Can you really settle this case?

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WorkingDAD

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Hello All

As many of you know I have second trial scheduled for Jan 2013. As I informed you all before our Judge (who seized him self after trial number one) removed himself as trial Judge for trial #2 for very well understandable reasons even it means much more work for me.

During our last meeting with a judge he invited both of us to have settlement conference and try to settle this case. He said he has some ideas how we can avoid trial.

I am very interested in hearing his Honour ideas as I did not want go to trial and now being recently laid-off do not want it even more as I have much more important things to do than preparing for trial. It's not like I am afraid to go to trial or I have something to hide. I know I did not do what she will try to prove I did and I pretty sure that I can prove it close to beyond reasonable doubt.

But in reality how you can settle this case? I think that most realistic offer from me would be

1. Mom to undergo complete psychiatric evaluation and treatment following the result if prescribed. Need for that is quite obvious and reason for that to hopefully after she get help she will stop doing what she is doing hence continuing hurting little boy.

2. Mom to have supervised access until child can clearly understand what is going on and prevent actions of other parent which would lead to abduction (what I meant is that kid can tell at least on the border his name and tell that his dad need to be notified asap - you got a point). And what that age would be ? 6-7 years old?

* Honestly looking now what she is using those visits for (calling CAS, police, just continuing to lie etc..) I am not even sure she should have it until #1 complete.

Mom on other hand think that there is no even remote possibility to settle. She clearly describe her position regarding settlement conference in her recent communication:

Dear Mr.*********.

It seems to me that you are starting realize that what you done is not a joke anymore. What I can't get that why you want to settle anything in first place and reason, why I cant get it is that, person , who truly "fears" abduction, will never settle to anything. That person SHOULD ANd WOULD go to COURT and SECURE child!!!.

But we all know that, you never feared any abduction and there is plenty of prove to that. You did all this circus to take child from me , to make child and me suffer, and not to pay money for child. As CS was first thing on your mind to ask. In any case. You made very serious accusation/allegations and you should pay for it. Your poor judgment is not in child best interest and that is why custody should transfer to me. If you want to settle without court, give me my time back, my health, child health.... can you do that? Of coarse you cant. Can you compensate all what *Son* and I lost due to your insanity? Of coarse not. So what can you "offer" to "settle". Let hear you out.

I will not leave this as is. Or you think I will? Even ,if you give me at least my lost time ( which will reduce your time to EOW and wens-days) min 2 year(I did math) and full custody of *Son*, as that would be in his best interest. Even this will not stop me to go to trial ( to both trials). I will never leave this, as is. You should take ALL responsibilities for what you did. So, you can go to his Honor and talk. He likes you and will give you perfect advice. I am not required and his honor will dismiss you ( as he clearly said, I may not attend if I wish , he will understand me). There is NOTHING you CAN offer me.


best regards
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Apparently in her mind there is nothing worse can happened to her than what she has now. It also obvious that she look on trial #2 as possibility to get back what she lost during trial #1. It also clear for me that she do not even that she may loose even what she get after trial #1.

So question is how you would settle this case considering all history? I should agree with her on one point nothing really give me 100% security that she will not take off with him until he can say no himself or notify appropriate institutions. And not I do not want to put bracelet on him with GPS tracking device.


I would appreciate any comments on the matter.

Thank you,
WD
 
By her own admission she will not settle and wants a trial. I would put an offer to settle together that is realistic but recognize that she will never accept it.
Sucks for all of you and your families as she does not seem to realize or care that you have been the only one contributing financially for her and for your son. It is in her best interest to settle so you can focus on this but sadly she won't listen.
 
Howany trials is she entitled to? Why the 1st trial is not final? Or is this apeal? And wasnt she on legal aid i dont think legal aid let her bill them 50k
 
Make a offer to settle have it legitimate and showing more access after psychiatric assessment and counselling.She will kick it to the curb but if you show expanded access after she jumps through the necessary hoops it looks even better for you.Does she have anger issues?Cas does some counselling services;suggest she do a course .You have your sons passport, and all identification papers already don't you?
 
Our ex's have many similar qualities but I will only ask you a few questions:

Is she always right, it is all your fault and she never takes no for an answer? So here you are thinking she will never stop and it will be at any cost to get what she believe's is her Right.

What you need to look for is some way to have the courts recognize her as one of the court's abusers; have the court slap some form of restriction on her for filing cases which have little to no merit? Perhaps it will be only then that you shall begin to settle down and put the legal in check and well put all that lost energy into your son and his life. -- Just some thoughts.....

Sorry - I would also think to what level will she go? Will she take the child? Given how far this has become I would consider strongly about what steps make sense to protect your child from what you do suggest. (this is something for you to bear - for myself, I no longer know to what new low will my ex stoop down to to get what she feels or wants)
 
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Working Dad:

Are Offers to Settle not supposed to be your "best" offer on the table? The whole point behind the offer to settle, is that the offer is "so" reasonable that the opposing party would be stupid not to consider it? The idea is that you have bent over backwards to try and settle with the opposing party, in an effort to avoid trial and further litigation.

I totally agree with you by the way, but I think your proposal should be your request for relief and not your offer to settle. How likely is she to admit she has mental health issues and agree to seek help?

You would be better served to approach it from the perspective of the best interest of the child, and doing what you can to establish healthy relationship with mom and child. Perhaps sweeten the deal by offering to pay for this mental health assessment and necessary support. Remember this is your offer to settle.

In respect to the "flight/abuduction" risk, (in your offer to settle), you could state, that neither party is permitted to travel with child outside of the province, until child is of a certain age. I know that sucks for you and child, but at least it reduces the risk of abduction and is voiced in a way that it applies to you both.

The Offer to Settle will only serve one purpose in your case, which is to determine costs in the end. The more attractive and generous the offer, the better. It is not likely that she will settle? But you know your case well, and in the end it has to be something that you can stomach without giving too much away.
 
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Do offers to settle have to give anything away? Could it not mirror the last court ruling, perhaps as suggested here is to put a logical path for the other party to work towards better access given what has gone on, the decisions already made and best if it could be worded in such a manner as to wanting this court stuff to end?? It would not mean restricting access which is wrong but to bring perspective to what her actions is doing to the child and to proposing something that is in the child's interest in the end?
 
Nadia said:
Working Dad:

Are Offers to Settle not supposed to be your "best" offer on the table? The whole point behind the offer to settle, is that the offer is "so" reasonable that the opposing party would be stupid not to consider it? The idea is that you have bent over backwards to try and settle with the opposing party, in an effort to avoid trial and further litigation.
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I totally agree with you by the way, but I think your proposal should be your request for relief and not your offer to settle. How likely is she to admit she has mental health issues and agree to seek help?
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Very unlikely.

You would be better served to approach it from the perspective of the best interest of the child, and doing what you can to establish healthy relationship with mom and child. Perhaps sweeten the deal by offering to pay for this mental health assessment and necessary support. Remember this is your offer to settle.
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I would pay for that if I have any money but I do not have it.

In respect to the "flight/abuduction" risk, (in your offer to settle), you could state, that neither party is permitted to travel with child outside of the province, until child is of a certain age. I know that sucks for you and child, but at least it reduces the risk of abduction and is voiced in a way that it applies to you both.
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this will not change anything. Why would some court order stop her? She did not care about court order in past so why would she do it when she try to leave Canada for good? And we actually have some provisions in order regarding that.

The Offer to Settle will only serve one purpose in your case, which is to determine costs in the end. The more attractive and generous the offer, the better. It is not likely that she will settle? But you know your case well, and in the end it has to be something that you can stomach without giving too much away.
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murphyslaw said:
Make a offer to settle have it legitimate and showing more access after psychiatric assessment and counselling.She will kick it to the curb but if you show expanded access after she jumps through the necessary hoops it looks even better for you.Does she have anger issues?Cas does some counselling services;suggest she do a course .You have your sons passport, and all identification papers already don't you?
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Kid do not have Canadian passport yet. Problem is that she can obtain Ukrainian passport at any time for her and for kid or put kid in her passport and nothing I can do about that. I even can not get info from embassy as of did she applied for Citizenship for him.

Look at Watkins case. From what I know he had all put in place what you possible can to prevent it and she still took them. just drove to US. than flue to Germany and than Poland.
 
Thats where you need to make sure you have the birth cert .Even to get any European passport you will need the birth cert.If you are on the birthcert, you will have had to sign for the passport too if she is getting a European Union one although it seems that Travel Papers are what they use for small children in Ukraine.
Perhaps a more diplomatic approach could work.Time to get talking to local MPs to see if you could get them to contact the Ukrainian embassy in Toronto?You may go perhaps to your Embassy too to see if they can wrangle some information on these travel papers.
Personally I would get my ass up to Toronto and talk to them myself.These guys working in Embassys have very cushy jobs and don't like diplomatic incidents-they may work with you.Good luck with this ,I know exactly how you feel.Nobody wants to end up in Stephan Watkins situation.
 
Some good advice Murphys Law.

But I do not believe Ukraine is part of the European Union. In order to get a Ukranian Passport, all she will need to do is apply using her nationality. Send her own birth certificate in along with childs. She does not need to share anything else in respect to separation/divorce proceedings.

Not to scare you Working Dad, but in my experience staff at the airports in Canada do not question parents if they are leaving the country. I have only been questioned when we have returned and are trying to get back into the country.
 
WorkingDAD said:
It seems to me that you are starting realize that what you done is not a joke anymore. What I can't get that why you want to settle anything in first place and reason, why I cant get it is that, person , who truly "fears" abduction, will never settle to anything. That person SHOULD ANd WOULD go to COURT and SECURE child!!!
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When did the person in question acquire the ability to "mind read"? Breaking apart the above quote from the person in question one would question how they have come to the conclusion "you are starting to realize" anything? That is a wide sweeping assumption to be making about anyone.

Secondly, rational people want to settle things. Highly conflicted people don't. They want to fight it out in court and would never make (or consider) an offer to settle.

Actually, someone who is concerned about abduction would seek remedies to prevent the action from happening through the court, and seek settlement in the matter. Any well rounded person would seek settlement even in a complex matter such as this.

WorkingDAD said:
But we all know that, you never feared any abduction and there is plenty of prove to that.
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Collectively who is "we" in this statement made by the person in question? Seriously question who the "we" are in this. Is this you and the other parent? You the other parent and the court system? You the other parent and society?

Who is the other party the person in question is including in the statement of "we"?

WorkingDAD said:
You did all this circus to take child from me , to make child and me suffer, and not to pay money for child.
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One only has to read the already posted case law in the matter to realize the reality of the situation at hand. The person in question is stating explicitly that you are (a) doing this for vengeance and (b) it is all your fault and (c) that you are trying to abuse (make one suffer) for something.

WorkingDAD said:
As CS was first thing on your mind to ask. In any case. You made very serious accusation/allegations and you should pay for it.
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This statement is all about seeking vengeance against you and contains a threat: "you should pay for it".

WorkingDAD said:
Your poor judgment is not in child best interest and that is why custody should transfer to me.
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This contains a personal insult to your "judgement" and what vengeance the court should inflict on you on behalf of the person in question.

WorkingDAD said:
If you want to settle without court, give me my time back, my health, child health.... can you do that?
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Note the use of "my" in the statement. It is very clear and explicitly stated as:

"my time back" - Access time is the child's right and not that of the access parent.
"my health" - How does one even give back health? One's health and well being is in their own personal domain and control. If the person in question wants better health there is a whole health care system out there waiting to help with any issues regarding their health care.

WorkingDAD said:
Of coarse you cant. Can you compensate all what *Son* and I lost due to your insanity? Of coarse not. So what can you "offer" to "settle". Let hear you out.
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Emotionally abusive statement if there ever was one. You were just called "insane" which is emotionally abusive. Calling anyone "insane" in such a manner is psychological abuse and I truly hope you recognize this. Furthermore, what ever got settled and resolved by calling the other person "insane"?

WorkingDAD said:
I will not leave this as is. Or you think I will? Even ,if you give me at least my lost time ( which will reduce your time to EOW and wens-days) min 2 year(I did math) and full custody of *Son*, as that would be in his best interest.
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Again, read the statement in full:

"my lost time" - nothing about the child's time. One would question if the person in question sees the child as a unique and individual or an object to be fought over and won in court like property. The possessive nature of "my" statements shouldn't be overlooked.

WorkingDAD said:
Even this will not stop me to go to trial ( to both trials). I will never leave this, as is.
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This may constitute "all or nothing thinking" otherwise known as "splitting":

Cognitive distortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

"Give me everything I ask for or give me nothing."

Also known as "going for broke". What people don't realize is when you "go for broke" you either get what you want or you go broke. It in itself is the root of all "splitting" (black and white) thinking.

By making an offer to settle WD, you are demonstrating that you are not a black and white thinker. I hope you truly understand this.

WorkingDAD said:
You should take ALL responsibilities for what you did.
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This kind of thinking is the main theme of William Eddy's book is all about this and is titled "It's All Your Fault". Not the caps on the word "ALL" in that statement. You are responsible for everything that this person in question is feeling. They are not responsible for anything it appears. You are the root of all that is bad in their life. You are possible their "target of blame" for their projections.

HCI High Conflict Speakers, Books, Consultations

They pick a Target of Blame and assault that person verbally, physically, financially, etc. They promote high conflict divorces, lawsuits, complaints against co-workers, neighbors, friends and family. They sue professionals, gather negative advocates, cost employers lots of time and money. They convince everyone that it's all your fault! If you're dealing with a situation like this then you've come to the right place to get information, resources and tools to help you.
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That quote is right off the main page of Mr. Eddy's site. How is this email to you not exactly what is described on the front page of the website?

WorkingDAD said:
So, you can go to his Honor and talk. He likes you and will give you perfect advice. I am not required and his honor will dismiss you ( as he clearly said, I may not attend if I wish , he will understand me). There is NOTHING you CAN offer me.
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I would bring this correspondence into "his Honor" and request the necessary technical orders that can be made for disclosure and get some sage advice from "his Honor". In fact, my recommendation would be to talk to Stephen Watkins directly, get his feedback from his research and bring that information with you and discuss the matter if possible and what resolutions can be put forward in an offer to settle.

Good Luck!
Tayken
 
the screwed up thing WD is that no matter what you would have sent her, she would have sent the opposite reply.

You want to settle she says you are making things up and never really feared for the child being taken. If you would have said lets go to court, she would have said that you are the one who is keeping the legal stuff going and she just wants to settle it.

You just cant deal with crazy
 
She choose to self represent. Her intent may be for you to give up. Im guessing after the trial she will keep filing motions and keep going to court.....
 
standing on the sidelines said:
the screwed up thing WD is that no matter what you would have sent her, she would have sent the opposite reply.

You want to settle she says you are making things up and never really feared for the child being taken. If you would have said lets go to court, she would have said that you are the one who is keeping the legal stuff going and she just wants to settle it.

You just cant deal with crazy
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"...And just when you think you've reached the bottom of her craziness, there's a crazy underground garage."
 
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