Child Support - Special Expenses

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JustWondering

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Hello,

I'm wondering if there typically is any limit to what can be claimed under extraordinary expenses for child support. My ex has my child in over $500 a month in extra-curricular activities. This seems on the excessive side to me. Any thoughts on the matter would be great!

Thanks!
 
JustWondering said:
Hello,

I'm wondering if there typically is any limit to what can be claimed under extraordinary expenses for child support. My ex has my child in over $500 a month in extra-curricular activities. This seems on the excessive side to me. Any thoughts on the matter would be great!

Thanks!
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Generally extra-ordinary expenses are based off of each parents ability to pay and need for the expense.

Lets say you each make $75k and the expense is $100, then it wouldn't be deemed extra-ordinary. But the same $100 expense to a custodial parent who makes $20k, it would be extra-ordinary.

The next question is the need for the child to be involved. Was the activity prescribed by a professional, recommended by the school for development purposes etc? Or is it that they are being registered for every sport/activity under the sun? Or is it daycare, which would be justifiable.

For you, the $500 would depend on a) the nature of the activities, b) incomes and who is paying the proportional amount and c) did your ex discuss such activities and receive your consent to register the child.

The last point c) may make a difference if the activities conflict with your parenting time and if they are creating an unnecessary financial burden. And I mean unnecessary is if the child is registered in a half dozen different activities, none of which were recommended or required by the school or a professional (doctor etc). If you didn't consent to registering your child in the activity which was not necessary or required by the school, your ex shouldn't have a reasonable expectation to be reimbursed.

But if it is for school, medical reasons or daycare, you're probably on the hook.
 
Hi HammerDad,

Thanks for the prompt reply!
These activities are in no way day-care related, and they are as you said, every activity under the sun. There is no need whatsoever for the amount of activities and they were never recommended by any professional, nor was I ever consulted about them. On 75k, my salary is somewhat close to this, what would you think would be considered an acceptable amount of special expense?

Thanks again!
 
You two know your kid better than us.

Personally having my kid registered "in every activity under the sun" is excessive, especially when the child already lives a busy life just due to having two homes.

But if the kid loves the activity (e.g. hockey mad kids playing three times a week, AAA level) maybe that's good.

It's individual. I don't think you can answer your question based soley on $$$.
 
My ex was rejistering my kid, so she gets me to pay for it, not becasue the kid wanted it. Out of spite. My ex thought that she is the proffessional and could tell me how high I can jump. It's a for mof manipulation. Don't pay for it.
 
I agree with DTTE.

You know your child better then us and what their interests are. You also know if they are gifted and in a competitve program. If your kid is awesome in hockey or dance, it will be much more expensive then a recreational program and will also benefit your child in the long run.

But if you feel that the activities are excessive, like Monday is Dance/Hockey, Tuesday is Music, Wednesday is Swimming, Thursday is more hockey/dance, Saturday is another couple lessons, etc etc. you may have argument to cut them down.

I would also talk to the child to see if they enjoy being in each activity. Talk to other parents, see what is normal for their children and with regards to the number of activities registered and the costs. It could be your child would be just as happy (and depending on skill level benefit more) if they were registered in a lesser program.

I would also tell the ex, that unless I provide my previous consent to registration, I will not be obligated to pay for. Notwithstanding that, unless I consent, I will not feel obligated to attend with the child on my parenting time (but again, that leads to how much the child enjoys it and then I would make my best efforts).
 
Roni said:
My ex was rejistering my kid, so she gets me to pay for it, not becasue the kid wanted it. Out of spite. My ex thought that she is the proffessional and could tell me how high I can jump. It's a for mof manipulation. Don't pay for it.
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Are you saying that the registration was solely out of spite? And that the child derived zero benefit from the program?
 
Yeah, there is no "limit" per se for these kinds of expenses, if it gets as far as a judge, they will determine each case based on the circumstances. Needs of the child, ability of the parent to pay, and prior history pre- separation.

BUT - unless your separation agreement states otherwise, the "extras" must be agreed upon prior to incurring the expense if both parents are expected to contribute.

One parent cannot just enroll a child in activities and send the other parent the bill.
 
In my particular case it was just signing up for activity after activity, nothing to do with spite. It has trickled up to more and more activities as the years have passed by. Anytime I was consulted I would always say that there's no way to have it all - something has to be given up to add more of something else.

My calculations would put me paying close to $950/month on approx. 75,000 salary. Does this sound at all high, because it literally blows my mind that I might have to fork over that kinda of cash? This is likely going to go to court. Anyone think a judge would find that amount excessive? It'll cripple me financially.
 
Yeah, there is no "limit" per se for these kinds of expenses, if it gets as far as a judge, they will determine each case based on the circumstances. Needs of the child, ability of the parent to pay, and prior history pre- separation.

BUT - unless your separation agreement states otherwise, the "extras" must be agreed upon prior to incurring the expense if both parents are expected to contribute.
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So all you have to do is not agree that they be given the extras and you are not liable? I think not.

And interesting arguement being suggested in a case of a friend is the heavy involvement in out side activities is having a detrimental effect on the schooling of the children of a friend. His arguement that he will be going to court on is the children should be home more either in his house or the mothers doing what will be most important to the best interest of the child in insuring a good education to prepare for life long skills...as opposed to playing games 5 nights a week and not succeeding or doing well in classes as they are not prepared for classes due to the outside activities.

There is already recognition in some case law that hockey is often frivolous and rarely going to result in any concrete future....
 
firstouting said:
There is already recognition in some case law that hockey is often frivolous and rarely going to result in any concrete future....
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While I don't play hockey and can't skate, to say that sports and being active is "frivolous and won't result in any concrete future" is IMO a broad an untrue statement.

Organized sports have long been known to create team building attitudes, raise self esteem and not just to mention the physical fitness level in a day where kids becoming fatter at an alarming rate. I will agree that excessive amounts of activities to the detriment of academics is not beneficial. It is a matter of finding a balance between activities and sports.

As for the OP, without more knowledge of the activities, the age of the child, the wants of the child and whether these activities are affecting their academics, it is impossible for us to suggest that the amounts are unreasonable. It is more then I spend of my D5, which is only about $500-600 a year on gymnastics and dance combined.
 
I'm friends with several families whose children have played sports and then been offered scholarships in universities. They aren't going to compete at an elite level, they aren't going to become professionals and probably won't coach, or maybe coach little league when they become parents. It isn't about career, but the scholarships helped repay some the cost of the teams they were on as teenagers.
Living in the inner city I also see what happens to teens with too much time and energy, and the money invested in sports and other activities is money that, no exageration, you might end up spending on legal fees instead if they end up getting in more and more trouble.
You can't put an exact dollar value on what you get back out of sports and rec programs, and each kid and family is different, and yes there is a point where it is too much, or there are more affordable options, but it is never completely frivolous.
 
JustWondering said:
Correct: $658 + $292
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So you're already on the hook for the $658 regardless. It's the extra $292 that's at issue here and, moreover (I trust), whether the child needs it. That extra $3,504/year isn't chump change, but if you believed in the programs you would find a way to make it work at your income.

This sounds to me to be not about money for you as much as whether the kids is benefitting, or even suffering.

If you feel that the kid is being overloaded, then bring that argument and be prepared to back it up e.g. kid is tired, grades are suffering, no down time, etc.

firstouting said:
So all you have to do is not agree that they be given the extras and you are not liable? I think not.

And interesting arguement being suggested in a case of a friend is the heavy involvement in out side activities is having a detrimental effect on the schooling of the children of a friend. His arguement that he will be going to court on is the children should be home more either in his house or the mothers doing what will be most important to the best interest of the child in insuring a good education to prepare for life long skills...as opposed to playing games 5 nights a week and not succeeding or doing well in classes as they are not prepared for classes due to the outside activities.

There is already recognition in some case law that hockey is often frivolous and rarely going to result in any concrete future....
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In my view, that argument definitely has merit. Putting kids in activities all the time is too busy. I think the whole "soccer mom" stereotype woke us all up to that a decade or so ago. And when there are two homes involved, that adds to the "busy mix".

Kids need down time too, or free time without structure where they can chill out. There's even an argument that constant structure doesn't teach kids to be responsible for their own stimulation.

Even sole custodial parents are required to "consult" with the other parent, but if there is disagreement and the other parent takes it to court, the custodial parent's views will be given greater weight.

So no, it isn't just a case where all you have to do is say no and the section 7 expenses are off the table.

On the other hand it's not a slam dunk for the custodial parent either. At the end of the day, the activities have to be in the kid's best interest.
 
In our case, Mom has the kids 3 out of 4 weekends in the school year. I pick them up from her house Sunday evenings and take them home, and they are in bed an hour so after getting home. On her weekends she picks them up on Friday after school.

With Sunday being a write-off and one weeknight dinner at the grandparents, that leaves three other nights for homework, activities and down time.

The kids are in gymnastics one of those nights. We go right after school at 3:30pm and don't get out of there until 6:30pm because they don't go in the exact same time slots. After dinner at the restaurant (no way I'm doing a home cooked meal starting at 7:00pm) we might go to the mall for a bit, or straight home. Either way, there's not much time after gymnastics before bed.

But you can see that more than one night a week for us is TOO MUCH. Each family to it's own, everyone's unique.

Like Mess and HammerDad, I strongly agree that some extra-cirricular activity is in order. In addition to the benefits already mentioned for the kids, it integrates the parents and kids together socially. In the summer after baseball, we would often go to someone's house for a swim with a bunch of kids and where the parents shot the breeze around the pool, or whatever. Great stuff!!
 
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Oh and BTW, last night's down time was spent getting a Christmas tree and decorating it.

Catching some Christmas!!! More great stuff!!

Merry Christmas!!
 
we have always stuck to one activity at a time.

mind you though - one of those is rep level hockey - so from September to March we are 3-5 times per week sitting in an arena.

but, the focus is definitely on what the child can handle, what they are intrested in, and balancing that with the homework crap.

we are lucky, we are given all the school work at the beginning of the month and we can schedule it in pretty easily .... 5 straight days at the rink usually means 3 straight days at home to catch up.

the key for me is to be flexible - maybe it's going straight from school to the rink and eating fries while writing an essay :D I like fries. Some may not think this is OK - it's not "super parent" standards - but, eh - I'll make him eat broccoli tomorrow.

So.... back to OP - you can put your foot down about all the activities. It may not get you anywhere, and it may look like it's all about the money. But, I have a question - are any/all of these activities scheduled on your time? Have you always agreed to take them to the activity? You can always try to go the route of - "Don't schedule so much on my time, I would like to hang with little Janie" Maybe?
 
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