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Tayken · #11 09-18-2012, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftmomont

I do appreciate all advice. Of course I am still emotional and am just not very good at explaining myself without that emotion getting in the way.

The best person to help you sort out your emotions/feelings is a clinical psychologist. Don't be afraid to seek assistance at this time for yourself. The Honorable Justice Brownstone in his book "Tug of War" recommends that litigants seek therapy. The courts should not look negatively on someone who seeks proper help in dealing with their emotions.

You can talk to your family doctor and request a referal to the practice social worker. (If your doctor is a part of a family health team in Ontario.) This is also another alternative to a clinical psychologist.

Personally, I highly recommend a therapist trained in Cognitive Behavior Therapy. This methodology of treatment gives you appropriate tools on how to notice, name and do something (often nothing) about the emotions you are experiencing. Some social workers have been trained in CBT.

If you get a referral from your doctor the services *should* be covered by OHIP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftmomont

I do not want to even go to court...I want to settle but it doesnt look to be happening.

Are you the "applicant" or the "respondent" in the matters filed with the court. If you are the applicant and didn't "want to even go to court..." why did you take the matter to court then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftmomont

A previous settlement agreement was ignored.

This happens all the time. It is unfortunate. But, you may be able to recover costs if the court decides in your favour or a decision is render that closely matches your original offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftmomont

I do have a lawyer and had my first CC.

A mediated solution... how did it fair? What advice did the judge give to both parties on the arguments they were presenting or how they were trying to solve problems? What is the next step in the litigated process? Settlement Conference or a motion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftmomont

The ex lives nearby so far. He hasnt contributed anything to the home or kids since separation (sadly hardly ever....) He claims to make 1300/month yet pays $1200 + in rent.

That may be very well the cost to rent in the area and to be close to the children's habitual residence. Remember, as you are the party residing in the matrimonial home they may bring forward a request to pay "occupational rent" against you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftmomont

The realization is he married me because I could be supportive.

Isn't this one of the major reasons to marry someone though? To support each other?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftmomont

I am not by any means rich....but I have worked all my life and was taught the values of hard work and saving.

That is good but, how is it relevant to your matters?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftmomont

Yes when I say I worked full time thru the marriage and ran the household --I indeed did all I could. I did have a child care provider for the very early years but when I came home I did the child care,laundry, cooking, cleaning etc. I did not document his lack of anything to do at the house-- although I wish I had.

You can document it now though. But, the argument weakens when there are child care providers involved. Your lawyer can guide you on how to present the evidence or if it is even relevant to the matters at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftmomont

With respect to things like shoveling the driveway etc--those things honestly didnt get done-unless I flagged down a neighbour boy. Many of those years I was the pregnant wife who left the shovel at both ends of the laneway in order to get to the front door. Again--it wasnt what I wanted to do but I didnt have a choice.

Again, although you are feeling emotional about this what you have to be able to do is objectively review this statement:

"I didn't have a choice." Why didn't you have a choice?

Good Luck!
Tayken

ftmomont · #12 09-18-2012, 07:54 AM

Good morning
Thank you Tayken again
I would like to say that the first agreement was ignored because he truly believes he doesnt have to pay any cs. He is adamantly saying he will take care of them when they are in his care. He has since this agreement went on to high a higher priced lawyer.
He has said he doesnt believe in any extra-curricular activities etc and that they dont "need" some of the activities I try to provide for them. Hence he has contributed anything .
During the CC the master pope told him that he had to pay some cs and that he has to show for the next judge that he has made some attempt at earning more of a living in that he is physically able.
This is my ex's second residence. The home he chose is pretty elaborate. There are many other places in town at a more reasonable rent but he is yes, used to a higher standard of living.He has full intentions on moving " once this is over" into a farther away community (45 min) in with his gf.
Days after the CC he is says that he has an apt with a second career school...

The realization is he married me because I could be supportive.
I was supportive of him thru the years in his attempts to earn a living etc but what I am saying is that he married me to be taken care of monitarily.

The relevance of whether I am not rich is that I cannot to afford to pay him ss in any amount and raise my children. I have many more years to go in the raising of my children and will need every penny .Yes I make approx ($65) and need sll of it to raise my family.
He never finished high school and doesnt see the importance of higher education and I do.
In matters around the house when I say I didnt have a choice-----In order for something to get done, after the nagging and waiting for something to get done-it was easier to just do it myself or get it done. Even the sitter had to literally jump snowbanks to get to the house . Again in the last 5-6 years I was pregnant and/or caring for three young children and tried to minimize conflict as much as I could and I did try to make the marriage work.
So .......what are my options?? It sounds as though the only option is to settle and give him the money he wants....problem is I do not know what he wants because he doesnt want to say for fear he could get more.......
He is being nasty and vendicitive and saying things to my kids. The lawyers have set up a questioning session in two weeks.
Again I do not know what avenue to take......

Mess · #13 09-18-2012, 08:34 AM

You aren't being clear about what the actual issues are. He is asking for money? How much, based on what?

Custody: Is he challenging the current EOW access schedule?

Support (Child): At the case conference it was suggested he could be earning more money. What skills does he have, what does he do at his business and other work? What would someone earn working as a full-time employee doing this type of work? He should be imputed a wage at this level, meaning it should be assumed he is earning, say, $40k a year whether he is or not.

Children's Expenses: Most of the children's expenses should be covered within their ordinary budget. He will pay a certain amount, which should be based on imputed income. You will pay out for their expenses and activities out of that, and your share from your income. The reality is, he will earn less than you and pay what seems to you little support. Some expenses are deemed Extraordinary. These are primarily daycare, summer camps (for child care purposes), medical expenses over $100, and certain sports that are unusually high, generally because the child is competing at an elite level or has a chance for a scholarship. These expenses get split proportionate to income.

Support (Spousal):

You had a short marriage, he is not necessarily entitled to support, he would have to prove entitlement. At this point if he seeks support, that is your answer.
Secondly, amount, would be based on the imputed wage he is capable of earning.
Thirdly, support for the children takes precedence, if you have the children full time this is an issue but you have to argue it properly and show a budget that includes the children's expenses and how spousal support would hurt the children.
Duration for a short year marriage would be .5 per year of marriage; 5 years in your case only if he could prove entitlement in the first place.

Marital Home: The marital home gets split 50/50, no arguments. You are keeping the home, you pay half its value in equalization. This will be the biggest item you have to consider.

Equalization: All assests you both accumulated during the marriage, minus all debt existing at separation.

Equalization (Family Business): While I understand your concern here, you say your family is taking care of proving that the business is owned by them. You are an employee, that should be shown by payroll and presumably they have been declaring your payroll and any benefits as an expense. This can be proven, so don't worry about it. Further, even if you inherit it, inheritances are excluded from equalization.

Some comments on fairness. You knew when you married he didn't have post-secondary education, the type of work he did, and what type of income he had. You agreed to that then, and you chose to have four children with him. While married, income is family income, it is shared by all. You brought in more, he brought in less. The situtation isn't any better for him right now, in fact it is worse. He doesn't have a good job, he doesn't have an education, he will be expected to pay support on an income he isn't earning. You make a point that he "didn't see the worth of an education" but you note that he won't be earning much income right away because he is planning on going to a career college.

You are obviously very close to the situation, we all were/are. You are upset, you see the worst in him, and the vulnerabilities you have. He has them too. Work on the process of letting go. Get the divorce sorted out mathematically and accept the result.

murphyslaw · #14 09-18-2012, 08:46 AM

^ what Mess said

It is spot on.You are getting wrapped up in fear and panic over his threats.Dont be.He has NO power,by heeding anything he says you are giving power to him.Think logically and concisely.Think of how you can PROVE what you say.For nearly every statement you make, have the proof of why that is true.He wants half your family business-have the paperwork to prove you are only an employee.You ran the household?You paid the bills ?Get the bank records to prove it.Let him run into debt ITS NOT YOUR PROBLEM.You are not together it doesnt matter.What does matter is your kids ,maybe counselling for them during this time would be a good thing.Maybe he can live off his gf

Tayken · #15 09-18-2012, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mess

You are obviously very close to the situation, we all were/are. You are upset, you see the worst in him, and the vulnerabilities you have. He has them too. Work on the process of letting go. Get the divorce sorted out mathematically and accept the result.

Quite possibly the most brilliant statement posted to this site in the past 6 months posted to this site. Mess, as always of course.

Some additional things to consider in light of Mess' comments:

http://highconflictinstitute.com/ima...rightbrain.pdf

You Know You're Taking It Personally When...

And in particular this article:

When Math People and Feelings People Negotiate

Quote:

Originally Posted by When Math People and Feelings People Negotiate

Feelings People

Feelings people, on the other hand, usually don’t have a clear idea of what they want. They often feel that they have been taken advantage of, and they want to be compensated for their injury – whether it’s a personal injury claim, a business deal gone bad, or a divorce which included some “bad behavior” in their point of view (sometimes the math person agrees, but more often he or she doesn’t). They may feel entitled to a substantial settlement to make up for the past and/or to give them a feeling of security in the future. They may be in shock over what has happened to them, or they may be feeling much fear about what will become of them in the future. Feelings people may see themselves as facing impossible problems in the future, so that they need a substantial settlement to provide the security that they feel they cannot provide themselves.

Why can’t you see what you’ve done to me and how disadvantaged I will be in the future? they often ask. Why can’t you see how you’ll be so much better off than I will be? They feel helpless and seriously disrespected when their proposals are rejected. Discussions feel increasingly painful, as the math person seems to reject the feelings person’s point of view. The feelings person may feel abandoned and disrespected, especially if he or she was in a relationship with expectations of being taken care of – whether by an insurance company, a business partner, or a seemingly successful spouse.

One of my favourite articles by Mr. William Eddy.

Good Luck!
Tayken

billm · #16 09-18-2012, 11:21 AM

He has to pay you CS based on his actual income (and that means what is reported on his tax return unless he does not report income or has unreasonable business expenses). Him having expense that exceed his reported income is a red flag that you can use to show he is not being forthright about his income.

You may have to pay him SS, though if what you say is true, that having a family and being married did not interfere with his career, then I don't think he is entitled, but the courts may disagree. You taking care of the kids lowers your SS liability.

He does not have a claim on any inheritance you may receive from your family business or any other inheritance.

He may not be working as hard as you think he should, but he was that way when you met him, was that way during your marriage. It is not reasonable for you to expect him to make more money or work harder than he is now.

He gets half the assets and debts acquired during the marriage.

He gets half the equity in the matrimonial home.

I would force him to pay CS, and let the SS chips fall where they may.

Have you played with MySupportCalculator.ca ?

ftmomont · #17 09-18-2012, 01:07 PM

Thanks again
Mess--
The issue is money. He wants a big payment. He hasnt said how much. He doesnt think he has to pay child support unless I pay him spousal. I am ready to just say nevermind and say I will raise them all by myself. In the end I know that he wont be paying anyways and I will have a lawyer bill to contend with.
He is a physically fit and able bodied man that could work in any gerneral labourer position, factory possibly, delivery person or truck driver(as he has a license), and in the fitness area.
As for the extras--I will give my kids whatever I can and do not expect him to contribute because again, I know he wont. He will say its unnecessary.
I was only asking for a minimal 300$ / month in our first separation agreemnet and equilization where I would pay hiim a sum.He wants more! He even wanted my life insurance in HIS name.
He has no intention of returning to school and only said so in an attempt to look good in front of the next judge.
I did make the mistake of marrying him but I guess at the time Love was blind and now I just do not want my children, in the end to have to suffer.
I really find this forum informative and respect any advise because I know I am having a hard time imagining having to give him anything.
he has asked for the house to be sold . I cannot believe that he has the audasity (sp?) to even do that. But I guess thats the law.
I just want to be prepared and will expect the worse.
Thanks again

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