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  • Asking for more than you want

    I have a motion coming up.

    I have now received their reply to my reply (they filed the motion).

    The pure insanity of their numbers and contradictions is overwhelming.

    They state that I owe significant support arrears. I'm not sure what numbers they use as they didn't state how they derived it, but I can't even guess at how they arrived at the arrears - even by considering irrational and unfair methods I come up short.

    Recalculating over the past 6 years since separation and using our actual incomes for those years, I have in fact significantly overpaid support! I am not interested in getting my ex to pay me back - we did the best we could to determine the numbers, but in hindsight I overpaid.

    However in general for my upcoming motion, I have spent countless hours getting all my numbers correct and backed by evidence and reason. They on the other hand make no sense.

    My concern is that if I ask for nothing and they ask for a lot, the judge will award them something just because it will seem reasonable given our two positions.

    My position is that I have put serious effort into determining what was fair and of no advantage to either person using actual numbers and guidelines, and their position has almost no basis in fact and contains irrational conclusions. I would like the judge to review it from that position, rather than simply picking a number between our two positions.

    In fact, I think that I am being overly reasonable and a judge should determine that I should pay less than I am offering.

    Is it risky to be reasonable and not ask for more than you want, especially when the other side is asking for over double that?

  • #2
    Being a logic- (not feelings-) driven person, I have the same issue. Don't know the answer though. My offers indicate I was open to many variations of the same stance, so hopefully this gives the message of flexibility. My lawyer kept trying to get me to concede little bits, but I was already at my line.

    Your 'strategy' is only evident when you look at the sequence of settlement offers, right? So it should only matter when arguing costs? And in that case, WINNING on significant issues + acting in good faith SHOULD (logically!) be most important - I hope.
    Last edited by dinkyface; 08-29-2013, 06:45 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by billm View Post
      In fact, I think that I am being overly reasonable and a judge should determine that I should pay less than I am offering.
      But why would you be more generous than what you expect of the judge?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by dinkyface View Post
        But why would you be more generous than what you expect of the judge?
        Because the judge can force a settlement and I can't.

        Also, we made agreements, I followed them the best I could. If in the end according to guidelines and what our incomes actually were I overpaid I don't feel justified asking for that over payment back (unless it was obtained through deception - and even then, I just want to be done and move forward).

        I would love the judge to order that she pays me some arrears, and orders me to pay less than my offer etc, based on the facts of the case. She deserves it for all the completely unjustified hassle she has caused myself and our kids. Also, she needs to be shut down and not given anymore options to spend money on lawyers - its been 6 years, I've overpaid, time for a divorce.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by billm View Post
          Also, we made agreements, I followed them the best I could. If in the end according to guidelines and what our incomes actually were I overpaid I don't feel justified asking for that over payment back (unless it was obtained through deception - and even then, I just want to be done and move forward).
          As I understand the system, you should first be making an offer to avoid court. Make your offer the one that you consider to be completely rational and fair based on your logical calculations.

          Then, if she does not accept it and you end up in court anyway, ask for the arrears. You are therefore demonstrating that you tried to be reasonable and generous to avoid court, but now that you are forced to be there, you are going in with a request for your best case scenario. This way, if the judge's finding lands anywhere between your original offer and the arrears, you can ask for costs as well.

          And then make sure all your financial documents are straightforward and easily understood by a non-accountant, non-self-employed judge. If hers are incomprehensible to you, they probably will be to a judge as well.

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          • #6
            If you overpaid then you will likely get credited for that. I'd look at this as unemotional as possible and simply submit your numbers.

            Keep everything logical and make it ABC so an idiot could follow your presentation. Simple spreadsheets help.

            Keep your submission short and to the point.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by arabian View Post
              If you overpaid then you will likely get credited for that. I'd look at this as unemotional as possible and simply submit your numbers.

              Keep everything logical and make it ABC so an idiot could follow your presentation. Simple spreadsheets help.

              Keep your submission short and to the point.
              Everything has been submitted - I have a spread sheet that shows everything I want to show. Also many other exhibits to refer to - I have all the evidence I need. I'm even using some of theirs as it helps my case. There are so many things that are not true or are self contradicting in their affidavit that I can easily disprove it makes me wonder how much I should go over, when in reality, all that matters is income for the most part.

              The only question in my mind is what is my income. I average 18% expenses (all legit) in my one man self employed incorporated company - totally reasonable I think, and after adding back 75% of expenses that have some benefit (with gross up!) like cell phone and my home office (that I exclusively work out of every day), I'm at 9% expenses of my gross receipts - I can't believe anyone would find that unreasonable - yet, that is not good enough for my ex and her fourth lawyer.

              The shear enormity of what they want when in fact I have overpaid is so shocking - now that I'm in 'the system', I can see that it is not designed well because it is adversarial and lawyers don't help to find a fair solution, they try to get as much as they can - which leads to gross misrepresentations in the documents filed.

              I should win as I have the numbers and evidence strongly on my side - we should not be in court. However, given that I have never done this, despite my participation here, it is a very stressful time. It takes away from my job and my kids. There is only one thing to do, and that is go through it, but I feel I'm not a free person and am assumed guilty and must prove that I am innocent.
              Last edited by billm; 08-29-2013, 11:04 PM.

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              • #8
                9% is totally reasonable. I'd definitely put in the cell phones and internet as that is pretty much acceptable business expense. Now take a break from this for a while.

                You are articulate and she is not. Lawyer is likely blowing smoke up her ass. 4th lawyer - well that speaks volumes right there. Every time we are in court my lawyer very politely makes the judge aware of all the different legal counsel my ex has had. This doesn't go unnoticed I can assure you.

                You know your numbers. Go with it. Quit doubting yourself.

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                • #9
                  By the way if they don't show how they came at arriving at their calculation for support arrears they are f**ked. They should have shown that in their documents. A good lawyer would accuse them of being on a 'fishing trip.'

                  Motion denied - is my prediction

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by arabian View Post
                    By the way if they don't show how they came at arriving at their calculation for support arrears they are f**ked. They should have shown that in their documents. A good lawyer would accuse them of being on a 'fishing trip.'

                    Motion denied - is my prediction
                    Well, given that I'm going into this no matter what (their most recent offer is insane in that it is 100K different from what I think is true), some 'don't worry' advice is fine by me.

                    Regarding 'motion denied' - I was wondering if judges feel compelled to order something. I don't have a cross motion - I think all is well, we have agreed how to determine my income (at least we did recently, but my ex changes her mind a lot), and we update July 1, based on previous year income - which is what is in our SA (which is not witnessed and they want it tossed) - all is well in my opinion and no temporary order is needed.

                    My ex I think wants too much from this motion - things that should be settled by trial such as arrears etc and whether our signed SA should be set aside. I'm paying her according to our agreement, which is more than our current incomes. I'd be fine if the judge just said 'all is well - take it to trial if you want' - do they do that (not make orders)?

                    As for calculations - they use divorce mate, I use mysupportcalculator.ca. But their inputs are BS, and I have replied as such. Though their numbers change with each affidavit and offer and they don't always show how they arrived at arrears.
                    Last edited by billm; 08-29-2013, 11:27 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Our judge did not feel at all compelled to settle my CS reduction request before trial - apparently because only in trial could the truth of the claims be determined. And even expressed sympathy with the frustration I must be feeling when the 'wheels' turn so slowly. My ex accepted my offer a week before trial.

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                      • #12
                        Yes judges do say "motion denied" frequently, particularly if one party doesn't give clear evidence of what they are seeking. You would then be entitled to costs.

                        The only thing you have to remember is not to "piggy back" on someone else's motion. If you are looking for something that isn't in play, then you need to have a cross-motion.

                        Of course if you do a motion make sure to request costs.

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