My ex is stealing my kids clothing!!

[billm]

It is NOT your responsibility to furnish his home with all of the accoutrements required for your children’s care while they are with him, particularly when he is sending the children home in clothes that are not wearable (too small, etc.). It would be a different story if he were sending the children home in appropriate clothing that could be worn in both homes, but, from what you wrote, he is not.

Perhaps he is trying to keep some of the clothing so that when the kids show up with not enough clothing for the stay (just what they are wearing), he has clothes to put them in. As my previous post clearly states in the opinion of a family court judge, the child's clothing should come from the primary residence.

This should not be a big issue though - the CS recipient pays for the clothes, the clothes stay with the kids. Simple. The parents should come together on this.

[blinkandimgone]

Agree with the majority of the posters, you get full child support ergo YOU clothe the children. If they're going to their dad's for the weekend they should be packing a bag. If you prefer that he outfit the children with supplies for his place as well then you should consider refunding some of the child support money you recieve so that he can afford to use the moeny as it is intended - to clothe the children ALL of the time.

[Fuming]

Your previous post is from another poster on this forum. Attached is a link from a CANADIAN site that discusses the issue. Mind you, it’s only one site, and I haven’t looked into it in any great detail, but, see another opinion below. It appears that the the Child Support Guidelines are not so cut and dry on this issue and appear to be more ambiguous than not (big surprise…haha!).
(I agree with you, by the way, that it shouldn’t be a big issue. The clothes should, as you say, “stay with the kids”. Or, the reasonable thing, at the very least, is to be returning the children in equally appropriate clothing, not clothes that are unwearable due to small size, etc. When he returns them in clothes that cannot be used, he is in effect, taking away from the portion of child support the mother is paying for the clothing as she is now charged with replacing unwearable clothes for wearable ones.)

http://www.benmor.com/support.php
Are the Child Support Guidelines fair to the access parent?
In 1997, the federal and provincial governments of Canada decided to create a uniform and consistent approach to determining how much child support was to be paid by one parent to the other after they separated. This decision resulted in the creation of the Child Support Guidelines which include tables that set out the exact amount of child support that is to be paid by the access parent to the parent that has custody of the children.
The Guidelines' stated objectives are to establish "a fair standard of support for children that ensures that they continue to benefit from the financial means of both spouses after separation…and to reduce conflict and tension between spouses by making the calculation of child support orders more objective." However, a significant void was left in this law. Specifically, the Guidelines treated all access parents in the same way when in fact there are many different economic consequences to access parents.
To illustrate this by way of an example, consider Joe, Mike and Bill. They are all separated. They each have two children who reside with their ex-wives. All three men earn $50,000 per year. According to the Guidelines, each man must pay $700 per month in child support for both children. On its face, this may seem fair. However, Joe is completely estranged from his children and does not have any relationship with them. Mike visits with his children every other Saturday afternoon for five hours. Bill has the children with him each and every weekend from Friday night to Sunday night.
As you can see, each one of these fathers spends varying amounts of time with his children and, as a consequence, spends varying amounts of money on the children during their time together. However, all three fathers are treated in the exact same way economically.
One of the only few options available to an access parent is to seek a reduction from the table amount if the children are in his care for at least 40 per cent of the time. But this does not help Joe, Mike, or especially Bill, who truly does incur significant expenses to exercise access to his children every weekend. His expenses include an extra bedroom, furniture, clothing, toys, sporting equipment, groceries, meals, and recreational costs.
There are many access parents who have been complaining about the inherent unfairness of the Guidelines and how this unfairness directly impacts the quality of care that they are able to provide to their children during access times. They complain that the Guidelines have caused the exact opposite response to their objectives. Access parents such as Bill have found that the Guidelines have ignored the importance of the relationship between the children and the access parent by making money—not the quality of the relationship—a priority. This has invariably caused conflict and tension between spouses, which the Guidelines were supposed to reduce.

[mcdreamy]

Every season I would go through dd's existing clothes, buy her new ones, and send a box of clothes to her dad's house (both worn and new), so that she had the appropriate seasonal clothing at both residences.

As time passed, she herself would keep certain clothing items at my house because they were her favourites, and she wore them often.

It would never have occurred to me to not send clothes to his house - simply put, it was and still is for the benefit of our daughter.

[MommaMouse]

My issue isn't sending over an extra 2 outfits every season, my issue is he takes an out fit every two weeks, therefore at his house he has more clothes than the kids could possibly wear.
I have TRIED sending clothes for the weekend, as well extra rain boots umbrellas, sweaters, they don't get returned. My daughter asks for things back and her father tells her they were lost. He threw out a pair of boots that was 3 days old saying that they were too small.
I make a wooping $250/week plus my $140 in CS for two kids and must raise them both on that. My options are to spend my CS on clothes or food.
From what I'm reading there are no rules/laws on who is responsible for supplying clothes just varying opinions.

[billm]

From what I'm reading there are no rules/laws on who is responsible for supplying clothes just varying opinions.

hahahaha that's funny. You seem to have selective reading.

There are two issues.

1. Who should pay for the clothes (you!), and
2. who owns the clothes (the kids!).

How you work out the details is between you and your ex. You have not been providing the kids with enough clothes for their stay, that by your own admission, so that would be a place to start.

[MommaMouse]

You have selective reading too,

I have provided them with clothing for their weekends, HE DOES NOT RETURN THE CLOTHES, so therefore after months of sending clothes with them not being returned I only send them with what I can afford to replace. Also he has been keeping the clothes I send for months so therefore has enough clothing at his home to outfit the children

I see no concrete evidence in writing that says it is my responsibility to send clothing for his visitation. If we are going by what someone says an unnamed judge said than you are correct but excuse me if I don't take that as concrete proof.

[Tayken]

I have no idea what to do about this but I am at my wits end!! I have full custody but my kids go to their fathers every other weekend and once during the week. When they go they are fully clothed in clothes that are appropriate for the weather and fit. When they come home they have no socks, no underwear, my son is wearing girls clothes that are far too small for him, his older sister is wearing clothes that are far too small for her or out of season/just not appropriate. Just yesterday I picked them up and my son was wearing boxers and nothing else!! The way I figure it I'm losing one full set of clothes every week! I don't want to stoop to his level but I have no idea what to do about this!!

Hi MommaMouse,

I highly recommend you read the book "Shared Parenting with a Jerk!". Although the title is a bit "rude" the content of the book is incredibly well done.

There are many high-conflict tactics that parents attempt after seperation. The book goes through many of them in detail.

The other parent may think they are being "creative" or the "first person" to have ever done this... But, every trick in the book has been done, has been documented and is common knowledge in the divorce industry.

Specifically, the book I am recommending provides strategies on how to deal with and cope with the "jerky" things other parents may do. As well, it may reveal some of the "jerky" things you are doing that you may not be aware of.

Parenting after separation is not something most parents have ever tooled themselves for. But, they should as the rules of parenting change significantly.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

You have selective reading too,

I have provided them with clothing for their weekends, HE DOES NOT RETURN THE CLOTHES, so therefore after months of sending clothes with them not being returned I only send them with what I can afford to replace. Also he has been keeping the clothes I send for months so therefore has enough clothing at his home to outfit the children

I see no concrete evidence in writing that says it is my responsibility to send clothing for his visitation. If we are going by what someone says an unnamed judge said than you are correct but excuse me if I don't take that as concrete proof.

Hi MommaMouse,

I suggest you research your concerns on CanLII or consult a solicitor. In situations like this as the custodial parent you do have some responsibilities to the visiting parent. Clothing being one of those things.

I don't think people are trying to say you are wrong that he is keeping the clothing. It sounds more like a dirty tactic to me that needs to be addressed by your solicitor through correspondence. Pointing out the problem in a non-conflict way should stop the "jerky" behaviour you are witnessing.

Don't assume what is happening to the clothing. Don't project blame. Just ask where the clothing is going and if the other parent needs additional clothing and support. Don't fall into the other parent's immature games.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[billm]

You have selective reading too,

I have provided them with clothing for their weekends, HE DOES NOT RETURN THE CLOTHES, so therefore after months of sending clothes with them not being returned I only send them with what I can afford to replace. Also he has been keeping the clothes I send for months so therefore has enough clothing at his home to outfit the children

I see no concrete evidence in writing that says it is my responsibility to send clothing for his visitation. If we are going by what someone says an unnamed judge said than you are correct but excuse me if I don't take that as concrete proof.

...When they go they are fully clothed in clothes

I took this to mean that there was no additional clothing provided by you. (which from what you have said in this discussion I believe is true since you don't feel it is your responsibility). Yet now you say that you did provide all the clothing.

I'll be he is not playing a game. He just keeps the clothes because the kids are at his house 2 weekends and 4 days each month and he needs some there, but does not have enough.

If you don't accept the direct quote from someone in this forum that has stood in front of a judge that said it was YOUR responsibility to provide clothes, then you'll have to search CANLII. Again, its not really hard to understand that it is your responsibility given that he is pay full CS to you, but you don't want to change your mind despite being told by everyone that that is the case.

My guess, from what you have said here - you don't provide enough clothes, he is upset by that and refuses to buy more, and keeps what he can so that he does not have to, but does not have enough, so the kids have to wear clothes that he provides that does not suite you (but does suite him).

The solution - provide more clothes, try to improve communications with him, and hope that he will return them.

[DunnMom]

Kinda BTDT and solved it pretty simply especially when they were so young.

My ex had them EOW (no mid-week access) ... and their new clothes would go "missing" and return 6 mos later when too small.

So I went out to Value Village and purchased 2 pairs of jeans, 2 pairs of track pants, 2 sweatshirt, 2 T-Shirts, 2 swim shorts for each the boys which I sent to ex's house.

The first time I did this, I was home before ex picked them up for his Friday access so when the boys got home from school in their "nice" clothes, they put on a pair of the used ones and carted that off with the rest of what I bought to ex's & I told ex that the clothes could stay with him.

After that point, every 8-12 months I'd do the same thing. For 2 boys' it cost me approx. $50/yr. Well worth it. Saved my sanity and their "good" clothes were at my home where they spent 26+ days of the month.

[dinkyface]

... Value Village ... when the boys got home from school in their "nice" clothes, they put on a pair of the used ones and carted that off with the rest of what I bought to ex's & I told ex that the clothes could stay with him.... their "good" clothes were at my home where they spent 26+ days of the month.

Boys - I guess they didn't mind that. And Dad didn't notice. But I'd freak if my ex dumped our girl's crap clothes on me. Yes dear, you get to wear the crap at daddy's house, but all your nice dresses stay here. So, are you looking forward to your next stay with daddy?

Oh, wait ... my ex doesn't provide ANY clothes beyond what she's wearing. That's right, I pay almost $900 in CS each month, and I still have to provide a full wardrobe for my house, including coats/boots/hats/etc. for rain, or playing in snow, plus nice dresses/shoes for special occasions. You can bet I appreciate that, given that I'm currently unemployed.

[staysingle]

I like DunnMom's advice. I don't recommend Tayken's advice and have a "solicitor" send a letter. For the price of that "letter" you could buy a years worth of clothing. Don't pay lawyers to push paper around. Besides, most people know nobody needs to respond to those costly "letters".

Also, and I know you don't wish to hear this but, when the original legal architects created the "child support guidelines" one of the most important assumptions they began with was the NCVP had zero child centered costs. Thats right,zero.
So in fact , under a typical primary residence/ EOW scenario the only expenses legally for the NCP are section 7 expenses.

[MommaMouse]

Boys - I guess they didn't mind that. And Dad didn't notice. But I'd freak if my ex dumped our girl's crap clothes on me. Yes dear, you get to wear the crap at daddy's house, but all your nice dresses stay here. So, are you looking forward to your next stay with daddy?

Oh, wait ... my ex doesn't provide ANY clothes beyond what she's wearing. That's right, I pay almost $900 in CS each month, and I still have to provide a full wardrobe for my house, including coats/boots/hats/etc. for rain, or playing in snow, plus nice dresses/shoes for special occasions. You can bet I appreciate that, given that I'm currently unemployed.

I guess this is where I get confused, if she legally has to provide clothing for your kids at your house than why do you buy them?
Also what is a reasonable amount? This summer I have given my ex 5 of everything, how much does he really need? And who's to determine what is enough?

I think its admirable that you provide for your kids but remember not all NCP do. If you only had to pay $140 do you think you could bring yourself to buy t-shirts and pants for your kids?

[DunnMom]

Boys - I guess they didn't mind that. And Dad didn't notice. But I'd freak if my ex dumped our girl's crap clothes on me. Yes dear, you get to wear the crap at daddy's house, but all your nice dresses stay here. So, are you looking forward to your next stay with daddy?

Oh, wait ... my ex doesn't provide ANY clothes beyond what she's wearing. That's right, I pay almost $900 in CS each month, and I still have to provide a full wardrobe for my house, including coats/boots/hats/etc. for rain, or playing in snow, plus nice dresses/shoes for special occasions. You can bet I appreciate that, given that I'm currently unemployed.

Guess I AM lucky that my ex is the father of BOYS so no need for the "girl" issues. Although, I think your taking your bitterness towards your ex out on people who don't even know you. And if your still paying $900/mo in CS while unemployed then that's YOUR issue as you should have filed a Motion to Change

My ex saw the boys MAXIMUM 4 days a month (it's down to about 2 now) ... there has NEVER been a case of ex needed "dressy clothes" for the boys to take them to anything because he doesn't. He's a (pardon the stereotype here .. a "mans man") ... gettin' dirty, hunting, fishing ... no need for anything "cool" that the boys want (like DC Shoes or Aeropostal jeans) ... hence the refusal to return their day-to day clothes ... ie. CONTROL ISSUE) ... so in MY case ... purchasing "weekend" kicking around clothes superseded my anxiety and his bitching about the kids' not having clothes at his house. He was actually happy as a pig in shit over my clothing delivery's.

And further, I really hope that your not suggesting that people on lower incomes can't get "good" or "clean" clothing at 2nd hand stores. Cause I guarantee you, if your daughter needed a "party dress", Value Village has PLENTY at a fraction of the price you'd pay retail.