Child support

[chiefer]

I need a little advice,my wife and i have been separated for 3 months. Neither of us has seen any sort of legal counsel. I have asked her to work together to obtain some kind of settlement between us instead of spending a fortune on lawyers
I have been locked out in a labour dispute for 9 months unable to obtain any kind of EI benefits,my only source of income has been strike fund witch can not be deemed as taxable income! My wife makes 25 000 a year,and we have two children. The two years prior to the lockout i made over 90 000 a year,with overtime.My base salary is about 60 000.
Now 9 months after the labour dispute i am now returning to work. I have not worked in the last 9 months because i decided to return to school and obtain a trade.This decision although great for my families future as left us with about 45 000 in debt,credit lines and credit card debt.
Now here is where i am a little lost 3 years prior two this we sold are home and moved in two my wifes parents home witch they purchased on the condition that if we paid heat,hydro and property tax that we would inherit the home on there passing.In that time i have invested money and time into this home.I left with nothing after she told me to leave i have left with nothing but a couch,computer and a old tv. Now i am forced to move back home an hour away from my children without a home and broke! My question based on these facts is what is a fair agreement? How much child support do i pay? Is her income accounted into the equation? And does are agreement with her parents have any bearing on this? How does this debt get divided if at all. And if she decides to obtain lawyers am i entitled to pay her fees to? I just want to be fair and provide for my children. The less i can do without lawyers will benefit the both of us as well as are children!Your input would be greatly appreciated,thanks!

 

[NBDad]

Now 9 months after the labour dispute i am now returning to work. I have not worked in the last 9 months because i decided to return to school and obtain a trade.This decision although great for my families future as left us with about 45 000 in debt,credit lines and credit card debt.

Debt was used to live while you waited out a labor dispute and returned to school to obtain a trade to continue to support your family. She's obligated for 50% of the debt,and entitled to 50% of the assets.

Now here is where i am a little lost 3 years prior two this we sold are home and moved in two my wifes parents home witch they purchased on the condition that if we paid heat,hydro and property tax that we would inherit the home on there passing.In that time i have invested money and time into this home.I left with nothing after she told me to leave i have left with nothing but a couch,computer and a old tv. Now i am forced to move back home an hour away from my children without a home and broke!

Do you have that agreement in writing? Was there a legal document signed by her parents indicating this? Did you make any profit on the home you sold? Did you take a loss? If you took a profit, was any of it invested into her parent's home?

Now, can you PROVE that?

My question based on these facts is what is a fair agreement? How much child support do i pay?

It depends on a couple things. How often do YOU have the children? If it's UNDER 40% of the time, you should be paying table amounts of CS based on your current income of 45,000, and a proportional share of special expenses (ie. daycare, etc).

Is her income accounted into the equation?

Only for the purposes of determining the share of special expenses. If you have the children 40% or more of the time, then it will pay a part in determining support based on table offset. (you can search the forums here for what that means)

And does are agreement with her parents have any bearing on this

Unless you have that in writing, no. If you have it in writing...maybe? Probably not worth fighting over though.

How does this debt get divided if at all.

Assets - Debts = Net Income (or net loss) ....divide by 2.

And if she decides to obtain lawyers am i entitled to pay her fees to?

Nope. Though you can be hit with costs if you are being unreasonable. (but she can as well)

I just want to be fair and provide for my children. The less i can do without lawyers will benefit the both of us as well as are children!Your input would be greatly appreciated,thanks

Split debt 50-50, split assets 50-50. Pay either table amount of support or offset table amounts of support, depending on how often YOU have the children. (start this NOW, do not wait for a judge's order or you CAN be hit with retroactive support). File the forms with CRA to make sure your marital status is reflected properly. (Will help you establish the date of actual separation if that is ever contested.)

 

[chiefer]

Thanks for your input,it is greatly appreciated! We are on good terms as of now,and neither of us will contest the separation date. I have not received my first pay yet but will defiantly pay her proportionately to what the guidelines are.
Since my shifts have not been determined yet , i do not have the children 40% of the time but that will change i hope soon once i finalize my living situation,and finish my schooling in august!
We did not have a written document with her parents but i can prove thru banking records that this was our arrangement! I do not want any compensation for our arrangement just wondering if i have any legal leverage when it comes to giving her SS.
As far as the home we sold we invested some of that money in her parents place and the rest made us debt free until this work situation! Our credit line was used to for living expenses while i was in school!
Can this be done (separation) without lawyers or is this a bad idea? If we come up with an agreement is it legal! Thanks again!

 

[NBDad]

You can certainly work out an agreement between the two of you without going through lawyers...HOWEVER you both need independant legal advice to make the agreement stick. If both sides don't have independant legal advice, the agreement isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

Spousal is tricky, you may or may not owe her anything in terms of "spousal support". Pay for an hour or time with a lawyer who have the software. Remember spousal only comes into play if her Net Disposable Income is under 45% of yours.

 

[chiefer]

Well thought i would post an update on my situation. I have been back to work since april. Finishing my education in september of this year and still buried in debt from a 9 month lockout at work. My ex and i have not yet seeked any legal counsel to my knowledge and are getting along quite well considering.I have paid her cs since my first pay since i have got back to work to the tune of 800 a month for two children that i have 50 percent of the time. I moved into an apartment that is 5 min from my oldest sons school and only 5 min away from there mothers residence! I have also paid her insurance on her automobile until october of this year at 150 a month and her cell phone bill of 30 a month. She also receives a child care benifit of 100 a month and i let her keep our HST rebate. I do not pay her spousel as of yet and have maintained all our debt since we seperated. She has also kept almost all our property furniture,appliances,electronics etc!
I have made 50 grand over the last 2 years and she has made 30. Am i paying her to much? I am not in a financial situation to afford a lawyer right now.But and finding quite hard to pay her this support and maintain my own living situation as well as carrying the debt we incurred over my lockout. Realistically i should of stayed at my dads(50min away) until i got back on my feet but i wanted to be close to my children. i think its important that there lives stay as normal as possible thru all of this! Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dadtotheend]

On the face of it, you're paying way too much.

The Ontario CS guidelines provide that support for two kids on a $50K income is $753/mth and for a $30K income it is $444/mth. If you have them 50% of the time, as the higher income you pay her the difference of $209/mth. If there are section 7 expenses they are paid proportionate to your respective incomes, but it's hard to see how they would so high as to take you to a monthly amount of $800.

On top of all that you are shouldering 100% of the debt load.

How in heaven's name did you not realize that you are paying way too much in CS? With all due respect you were internet savvy enough to have started this thread 8 months ago.

How come you couldn't go here

Federal Child Support Amounts: Simplified Tables

and figure out the CS on your own? Or did you not understand that there is an offset method available when shared parenting is in effect?

If I were you, I would drop the CS to around $300-350 right NOW and explain to her why you are doing it. Be prepared for the shit storm and possibility that she will threaten to deny access to you in order to retain the full table amount.

 

[Mess]

dtte, let me rephrase that. He is not paying to much. The set-off means that he pays her the full amount, she pays him her full amount. She is not paying her share. She is the deadbeat.

They have 50/50, she has no more right to withhold access than he does; if she makes such a threat his counter is to keep the kids with him until she smartens up. Any make up time can be spread out over the next year, like an extra half day a week. This should be made clear in writing of course.

There should be proper equalization done splitting the assets after the debtload is accounted for. GET ON THAT. There is a legal time limit, don't just sit on your hands and then complain later that you were ripped off.

If your income is 50 and hers is 30 there is no spousal support. Period. Just laugh if she or her lawyer suggests it. If you have to keep the full debt load, file for undue hardship and reduce support payments.

 

[chiefer]

Thanks. Its my fault that i did not realize that 50/50 custody of the our children had such a huge impact on CS. I guess i have been trying to make this as easy on the children as possible. By not fighting and causing a scene every time we see one another i would say i have achieved what set out to do!
How far back our are annual incomes used for the CS calculation? Prior to me being lockout at work 3 years ago i made just under 100 grand with overtime! Now with custody of the children 50 percent of the time i have zero chance at working overtime ever again! Do they calculate on base earnings or is past overtime included? She was on maternity when my income was that high so is all this taken into consideration? These are both situations that will not occur again! I am just wondering how a judge would look at this?

 

[billm]

dtte, let me rephrase that. He is not paying to much. The set-off means that he pays her the full amount, she pays him her full amount. She is not paying her share. She is the deadbeat....

This is a silly thing to say. He is paying too much. In a set off method, the greater income earner pays the difference, you don't each pay the other.

 

[chiefer]

One more question! My wife decided to leave me during a lock out at my place of employment .She still had her job through out this while i looked after the kids and re educated myself part time.We had a new vehicle at the time and i was driving a junker. When she gave me the boot we were tapped financially i told her i could make the car payment for a few months but then we would have to sell the new vehicle! She sold it after the separation and traded it in on a lesser vehicle and then got a 10 thousand dollar credit line to buy the other vehicle! I am i responsible for that credit line? We still have a credit line of 20 thousand jointly that we used during the work stoppage to keep us a float. I have been paying interest on it since we separated.

 

[Mess]

This is a silly thing to say. He is paying too much. In a set off method, the greater income earner pays the difference, you don't each pay the other.

bill, it's not silly. If he walks into court looking to reduce his CS he looks like a cheapskate, and her lawyer will play that up. You emphasise that she is the deadbeat who isn't covering her share of the child's support. The set off method is that each pays the other, that is the formula; the fact that only one pays the differerence is of course more convenient. But the other party is responsible for their share of the support and this has to be correctly calculated. If they aren't "paying" then yes they are the dead beat.

Technically she owes him Child Support arrears and he has every right to ask for them.

 

[InterprovincialParents]

Here is an example of the guidlelines...first column is your gross income, then the amount you pay for one child or two children in second and third colums...

50000

462 ​

753 ​

50100

463 ​

754 ​

50200

464 ​

756 ​

50300

465 ​

757 ​

50400

466 ​

759 ​

50500

467 ​

760 ​

50600

467 ​

762 ​

50700

468 ​

763 ​

50800

469 ​

765 ​

50900

470 ​

766 ​

51000

471 ​

768 ​

51100

472 ​

769 ​

51200

473 ​

771 ​

51300

474 ​

772 ​

51400

475 ​

774 ​

51500

476 ​

775 ​

51600

477 ​

777 ​

51700

478 ​

778 ​

51800

479 ​

780 ​

51900

480 ​

781 ​

52000

481 ​

783 ​

After that, you also share any section 7 expenses, based on income. With a combined total income of 80k, you would pay 62.5% of AFTER TAX expenses. Because childcare and sports activities have both federal and provincial rebate implications, you would not pay 62.5 % of the total amount paid, but of the amount paid after any tax rebates are calculated. FLIC can calculate these numbers for you, as can any lawyer (there is a special software that they ensure the public cannot access, go figure).

If you have overpaid, you can ask for a return, although they typically grant that by reducing your monthly amount by `x` until the overpayment is repaid.

As for the debt, both are required to take on half if it was a matrimonial debt, taken on prior to separation...so she will also owe you her half of all payments made to date...

 

[InterprovincialParents]

damn formatting...the tables can be found here...along with a guide on how to use them.

Federal Child Support Amounts: Simplified Tables