Deducting Child Support to Cover Agreed Expenditures

[Brampton33]

Looking for some input on a sticky situation. My separation was highly contentious/high conflict. Much to the chagrin of my ex, we ended up with a court order for joint custody and 50/50 parenting of our 2 children. As previous posts have suggested, my ex has resorted to vindictive and petty behaviour. The latest is finances. For someone who fought to keep kids for herself, she doesn't much care about the paying her share of finances related to our kids...leaving it all on me. Its mind boggling.

This includes s.7 expenditures such as soccer and karate. She agrees to sign up the kids and asks me to do so....but never does she pay her share. Emails and texts to pay up go ignored. Despite court order saying these things are to be split.

Other expenditures include outdoor clothing, winter clothing, school field trips, school incidentals (milk, weekly lunches) and other stuff. It adds up. Always left to me to purchase. My ex finally agreed (in writing) to split these incidentals. Afterall, why should it all be borne by one parent?

Despite all this... I still have not seen 1 cent. I always ensure to take the high road in case I end up before a judge again, where my ex will have nothing on me. So child support has always been paid in full and on time. However, would it be plausible to start deducting stuff off of the monthly child support to cover her share of stuff, like her share of agreed up on expenditures? Can I do this or would I get my hand slapped?

 

[Bogdan]

Dealing with exactly the same situation .. expect Ex makes more money, and I don't receive an offset due to a clause the judge put in to avoid conflict i.e. "best interest of the child".

This includes s.7 expenditures such as soccer and karate. She agrees to sign up the kids and asks me to do so....but never does she pay her share. Emails and texts to pay up go ignored. Despite court order saying these things are to be split.

S7 expenditure payments and scheduling have been SUCH an issue for me that I've resolved to only booking them on my time, and paying them in full by myself. Hence the need for a 2/2/5/5 schedule.

Other expenditures include outdoor clothing, winter clothing, school field trips, school incidentals (milk, weekly lunches) and other stuff. It adds up. Always left to me to purchase. My ex finally agreed (in writing) to split these incidentals. Afterall, why should it all be borne by one parent?

I drop off our kids in EXACTLY the same cloths that I receive them in to avoid conflict (mothers cloths). I let teachers know of the "clothing" issues to make sure that my cloths don't go home with the mom (at which point they get thrown out). EOD, the mom never has my cloths.

School incidentals ? check if you can only pay for your days. Same with school trips .. only pay for the school trips on your time.

School lunches ? if its an all or nothing .. stop paying, and start making lunches on your days. BTW making your own school lunches is a nice little win when dealing with a narcissist .. as they will never put the time in to actual make something have decent.

 

[Brampton33]

S7 expenditure payments and scheduling have been SUCH an issue for me that I've resolved to only booking them on my time, and paying them in full by myself. Hence the need for a 2/2/5/5 schedule.

Most activities offered or available are on weekends like Saturday mornings. Our schedule alternates weekends.

I drop off our kids in EXACTLY the same cloths that I receive them in to avoid conflict (mothers cloths). I let teachers know of the "clothing" issues to make sure that my cloths don't go home with the mom (at which point they get thrown out). EOD, the mom never has my cloths.

I am trying to not resort to this type of "mine vs yours" behaviour. The kids are old enough that they like to choose their own clothes in the morning for school. I don't want to be the parent that says "no, you cannot wear that, it must be mom's clothes". I am trying to shield my kids from that type of divisiveness. Kids are old enough to catch on that mom is the one playing games whereas dad is easy-going. What I dislike is when I buy nice/expensive clothes and never see them again.

School incidentals ? check if you can only pay for your days. Same with school trips .. only pay for the school trips on your time.

These are all purchased online and in advance. Same with school lunches which is offered one day per week. I know this is not hill to die on, but its nice for kids to have it (as most of their friends have it as well) and remember, ex agreed (in writing) to split these costs equally.

So can I just deduct expenditures from monthly child support payments? Or is that off limits and can be used against me somehow? My ex is keen on "being on record" to play nice, but does not follow through.

 

[Bogdan]

I'll comment from my experience .. not sure what would work for you ..

Most activities offered or available are on weekends like Saturday mornings. Our schedule alternates weekends.

I tried weekends .. it's not worth the effort as Ex would likely not take the kids to activities on her time, which ended up being a waste of time. Keeping activities to my time only avoids conflict (and waste of $$).

I am trying to not resort to this type of "mine vs yours" behaviour. The kids are old enough that they like to choose their own clothes in the morning for school. I don't want to be the parent that says "no, you cannot wear that, it must be mom's clothes".

I am trying to shield my kids from that type of divisiveness. Kids are old enough to catch on that mom is the one playing games whereas dad is easy-going. What I dislike is when I buy nice/expensive clothes and never see them again.

I've explained things to my kids in a child appropriate way, and they know that Mommy freaks out in regards to cloths (especially her cloths not being returned). Kids know to wear actually what Mommy put them in as not to piss her off. Sad I know.

I certainly would never give up the kids to my Ex in really nice/expensive cloths as I know (and she's admitted to) of just throwing them out -- especially when she knows I like them.

Judge did nothing (and doubt he will do anything in your case either) .. even with blatant proof of Ex admitting to throwing out (your) cloths because she didn't like them.

Not a hill to die on IMO -- @Rockscan would likely agree

So can I just deduct expenditures from monthly child support payments? Or is that off limits and can be used against me somehow? My ex is keen on "being on record" to play nice, but does not follow through.

Double check legally -- but if you have written confirmation of said Section 7 expenses being agree on by your Ex, then I think it's a possibility just make it explicit on the cheque / payment ... i.e. payment X - minus S7 expense Y agreed on Z.

 

[Tayken]

soccer and karate -- Realistically how much do these activities cost?

RoC (Return on Conflict) is HIGH if you fight over expenses that don't exceed your weekly income as a rule of thumb.

Buy that I mean... If the total cost for soccer doesn't exceed what you take home (after taxes) in a single week of employment it isn't worth even mentioning. Pay it and move on.

The clothing fight is silly. I never buy it. Especially in Canada. What parent is going to dare send their kids to school, where the professionals are required to report to CAS, without the proper winter clothing?!

Seriously folks... The jackets at Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc... are all pretty damn good usually. If you live in Southern Ontario... here is a tip. Go up to Huntsville or other cities and shop there. No one will recognize you or the children and the selection of stuff is significantly better and not turned over as much as in Southern Ontario.

As well, you get to go somewhere cool and have an experience. Kids won't even think about it being a thrift shop... Just that it was different.

Fighting over clothing is super petty. Just get the stuff at thrift stores and move on. It may take you time to find good stuff but, its there... and often for 1$.

 

[Brampton33]

soccer and karate -- Realistically how much do these activities cost?

RoC (Return on Conflict) is HIGH if you fight over expenses that don't exceed your weekly income as a rule of thumb.

Buy that I mean... If the total cost for soccer doesn't exceed what you take home (after taxes) in a single week of employment it isn't worth even mentioning. Pay it and move on.

Fair comment, however the expenditures cumulatively add up. For example, soccer is $300 per child 3x per year. Her share may only be $800 for the year, but then add to that other expenditures as they arise....the list starts to get long and the amount starts to add up over time.

 

[Tayken]

Fair comment, however the expenditures cumulatively add up. For example, soccer is $300 per child 3x per year. Her share may only be $800 for the year, but then add to that other expenditures as they arise....the list starts to get long and the amount starts to add up over time.

Wait for braces and other orthodontic work to act on S7. They instantly count as S7 and you will need the help. It won't just be about frustration... It will be about your children getting their orthodontic issues corrected.

Best plan your battles over S7 than making every payment a fight. There are big things that you will need to debate over like braces...

 

[Brampton33]

Wait for braces and other orthodontic work to act on S7. They instantly count as S7 and you will need the help. It won't just be about frustration... It will be about your children getting their orthodontic issues corrected.

Best plan your battles over S7 than making every payment a fight. There are big things that you will need to debate over like braces...

True enough. I'm keeping a tally of all expenditures which has been adding up over the years. The issue is that I am worried about some sort of statute of limitations. Also, my ex conveniently "forgets" over time and distorts the truth as time goes on....where she will suggest that an expenditure was jointly paid when it wasn't, or that the expenditure never occurred. I have receipts and documentation to back up my claims.

 

[rockscan]

I agree some hills aren’t worth dying on. Clothes and school lunches are not the hill to die on. Medical and educational expenses are the hill to die on.

A lot of divorced kids aren’t lucky enough to participate in sports, get school lunches or milk.

Bramptons ex knows he will pay for it because he wants his kids to be happy so she can play this game but when it comes to braces and school though, that isn’t negotiable.

You should send her monthly reminders or a note when it is coming due: hey ex, soccer fees are coming up and your share is xyz. You can pay the soccer group directly at abc email. And then at the end of the year you send another email saying your share of expenses is xyz and you may pay me via cheque blah blah blah. THEN at support update time you tell her she owes xyz and to recover the amount she owes you will be subtracting abc monthly child support until it is paid.

This is a radical approach and she could file your agreement with FRO for recovery BUT you would then file a motion to change support and recover s 7 with a monthly amount owed to you.

Which brings me to Tayken’s comments. Sports, clothes and school lunches are not necessary expenses in the eyes of the court. You do it because you want your kids to have it. Your ex doesn’t give a shit about the kids when it comes to you so this is her way of screwing you. So you need to decide, is this a hill to die on or is this just the cost of doing business?

 

[Brampton33]

You should send her monthly reminders or a note when it is coming due: hey ex, soccer fees are coming up and your share is xyz. You can pay the soccer group directly at abc email. And then at the end of the year you send another email saying your share of expenses is xyz and you may pay me via cheque blah blah blah. THEN at support update time you tell her she owes xyz and to recover the amount she owes you will be subtracting abc monthly child support until it is paid.

Yes, you are right, that I do pay for incidentals as I want kids to be happy...and not to be affected in any way because of my ex's antics. My ex is spiteful, and is oblivious that her behaviour actually affects kids.

I have tried sending emails. They go ignored. I have mentioned outstanding monies owed during annual recalculation. Goes ignored. I am now at the point where the only way that I will recover monies owed is if I act myself. I just want to ensure I don't get my hand slapped in any way....or get any blemishes on me in any way.

 

[rockscan]

You won’t. You have given her enough warning and have it writing that you requested it. She would more than likely file with FRO and then you would need a court order to change it which you will request costs with.

 

[iona6656]

Most activities offered or available are on weekends like Saturday mornings. Our schedule alternates weekends.

Yep. Especially for little kids. Also- if your kids are younger- it's hard to have too many afterschool activities during the week.

I am trying to not resort to this type of "mine vs yours" behaviour. The kids are old enough that they like to choose their own clothes in the morning for school. I don't want to be the parent that says "no, you cannot wear that, it must be mom's clothes". I am trying to shield my kids from that type of divisiveness. Kids are old enough to catch on that mom is the one playing games whereas dad is easy-going. What I dislike is when I buy nice/expensive clothes and never see them again.

Yeah- my ex does the same thing. But then again- he pays full table so I expect him to keep what he wants. What's frustrating is not knowing where her clothes are...because she comes back on his days looking like a bag lady. But I just kinda let it go. Some days though- like Terry Fox day last week, she wasn't dressed appropriately (not warmly enough at all. no jacket, dress with no tights, etc)...so you have to be ready to run some clothes to the school if necessary. D5's teacher knows her parents are split. I keep a second set of clothes at school in case.

I've asked if I can send over a set of clothes for her to choose from to his house. He said "No." His prerogative.

This sounds weird/onerous- but I get less expensive clothes- hand me downs + joe fresh and put her in those clothes when I know she's going to her dad's place. So if I never see them again. No big.

Also- would you ex be willing to go to co-parent counselling? it sounds like you guys need it.

 

[Bogdan]

This sounds weird/onerous- but I get less expensive clothes- hand me downs + joe fresh and put her in those clothes when I know she's going to her dad's place. So if I never see them again. No big.

Yep .. same here. The occasional cost of losing some cheap Joe Fresh clothing is the just an assumed cost of having kids with a narcissist .. and still cheaper (and less tiresome) than trying to have the legal system do anything about it or chasing the Ex for $$.

Also- would you ex be willing to go to co-parent counselling? it sounds like you guys need it.

If Bramptons Ex is anything like mine (which it sounds like she most certainly is) .. then Yes Co-Parenting Counselling is definitely needed, and No this Counselling will never actually happen as would involve the Ex accepting it the first place (and it a way accepting that she needs parenting tips and isn't an infallible parent).

No sense rationalizing with the illogical.

 

[Tayken]

Which brings me to Tayken�s comments. Sports, clothes and school lunches are not necessary expenses in the eyes of the court. You do it because you want your kids to have it. Your ex doesn�t give a shit about the kids when it comes to you so this is her way of screwing you. So you need to decide, is this a hill to die on or is this just the cost of doing business?

Children notice though. I have now completed a round of interviews with children who are now 18+ regarding their parents and the conduct around the court. Interestingly in every interview for the long-term research project... Every child can identify and describe the offending parent and who was the parent that cared.

The parent that pays and invests in them always ended up with the best adult relationship with the child. In some cases the child when they turned 18 ended all communications with the "majority access and custodial parent" who conducted themselves in a manner that Brampton33 describes.

Play the long game everyone. LONG GAME. Parent/child relationships are for life. Invest in them long-term and not for immediate results. I know it sucks everyone... but, the payoff is huge when you consider that most Canadians now live to 80++.

 

[Brampton33]

@Bogdan: You could not be more on point. My ex would never entertain meeting with a co-parenting coordinator. My ex does think there are issues, but they all relate to me and my parenting style/choices....being that they do not adhere to her liking. Even if she did attend counseling, she would immediately suggest the person wasn't qualified or was off-the-ball if their opinions differed from her thinking (note: she even suggested the OCL clinician who worked our case should be fired)

@Iona: I contemplated it, even if it meant me going independently. My ex never agreed to joint custody and 50/50 parenting and is of the belief that the system failed her in pushing her into it. Her thinking is stuck in the 1980's where she thinks EOW is perfectly acceptable, despite the fact we literally live 5 minutes apart and I am not a deadbeat/addict. She wouldn't attend counseling and even if she did, she would simply use it as an opportunity to try to get a professional ally in her corner, as opposed to ironing out differences for smoother sailing.

@Tayken: Yes, kids are young, but are already starting to see the nonsense coming from her side. Kids are smart and don't care for drama.

 

[Brampton33]

If I understand correctly.... the process would be as follows: I send emails (monthly) accounting for her share of expenditures. Per usual, she does not acknowledge. After a few attempts, I notify her that I will start deducting from monthly child support payment to recover my share. Most likely she then files with FRO to have child support payments automatically withdrawn, stating that I am not always giving the proper amount (note: she already waived FRO involvement at the time the court order was signed). I then file with court to amend court order to ensure that she pays her share of expenditures within 30 days of receipt provided.

However, from what I understand in posts that I have read, this would be un-enforceable. Am I missing anything? I am still baffled that a grown adult (and supposed responsible parent) does not pay her fair share towards kids.

 

[rockscan]

It can be enforceable and you could ask for a specific amount be deducted from cs to cover the expenses. For instance your offset amount is $400 but you need $100 per month for section 7. Then the order says your monthly amount is $300.

If you are offset, is there a number in your order? You may be ok if there isn’t.

 

[Tayken]

If I understand correctly.... the process would be as follows: I send emails (monthly) accounting for her share of expenditures. Per usual, she does not acknowledge. After a few attempts, I notify her that I will start deducting from monthly child support payment to recover my share. Most likely she then files with FRO to have child support payments automatically withdrawn, stating that I am not always giving the proper amount (note: she already waived FRO involvement at the time the court order was signed). I then file with court to amend court order to ensure that she pays her share of expenditures within 30 days of receipt provided.

However, from what I understand in posts that I have read, this would be un-enforceable. Am I missing anything? I am still baffled that a grown adult (and supposed responsible parent) does not pay her fair share towards kids.

Really bad idea. The other party will send your order to FRO for enforcement. If there is an order for CS then you follow the order. You don't get to modify it to meet your personal needs.

Never take CS into your own hands. 100% of the time it will backfire.

 

[blinkandimgone]

Looking for some input on a sticky situation. My separation was highly contentious/high conflict. Much to the chagrin of my ex, we ended up with a court order for joint custody and 50/50 parenting of our 2 children. As previous posts have suggested, my ex has resorted to vindictive and petty behaviour. The latest is finances. For someone who fought to keep kids for herself, she doesn't much care about the paying her share of finances related to our kids...leaving it all on me. Its mind boggling.

This includes s.7 expenditures such as soccer and karate. She agrees to sign up the kids and asks me to do so....but never does she pay her share. Emails and texts to pay up go ignored. Despite court order saying these things are to be split.

Other expenditures include outdoor clothing, winter clothing, school field trips, school incidentals (milk, weekly lunches) and other stuff. It adds up. Always left to me to purchase. My ex finally agreed (in writing) to split these incidentals. Afterall, why should it all be borne by one parent?

Despite all this... I still have not seen 1 cent. I always ensure to take the high road in case I end up before a judge again, where my ex will have nothing on me. So child support has always been paid in full and on time. However, would it be plausible to start deducting stuff off of the monthly child support to cover her share of stuff, like her share of agreed up on expenditures? Can I do this or would I get my hand slapped?

Going back to your original post....

Why not consider it a lesson learned, let mom make the arrangements and you pay your share after the fact, either to her or (ideally) to the organization. For school stuff, pay your share to the school and let them know mom will be contacting them to pay her share, or let her arrange and pay your share after.

As for clothes etc, each of provides for your own household.

You've tried it this say and it hasn't worked, seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[Brampton33]

Thanks for all the responses. If I hear this all correctly:

Do not take it off CS. To date, I have kept my nose clean. The court proceedings tumultuous, and I came out looking like the level-headed and reasonable one. No need to start giving her any type of ammo to use for the inevitable attempts to weasel out of 50/50. Already she claims "its not working" according to her.

Do send emails reminding her of her outstanding s.7 contributions. She is to re-pay this as stipulated in court order. I just wish I knew (at the time of drafting the court order) that she would be like this, as I would have tried to put some teeth into it...such as %interest charge for every month late.

Also, do send emails of the school incidentals she agreed to split. This could be done in advance. Although, my ex is the type to suggest I am "pestering" so this needs to be done sparingly. Likely my ex won't pay and rely on me to continue paying. I obviously will because I just want my kids to be happy. Just keep the tabs as documentation should I ever end up in front of a judge again.