed properly it can be entered into a court record. The court won't sit there and listen to stuff but, if you transcribe verbatim what happened at what minute... The court will consider it. How the written came about isn't really the concern. You just use the recording to insure what you stated is fact. If challenged you have the recording should the court want to hear it.

 

[Tayken]

So you are right, there is "potential" to re-train in the military. A member has some options, if it is approved. In saying that, IF, it is approved, the member would then have to go re-train, and the odds in that person being able to stay home and do their training is very slim. Depending on the job they would re-train for, they could be away for 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, just depends on what they applied for. It isn't nearly as easy as you have made it sound.

It isn't easy with any employer. In fact, when compared to most private employers, the military has way more better training and acceptance of training. The average budget for a private employee is about 120$ a year in "training" in an HR budget. The top 30 companies that get listed is about $1200 per employee per year and that is one of the criteria to get that nice seal from MacLeans Magazine and other "ranking" systems for the "best employer".

Still doesn't mean they will let you spend the training dollars... or you will have the time to do it while employed either. No different than the military.

The military is cutting back, but you probably know that with your knowledge of the military. A lot of trades are "closed", that is actually how the military refers to it when a certain trade is not available to apply for, as there are no positions "open". My husband's job, which is not lining him up for civilian work, is also currently closed. Not a whole lot of choices right now, and actually for the past few years.

Reflective of the reality that other private sector and public sector workers face every day. Look at what is happening with the teaching profession. There is no "safe" employment / employer any more in our society.

The training (that you are referring to), that the military promotes, is your initial training. Just like any employer, they don't like to pay twice. In the military they don't just "post" internal job listings.

Private and most public sector industry expect you to come with your training (education) in hand prior to employment. So at least you get that opportunity in the military if you choose to do so when entering. I don't know of any other private or public sector industry with an "RMC-like" equivalent.

When it comes to the decision not to release, because even if my husband changed trades (imagining it was that easy), he still would have had to leave the area and be separated from ALL of his children for an extended period of time. And then when his training was complete, guess what, A POSTING!! I'm sure you knew that though, since you know quite a lot about the military. So we are back at square one.

No different than educating yourself for a specific field and then having to hunt for a "posting" on Workopolis.ca in the private and public sector. You may have spent years getting a degree and even post graduate studies to find out... Technology, a change in market or economy has basically wiped your career path out. Everyone whom is employed has to deal with this challenge.

In fact, it is different because only an enlisted person can apply to the "posting" and not a member of the public. When something goes up on Workopolis.ca you are competing against thousands of others. Generally when I post something with a head hunter these days for a position I get about 250-300 resumes.

You can't hide from the economy. It impacts all aspects of employment be it private, military, and public sector work. There is no "safe" job. In fact, one would argue that the military has one of the best pensions out there... Only second maybe to the teachers union. The vast majority of the population doesn't have this as a benefit to employment.