Confused - Financial Disclosure, Sale of House, and Separation Agreement

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FREEATLAST2013

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I just started the separation process with my husband, and I am already frustrated. I am the sole earner in the household, as my husband has been unemployed for the last 7 years. He is a well educated (MBA), healthy man of 37. We live in Ontario, have no children, and we own a house.

At the very beginning of the process, I managed to get him to work with me on a draft of Separation Agreement, but after some consideration I decided to take our draft to a lawyer for review and to make sure that all items in the Separation Agreement are legal. For example, he originally agreed to waive spouse support and equalization payment (work pension), as well as, he initially agreed to list the house for sale. The lawyer requested that we both complete a Financial Disclosure Form 13.1, which I was completely fine with, despite the fact that I have way more to loose than he does (i.e. pensions, investments, etc). Well, he refused to complete the Financial Disclosure saying that its not required by law. Is that true? Is there a way to force him to do it? Is there a way I am can make him sign a Separation Agreement? At this point, I am not even fighting for the waiver of the spousal support... I just want something on paper, so I know where I stand, as he is constantly changing his mind.

I still agree to pay the full amount of the household expenses, but it seems like he is getting really comfortable, and will stall the sale of the house… Is there something I can do to force him to agree to the sale?

I am really tired of being taken advantage off…. Please help.
 
The first sworn financial statement will not be the last. The law upon filing for divorce is "frank and full financial disclosure". Your husband may be waiting for yours to see where you stand on equalization issues or hoping you may have forgotten something or improper evaluations. I"m not 100% sure that technically he does not have to complete a Sworn Financial Statement at this point although it would be in his bests interest to do so; I say this that when I was served with my exs' first NFP that the lawyer I subsequently hired was quick to respond (It may have been to avoid an application to the courts in order to avoid court). The reason he is not willing to fill one in is that he may be waiting for you to file for divorce. At that point he will be legally obligated to file. Please note that nothing is final until agreed, notorized, and filed with the courts.
 
At this point we only started our separation. And my understanding is you do not file anything with the court until 1 year from the date of separation. What do you mean about “filing with the court”?

In terms of my financial info... In all the years we have been married, he had full control of all financial information - so there are no surprises for him. He knows exactly what I have, and where it is. He knows exactly how much I make, and how much money I inherited. And now he is trying to go after my inheritance, and claims that my paycheque is actually his too, and that I am not allowed to spend money at all.

So right now, I am pushing for both of us to complete the financial disclosure forms, and since he has no lawyer right now, he will have it sworn before Commissioner of Oaths. Then, the next step is to complete the Separation Agreement, and have it signed by both parties. Since I have a lawyer, mine will be signed and witnessed at my lawyers office. I also, offered to pay for his lawyer, and strongly urged him to retain one… which he is so far refusing.

So, I am hoping that once the Separation Agreement is signed and sworn in, that means that he cannot change his mind anymore…. Is that true?

Is there a way I can speed up the sale of the house?

Am I missing any steps?
 
FREEATLAST2013 said:
At this point we only started our separation. And my understanding is you do not file anything with the court until 1 year from the date of separation. What do you mean about “filing with the court”?

Is there a way I can speed up the sale of the house?

Am I missing any steps?
Click to expand...

I was told on here before, "you don't have to wait 1yr before you file anything in court. You do however have to be separated for a year to file for divorce. To get a court order for house sale, you can file with the court, but that requires you to fill out for 13.1 (property and support claims) and the other form 13 deals with either just financials or property

Look up those forms
 
Filing for court: Divorce Application. You can file for Divorce anytime although it will not be granted until a full year of separation has passsed.

Since your ex had full control of the finances you'll want to have "validation/evidence" of each item on your Finanancial Statement to the best of your abilities. If you were to number each item on your NFP, your lawyer will prepare a brief of tabbed indexes with proof of each line item so that they cannot be challenged by your ex. Examples; house evaluation; total of household items, car values, jewelry, etc. You should be starting to gather and keep this information, and out of your husbands grasps.

The comment that your check is his too is a bit strange. He's just trying to get your goat. What he's actually doing is being coy and trying to intimidate you with the possibility of spousal support.

Inheritences can be a bit special in divorces depending upon what the money was used for, and is traceable. If it was put into a joint account, what was spent will be considered joint. What is left could be argued. If you used it buy the matrimonial home, it would be split. If you put it into your pensions, it is yours. It all boils down to the traceability of the monies.

If sale of the home is not agreed to then you'll have to file for divorce, two months to case conference, then a couple of more weeks to file a motion. You could file an urgent motion prior to all of this but as your lawyer will advise you it should only be done on a "very urgent" need.

If at the end of the day he is not willing to sign a separation agreement then you will have to file for divorce. Once in court, actions are forced by either one side or the other via motions to get things done in preparation of a final divorce order.
 
Limer....You might want to limit your use of the lingo from "Blighty" :-) I doubt most understand the the phrase " get your or my goat", the same goes for "winding me up" :-)
 
limer said:
Filing for court: Divorce Application. You can file for Divorce anytime although it will not be granted until a full year of separation has passsed .
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I understand, that in terms of divorce application, the form includes a check box that asks about the length of the separation. So, even if I file with the court, the application will not be reviewed until the one year time period lapses. And then it takes another 30 days until the divorce order is final. So what would be the point of filing earlier? Is it to go on record that I want a divorce? But if my lawyer sent him a letter indicating that I retained her and that I adviced her of the separation date, is that sufficient to "start the clock" on the separation? Or can he claim that we were never separated at that date?

limer said:
Since your ex had full control of the finances you'll want to have "validation/evidence" of each item on your Finanancial Statement to the best of your abilities. If you were to number each item on your NFP, your lawyer will prepare a brief of tabbed indexes with proof of each line item so that they cannot be challenged by your ex. Examples; house evaluation; total of household items, car values, jewelry, etc. You should be starting to gather and keep this information, and out of your husbands grasps.
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I already submitted all my account statements as of valuation date. I also included my income tax and assement paperwork for the last 3 years. She also has my pay stubs, my work pension valuation and the matrimonial home valuation. All these are attached to the Financial Disclosure form 13.1 - which I completed a week ago.

limer said:
If sale of the home is not agreed to then you'll have to file for divorce, two months to case conference, then a couple of more weeks to file a motion. You could file an urgent motion prior to all of this but as your lawyer will advise you it should only be done on a "very urgent" need.
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So does that mean that potentially, I cannot sell the house until my divoce is granted by the court? (i.e. one year from now)???? So am I on the hook to pay all the bills till then???? But that also means that I would not have to pay spausal support until the divorce is granted a year from now????

limer said:
If at the end of the day he is not willing to sign a separation agreement then you will have to file for divorce. Once in court, actions are forced by either one side or the other via motions to get things done in preparation of a final divorce order.
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When you say: if he does not sign the Separation Agreement, I will have to file for divorce - would that be the same as Divorce Application form... or would I be doing something else?
 
Filing for Divorce is the Application.

You can apply at any time for a divorce which at the minimum will not be granted for one year of separation. The motions you enter after your first case conference are "Interim or Interlocutory Motions"; things that require immediate attention by the courts, and before rendering a divorce order. A motion made for the sale of the matrimonial home might be made due to financial circumstances or for equalization purposes. Alternately a preservation order could be made preventing the sale of the house for the kids, etc. The purpose of motions is to have the courts decide matters that need attention that cannot wait for trial or a final divorce order.

I'm assuming here that both of you are still in the matrimonial home. Each of you have equal rights to stay in the home.

Sounds like you've started the clock. Things like sleeping in the same bed, sexual relations, performing as an existing family could restart things.

Bills, mortgages, etc... gotta pay the bills. His sports package you don't want to pay for...hmmm :).

Paying him spousal while your both in the house.... you could play with that one. Give him an allowance? Give him nothing?

Lot's to think about... Just be thoughtful in your decisions as you move forward.
 
Thank you Limer....Its good to know that I could potentially file with the court and then file a motion to potentially get him moving... It just really gets to me that I have been good to him for so many years and he still wants more. I mean I am agreeing to the spliting of the pension and the split of the matrimonial home... The only thing that I am asking for is the spousal support waiver, which I would think that a young-ish, well educationed, healthy male should be ashamed asking for.

And yes, I am living in the house with him, but our lives are completely separate... but that does not stop him yelling at me, calling me names, and accusing me of spending our money (a.k.a my pay cheque)!
 
Just to clarify:

You can file and get an immediate divorce if you file under grounds of adultery or mental or physical abuse/cruelty. You have to have proof of this and/or have your ex sign an affidavit of adultery. (Don't go down this road unless it is something he agrees to or you will find yourself spinning your wheels even longer). After the divorce is granted you have 30 days in which to appeal. Only after that time can you apply for a final divorce certificate.

You can certainly file for a divorce at any time. Do you have a lawyer to assist you?

Its not easy to live in a home where you are subject to verbal abuse. Hope you can get things settled soon.
 
If you have a cooperative ex, once you have financial disclosure, you can do division of assets and equalization. Then you discuss child access and CS is determined from that arrangement. And you may have to discuss SS, depending on your incomes, ability to work and marriage working arrangements. Once you have a separation agreement, you can divide up the assets as agreed (sale of the house is usually at this point) and file jointly for divorce.

If you have an uncooperative ex, you may need to go to court for one or all of those things so you can get a separation agreement ordered by the judge. Then you divide up the assets and file for divorce and it will eventually proceed with or without your ex's consent.

If your ex refuses to do financial disclosure, he is of the uncooperative variety. You can't divide the assets if you don't know what his are.

I suspect he is trying to draw out the process so that he can live rent free in the house longer. Have you closed all your joint accounts? Get rid of his access to your money right away.
 
I would keep a recorder with you at home to record any abuse.

Why has he not worked the past 7 years, when he is young,healthy,educated, and why was it ok then but not now?

It's good that you are willing to give him half the pension and matrimonial home, but he is entitled to it, so you're really not offering him any incentive or anything...especially when you're trying to get out of spousal support, which he is also entitled to. I would either offer a low spousal amount for a short period and hope he signs off on it...or else offer more share of matrimonial home, let him buy you out at a reduced price, offer more share of other assets ... Something that he can see he's getting extra for giving something else up.
 
HappyDays said:
I would keep a recorder with you at home to record any abuse.

Why has he not worked the past 7 years, when he is young,healthy,educated, and why was it ok then but not now?

It's good that you are willing to give him half the pension and matrimonial home, but he is entitled to it, so you're really not offering him any incentive or anything...especially when you're trying to get out of spousal support, which he is also entitled to. I would either offer a low spousal amount for a short period and hope he signs off on it...or else offer more share of matrimonial home, let him buy you out at a reduced price, offer more share of other assets ... Something that he can see he's getting extra for giving something else up.
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HappyDays,
Just felt I needed to respond to your email... He got fired/let go from his previous employment 7 years ago. At first he needed some rest before he started looking for a job, than he did not know what he wanted to do. After a year of him not knowing what to do and spending his days playing computer games, I stepped in. I had lengthy discussion with him about what he likes, and concluded that he loves finances and strategy. At this point I urged him to go for an MBA… I paid for his tests (GMAT) and applications to schools, and then sent him on his merry way to school…. Which was over $70K and I am still paying that off. While in school, he said that he could not work because he needed to concentrate on his school work, and I knew that if he did well, I might get snapped out of school. Granted, he finished his MBA right about the market crash, and that was his explanation as to why he did not get a job. I believed him… and worried about him. But months turned into years, and more years…. And I noticed that most of the day he spends playing computer games. Granted, I do not know what he does during the day while I am at work, but in the evening, he was constantly playing.

In all of these years, I never wanted him to stay home. I have emails, throughout the years, where we argue about him getting any job, and calling him on the amount of time he spends playing games! I also, have emails, where I would send him job postings from government, workopolis, etc. But his explanation was always that he is doing all he can, and that it’s the economy that is at fault. And that he is being discriminated against because he is a white man. Yes, that is exactly what he thinks!

I was raised in a family with no divorces… a woman sticks by her man. And he is very convincing in his speeches about how disadvantaged he is. So I have to admit that for the longest time, I was stupid enough to believe him. And I fully acknowledge that I am at fault here.

As for what is due to him… Well, since I put money from my inheritance into our mortgage, financed his school and I am still paying that debt, and supported him for all these years… I just thought that he would appreciate that, and see that perhaps asking for more is not right. I know legally, he is owed that… but I guess I was hoping that he would have the decency to take the large cash settlement and move on with his life.
 
You are the opposite gender that most hard working other gender wish they had met or will like to be with.

Good luck with this, but it's going to be tough breaking that 7yr bad habit of idleness. There is always a new game out every week to keep this person 'busy' whilst blaming the economy.

I don't know how some people can just do nothing all day, and expect other people to provide and wait on them :rolleyes:


FREEATLAST2013 said:
HappyDays,
Just felt I needed to respond to your email... He got fired/let go from his previous employment 7 years ago. At first he needed some rest before he started looking for a job, than he did not know what he wanted to do. After a year of him not knowing what to do and spending his days playing computer games, I stepped in. I had lengthy discussion with him about what he likes, and concluded that he loves finances and strategy. At this point I urged him to go for an MBA… I paid for his tests (GMAT) and applications to schools, and then sent him on his merry way to school…. Which was over $70K and I am still paying that off. While in school, he said that he could not work because he needed to concentrate on his school work, and I knew that if he did well, I might get snapped out of school. Granted, he finished his MBA right about the market crash, and that was his explanation as to why he did not get a job. I believed him… and worried about him. But months turned into years, and more years…. And I noticed that most of the day he spends playing computer games. Granted, I do not know what he does during the day while I am at work, but in the evening, he was constantly playing.

In all of these years, I never wanted him to stay home. I have emails, throughout the years, where we argue about him getting any job, and calling him on the amount of time he spends playing games! I also, have emails, where I would send him job postings from government, workopolis, etc. But his explanation was always that he is doing all he can, and that it’s the economy that is at fault. And that he is being discriminated against because he is a white man. Yes, that is exactly what he thinks!

I was raised in a family with no divorces… a woman sticks by her man. And he is very convincing in his speeches about how disadvantaged he is. So I have to admit that for the longest time, I was stupid enough to believe him. And I fully acknowledge that I am at fault here.

As for what is due to him… Well, since I put money from my inheritance into our mortgage, financed his school and I am still paying that debt, and supported him for all these years… I just thought that he would appreciate that, and see that perhaps asking for more is not right. I know legally, he is owed that… but I guess I was hoping that he would have the decency to take the large cash settlement and move on with his life.
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Sounds like your inheritance was used towards the matrimonial home which is too bad in your case. One other thought is that loans still outstanding which were for his education (even if they are in your name) will be FULLY on his side of the ledger. What this effectively does is reduce his net assets. This I can see being an argument as you are still paying for it. Your lawyer as you move forward will present a number of scenerios as you two move forward.

With regard to the conduct in the house: Until sale or whatever. One option would be an exclusive possession order which would get him out of the house without going about it the mean way. This of course would then open up the doors to an interim spousal support order. Your lawyer would counter with an imputed income to him to reduce the amount of such an order. You should remember that Spousal Support is not quite like Child Support. Child support is law. With spousal support it will be like he is sueing you for it which puts a higher bar on him as to his entitlement, and need. Your counter of course would be all of the bills, loans, etc. that you are being stuck with.
 
Exclusive possession on what grounds then?


limer said:
With regard to the conduct in the house: Until sale or whatever. One option would be an exclusive possession order which would get him out of the house without going about it the mean way.
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Grounds for exclusive possession can be obtained due to mental/physical cruelty, etc. The bar for exclusive possession I believe is quite high. Exclusive possession can also be given on consent.

Following is from Family Law Act Section 24; Clause 2
Order for exclusive possession: criteria
(3) In determining whether to make an order for exclusive possession, the court shall consider,
(a) the best interests of the children affected;
(b) any existing orders under Part I (Family Property) and any existing support orders;
(c) the financial position of both spouses;
(d) any written agreement between the parties;
(e) the availability of other suitable and affordable accommodation; and
(f) any violence committed by a spouse against the other spouse or the children. R.S.O. 1990, c. F.3, s. 24 (3).
 
That is the missing puzzle for the suggestion to the OP.....

Just in case they didn't realize that they can't just say "I want exclusive possession" without a real justification i.e making crap up won't fly if you can't back it up
 
Limer:

I'm always confused when people give advice to acquire exclusive possession with an emergency motion prior to a case conference.

Judges do not like ex parte motions and they should only be used in the event of an extreme circumstance because they are basically in place to help litigants in dangerous situations and they circumvent the normal divorce process. If you file one unsuccessfully in a contested divorce, I guarantee you, you will taint the remainder of your case.

This OP has given zero information regarding an abuse situation by which she would need to file this type of motion. Playing video games..and the occasional yelling match isn't grounds for an ex parte motion. So unless you're advising her to fabricate allegations, I'm not sure why you think she has grounds here.

Personally, reading her situation...the best thing to do would be to mediate but he sounds like he may not do so because he's a slug and there's no benefit to him speed things along.

So given that...the OP will have to file for a contested divorce...wait for response....wait for a case conference...and then file a motion for the disposition of the home. I'd say...that's somewhere around a 6 month process.

That's the reality.

I have a great deal of sympathy for this OP...she sounds like a very nice person who's been taken advantage of and has a ways to go yet to rid herself of this leech of a guy.
 
For example, he originally agreed to waive spouse support and equalization payment (work pension), as well as, he initially agreed to list the house for sale. The lawyer requested that we both complete a Financial Disclosure Form 13.1, which I was completely fine with, despite the fact that I have way more to loose than he does (i.e. pensions, investments, etc). Well, he refused to complete the Financial Disclosure saying that its not required by law. Is that true? Is there a way to force him to do it? Is there a way I am can make him sign a Separation Agreement? At this point, I am not even fighting for the waiver of the spousal support... I just want something on paper, so I know where I stand, as he is constantly changing his mind.
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As per this, I think you're at the point where you really have to ask yourself whether mediation with this person will work. Its hard for anyone else to help with this because you know his personality. Also, he sounds like he's a slug with a healthy gaming addiction who will take advantage of any given situation...so here's your choice and the risks associated:

1. Mediated Divorce
Pros:
- Its considerably cheaper with regard to legal fees
- Its considerably shorter
- Although you may have to compromise a bit more on making him a deal, the net result is more favorable
- Less overall stress and animosity (maybe)
Cons:
- If it fails, you're out the expense, time, and frustration of the mediation (which can be costly) and still have the now added time, expense, and frustration of a contested divorce.
- Its going to be considerably harder for him to accept a fair imputed income amount. He's going to claim that he can't find a good job now because he's been out of the workforce for some time.
- You're going to have to put up with a lot of stress of him waffling, changing his mind, jerking your chain and trying to manipulate you before you finally get him to sign. You may lose your patience.
- You may need to switch attorneys depending on whether or not you hired a lawyer that handles both types.

2. Contested Divorce
Pros:
- Its a much more straightforward process
- You get to cut off all of his bullcrap immediately...ie, not paying his extracurricular bills like cell phones, etc...that will be enjoyable.
- He's going to have a tough time with legal fees and given his educational background, lack of kids, and the fact that he's part owner of a home...he's probably not qualified for legal aid.
- After the initial filing and case conference...you can immediately put in a motion for disposition of the home and get it sold so you don't have to put up with him being in your way anymore.
- You have a very very good chance of being successful in imputing a wage to him due to his qualifications to minimize/eliminate Spousal support.
- Your case should be fairly simple since you don't have kids...so once you're done with working out your separation agreement, you'll be around the time requirement to be granted a divorce.
Cons:
- You're going to piss him off (personally, with this slug I'd list this under the "pros"...but you'll have to deal with living with him)
- You're going to have to deal with an in-home separation because you have to wait for after the case conference to file the house disposition motion.
- Its considerably more expensive with regard to legal fees
- Its considerably lengthier (although mediation can be too and you have an easier case without kids). And yes, you should file immediately if you're going this route.
- You have to take time off for court dates.
- You won't "win"...you'll still be compromising...sometimes more than you can anticipate.
- You won't be double paying for a failed mediation
- You may need to switch attorneys to find a good litigation attorney


There's probably more to these lists..but that's what I can think of right now.

I'd really discuss this with your attorney and really really think about the likelihood of mediation being successful. My personal opinion after reading what you've posted so far is that you're headed for a contested divorce...but I may be being pessimistic.
 
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