First Post - Wished it was better circumstances

[Pharah]

Wow NBDAD, that is not a happy picture there. Sad but very true.

[NBDad]

I'm realistic, been there done that.

I spent 2 years and over 10K fighting for custody.

I won, only because she made a couple of serious missteps.

[MAC-JMJ]

Hopefully your ex is a complete idiot...otherwise...here's how she screws you.

Step 1: Quit her job (he's not paying child support *sob sob*)

Step 2: Go on welfare (I need to protect the kids SOMEHOW *sob sob*)

Step 3: Collect free legal aid lawyer

Step 4: File for exclusive possession of Mat home + temp orders for you to continue servicing ALL the bills as per the status quo + temp orders for full table amounts of child support.

What I meant by that is she won't put the kids in that sort of financial disarray. Sure it is one thing to take it out on me but she is only mid 30's and knows that CS alone would not cut it, right. Welfare would not approve her with the equity avaliable in the home and eventually the CS stops and what then for her. She is a good mom, and a good person outside what her & I went through. Even though she may hate me she loves our kids too much to be a dead beat or risk them finding out later on what she did. I respect your advice and think I may try the utility route as a means to get this process started. One question I have though is if she went and received exclusive possession of the home, can I still file a motion to have it sold or does she then hold of the home cards as well?

Thanks again.

[NBDad]

Exclusive possession just means you can't live there until things are finalized.

She pretty much has that now anyway.

[Rioe]

Just be honest and straightforward with her. Tell her you can't afford to keep going as things are, and you both need to move on. Warn her you will be closing accounts to frills, as suggested, like cable, internet, long distance, and that you will be arranging to transfer other essential utilities into her name as she is the one still residing in the home. Once things are in her own name, you just pay her a monthly amount, estimated based on child support (impute her an income if you have the children enough to only pay an offset amount) plus some spousal support amount if you still make significantly more than she does even if you assume she could work full time. Then, as the one thing you can't remove your name from is the mortgage, as you absolutely want to keep paying that, give her a monthly cheque, as suggested previously, using the memo field to itemize CS+SS-1/2 the mortgage payment. Then if that's insufficient, it's up to her to start going through her savings and racking up her own credit cards and realizing the house has to be sold.

Meanwhile, be as frugal as you can, and use the money you save only on essentials. Financial protection mode for a while will help in the long run, as previously mentioned, especially if you owe her arrears once the dust settles.

Good luck!

[MAC-JMJ]

Just be honest and straightforward with her. Tell her you can't afford to keep going as things are, and you both need to move on. Warn her you will be closing accounts to frills, as suggested, like cable, internet, long distance, and that you will be arranging to transfer other essential utilities into her name as she is the one still residing in the home. Once things are in her own name, you just pay her a monthly amount, estimated based on child support (impute her an income if you have the children enough to only pay an offset amount) plus some spousal support amount if you still make significantly more than she does even if you assume she could work full time. Then, as the one thing you can't remove your name from is the mortgage, as you absolutely want to keep paying that, give her a monthly cheque, as suggested previously, using the memo field to itemize CS+SS-1/2 the mortgage payment. Then if that's insufficient, it's up to her to start going through her savings and racking up her own credit cards and realizing the house has to be sold.

Meanwhile, be as frugal as you can, and use the money you save only on essentials. Financial protection mode for a while will help in the long run, as previously mentioned, especially if you owe her arrears once the dust settles.

Good luck!

Thanks for the response Rioe, man the more responses I get the more I wonder if things are going to just turn out bad for me . So this is the problem, if I pay her in CS, etc what she is owed I will not be able to afford 50% of the mortgage as well as my other monthly obligations without eventually having to file for bankruptcy, which I do not want as an option. Then she will very easily be able to afford the home + utilities etc + debt leaving me in a worse position then now. I am then sure she could hold out even longer if she wanted too. In reading more from these forums it appears that going to court is ridiculously expensive and I have to believe that she will not go this option + I do not want to finance her the means to do so. Maybe I am wrong here but even in worse case scenario I can prove that even though not in the form of CS, that my kids + her were taken care of this whole time and that she was the one who chose not to put the house on the market. Bank agreement superceeds all and any court order, so even if the judge ordered just me to pay, the bank could still go after both of us through their contract. So in a sense it sucks because either way I go there is potential legal action. I think someone on here posted that 3 hours of court was something like $6000 which is easily an eye opener to get things done, inexpensively. I continue to try, as I will today to be rational with her and trying to make her see for the kids best interest, not sticking it to each other, but it just sucks when she knows she has lots of control and definitely uses it to her advantage.

Is there anyone who can help me out with a proposal, ie something that I can e-mail her outlining what to do. Since school finishes eom June I was thinking about agreeing to put the home up for sale but not close until the kids are done, this way they are not transferred 3/4 way through. It gives her time to find a new place and from what everyone her has been telling me I have basically forefeited my chnaces of shared custody, without going to court. For now I would allow her to be the CP as long as it is joint custody (let me know if you think differently). Equity from sale gets paid out to debt and I will also give her first/last for rent for her as she will have the kids. She can keep 90% of items in the home, I have been without them for so long anyway. We will set up a visitation schedule that we both agree too and I will pay her what the time table states for CS but will not agree to backdate because of what I have been paying this whole time to ensure they are comfortable and nothing goes into default. Because of that though I will give the option of a lump sum payment for the first year, as it is alot easier to take care of things when you have a nice sum of $$ in the bank. I am not interested in agreeing to any SS or Pension etc as like I said she can go back to work and if she tries anything funny I can show her on the system as of today etc and will say she is intentionally trying to make her situation look worse. In the end, it sucks now because I am willing to just walk away from so much but I now realize that rebuilding is > than living in the past trying to deal with this.

I know alot of what I write may be in a perfect world etc but I have to try first, right. Again thank you for your knowledge and responses and if anyone has some sort of proposal template or advice on how to structure this, while creating to her a bit of urgency, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.

[Rioe]

Thanks for the response Rioe, man the more responses I get the more I wonder if things are going to just turn out bad for me .

Sure, they will go wrong if you give up fighting. Educate yourself, stop believing what she says should happen, and get ready to go to court and represent yourself. Lots cheaper that way. Figure out your priorities. Do you want the kids half the time, or will you be okay with every other weekend (EOW)?

So this is the problem, if I pay her in CS, etc what she is owed I will not be able to afford 50% of the mortgage as well as my other monthly obligations without eventually having to file for bankruptcy, which I do not want as an option. Then she will very easily be able to afford the home + utilities etc + debt leaving me in a worse position then now. I am then sure she could hold out even longer if she wanted too.

I think you are misunderstanding what we are telling you. You've said you don't think spousal support will happen because she could work at her previous job for good pay. But you owe her child support because she has the kids the bulk of the time, and you CANNOT avoid that obligation. In fact, you have to make it look like your #1 priority for when you get to court. So you want to be giving her a cheque every month, labelled child support, and get those back after they are cashed for the proof. But this cheque is not in addition to what you pay for now, it is INSTEAD of it. You no longer pay for the utilities on the house. Give her a month's notice that you are closing the accounts and she should reopen them in her name. Or see if the companies will let you switch it to her name. The only home/joint expense you are now paying for should be the mortgage. Then, you write her a monthly cheque in the amount of your child support (table amount) MINUS half the cost of the mortgage to represent her share. If you can't do that without going bankrupt, you have a lot more problems than you have told us about.

In reading more from these forums it appears that going to court is ridiculously expensive and I have to believe that she will not go this option + I do not want to finance her the means to do so.

Going to court is ridiculously expensive only if you are paying a lawyer. It's a lot more work to self represent yourself, or at least to do a good job of it, but not nearly as expensive. And honestly, if you can't come to an agreement with her yourselves, or through mediation, then you NEED to go to court. She's got you believing you want to avoid it, probably because that lets her stay in the house longer.

Maybe I am wrong here but even in worse case scenario I can prove that even though not in the form of CS, that my kids + her were taken care of this whole time and that she was the one who chose not to put the house on the market.

No, unless you have those returned cheques labelled CS, you have no proof that you were taking care of the kids. All you have is proof you were paying the mortgage and the utilities. You cannot rely on that to satisfy a judge.

Bank agreement superceeds all and any court order, so even if the judge ordered just me to pay, the bank could still go after both of us through their contract. So in a sense it sucks because either way I go there is potential legal action. I think someone on here posted that 3 hours of court was something like $6000 which is easily an eye opener to get things done, inexpensively.

It doesn't cost that much to go to court. It costs that much to bring a lawyer with you.

I continue to try, as I will today to be rational with her and trying to make her see for the kids best interest, not sticking it to each other, but it just sucks when she knows she has lots of control and definitely uses it to her advantage.

The only control she has is the control you have given her. Stop doing it. There are suggestions in the earlier parts of this thread about how to push for more access with your children. Use them.

Is there anyone who can help me out with a proposal, ie something that I can e-mail her outlining what to do.

Read the book "Surviving your Divorce" by Cochrane. It has stuff on common-law as well, it isn't just for marriages. The appendix has a sample Separation Agreement you can use as a basis for making your own.

Also read "Tug of War" by Brownstone, for how to get through this process with the least impact on your children. If you can get your ex to read this one, that might help too.

Since school finishes eom June I was thinking about agreeing to put the home up for sale but not close until the kids are done, this way they are not transferred 3/4 way through. It gives her time to find a new place and from what everyone her has been telling me I have basically forefeited my chnaces of shared custody, without going to court. For now I would allow her to be the CP as long as it is joint custody (let me know if you think differently).

Do you want to share custody 50-50? Fight for it! In any case, definitely don't give up joint custody even if you go the OEW route.

Equity from sale gets paid out to debt and I will also give her first/last for rent for her as she will have the kids. She can keep 90% of items in the home, I have been without them for so long anyway. We will set up a visitation schedule that we both agree too and I will pay her what the time table states for CS but will not agree to backdate because of what I have been paying this whole time to ensure they are comfortable and nothing goes into default. Because of that though I will give the option of a lump sum payment for the first year, as it is alot easier to take care of things when you have a nice sum of $$ in the bank. I am not interested in agreeing to any SS or Pension etc as like I said she can go back to work and if she tries anything funny I can show her on the system as of today etc and will say she is intentionally trying to make her situation look worse. In the end, it sucks now because I am willing to just walk away from so much but I now realize that rebuilding is > than living in the past trying to deal with this.

I know alot of what I write may be in a perfect world etc but I have to try first, right. Again thank you for your knowledge and responses and if anyone has some sort of proposal template or advice on how to structure this, while creating to her a bit of urgency, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.

Good luck, but honestly, if you present her with a solid proposal for a separation agreement, she may still just laugh at you, and you'll have to end up in court. But stop fearing it as it may just be what you need.

[MAC-JMJ]

Rioe, amazing post and thank you for your advice. I hope I do not come across completely dumbfounded this is my first time going through something like this and it really makes you become OCD-ish.

Here is what I previously did, I moved my pay from our joint account to my own single account and switched the mortgage payments, biweekly, to come out of my single account. So if I understand what you are saying I should have my mortgage payment switched to come out of the previous joint bank account again but only pay for one of them (To switch it to monthly I believe I will need her to agree with this, which I do not believe will happen). Send her an e-mail indicating that she will need to take ownership of the utilities as of (one month from today) and I just want to clarify the last part. I will use simple numbers here: So if I pay $1000 biweekly (say $2k per month) for the mortgage and my CS table is $1500, I would pay my one biweekly mortgage payment and write a cheque of child support for $1500 minus the amount of her half $1000? Is this right? So in this example I pay my one payment and give her $500 support and she makes the other payment?

[Pharah]

1: Organize regular visitation with your kids.
2: Stop paying her bills.
3: If you are paying 2000 bi-weekly, you pay 1000.00 of that bi-weekly amount.
4: If child support guideline amount is 1500, you either pay her 1500 and require her to pay her part of the mortgage, or you pay her 1000 in mortgage with the child support and give her the remaining balance of 500 for living expenses.

if you choose to pay her mortgage and give her the balance, you need to put that in writing and be sure that it's clear that it is CHILD SUPPORT.

[MAC-JMJ]

1: Organize regular visitation with your kids.
2: Stop paying her bills.
3: If you are paying 2000 bi-weekly, you pay 1000.00 of that bi-weekly amount.
4: If child support guideline amount is 1500, you either pay her 1500 and require her to pay her part of the mortgage, or you pay her 1000 in mortgage with the child support and give her the remaining balance of 500 for living expenses.

if you choose to pay her mortgage and give her the balance, you need to put that in writing and be sure that it's clear that it is CHILD SUPPORT.

Ok, thank you for your response but I want to be clear here. Let me change it up for this example:

1) Mortgage total $2000 per month
2) My half total would be $1000 per month
3) Child support is total $1500 per month
4) No utilities

I either give her $1500 per month CS + pay $1000 for mortgage and half of all other joint debts excluding utilities

or

I pay $2000 mortgage and write her a cheque for $500 child support and pay half of our other debts excluding utilities

Am I understanding this right?

[Pharah]

Yes, but if you choose part B of that scenario:

I pay $2000 mortgage and write her a cheque for $500 child support and pay half of our other debts excluding utilities

You have to stress that a 1000.00 of the mortgage that you paid is child support. I would think she would have to agree to this arrangement as well, otherwise just give her child support.

One more thing, you don't give her money for your joint debit. You pay that directly and make sure you have receipts.

[MAC-JMJ]

Wow, so this puts me worse off then I am now. we acclumulated a ton of debt which we would have been able to absorb into the homes equity.

Total unsecured not including mortgage or utilities is another $1420, not including my own insurance etc.

Seriously, how can I afford to pay her $500 more than I already am by paying the full mortgage and keep up the rest of the debts. As it is right now she pays our joint loan & loc but will probably ask for half once I try this.

This is unreal............

[Pharah]

OK, who's name is the debit in? Is it all joint debit?

The only way to change this is to go to court and get a ruling to sell the house. You are responsible for half of the house regardless.

[Rioe]

Okay, I can see this still isn't coming across clearly. Using your sample monthly numbers:

Your situation now:
You pay all of her utilities. You pay all mortgage payments ($2k). You are not recognized as paying any child support if this goes to court.

The situation you want:
You pay none of her utilities. She pays them all. You pay all mortgage payments ($2k). You pay her child support ($1500), but you subtract half the mortgage ($1k) from it to represent her paying you back for her half. So you are writing her a cheque for only $500. Hopefully you are saving around that much by not paying her utilities any longer. It may not work out much differently financially, but you are making it clear to her that you will not pay blindly for her expenses, and you are working further towards separating the finances, and ultimately selling the house. Plus, if/when you hit court, it's obvious you've been putting the children first and paying child support.

Absolutely don't put any money in a joint account. Your finances are not joint any longer - those accounts should all be closed. That just puts it where she can get to it and spend it however she likes, then you run the risk of defaulting on a mortgage payment.

As for all these other joint debts you seem to have, divide them up fairly as best you can. If you are paying more than half the share towards them, subtract more from the child support amount if you have to to get it even.

Honestly, the more I hear about your situation, the more I think you want to serve her papers and get to court. Any expense you pay for court to get that house sold is probably going to be less than you are wasting now paying an unfair share of all this debt and bills.

I like your idea of giving her the timeline of the end of the school year for the house. That shows you are being reasonable and putting the best interests of your children first, but gives her a deadline. And still do the utilities switch, to show her you mean business.

Right now, she is just coasting, living in a house you pay for and letting you look after the bills and most of the debt. Of course she's going to want to let that continue as long as possible, but deep down inside, she has to know it'll end someday. If you show her a realistic and fair plan for the future, hopefully she'll recognize it and work with you. If not, take her to court.

[MAC-JMJ]

Okay, I can see this still isn't coming across clearly. Using your sample monthly numbers:

Your situation now:
You pay all of her utilities. You pay all mortgage payments ($2k). You are not recognized as paying any child support if this goes to court.

The situation you want:
You pay none of her utilities. She pays them all. You pay all mortgage payments ($2k). You pay her child support ($1500), but you subtract half the mortgage ($1k) from it to represent her paying you back for her half. So you are writing her a cheque for only $500. Hopefully you are saving around that much by not paying her utilities any longer. It may not work out much differently financially, but you are making it clear to her that you will not pay blindly for her expenses, and you are working further towards separating the finances, and ultimately selling the house. Plus, if/when you hit court, it's obvious you've been putting the children first and paying child support.

Absolutely don't put any money in a joint account. Your finances are not joint any longer - those accounts should all be closed. That just puts it where she can get to it and spend it however she likes, then you run the risk of defaulting on a mortgage payment.

As for all these other joint debts you seem to have, divide them up fairly as best you can. If you are paying more than half the share towards them, subtract more from the child support amount if you have to to get it even.

Honestly, the more I hear about your situation, the more I think you want to serve her papers and get to court. Any expense you pay for court to get that house sold is probably going to be less than you are wasting now paying an unfair share of all this debt and bills.

I like your idea of giving her the timeline of the end of the school year for the house. That shows you are being reasonable and putting the best interests of your children first, but gives her a deadline. And still do the utilities switch, to show her you mean business.

Right now, she is just coasting, living in a house you pay for and letting you look after the bills and most of the debt. Of course she's going to want to let that continue as long as possible, but deep down inside, she has to know it'll end someday. If you show her a realistic and fair plan for the future, hopefully she'll recognize it and work with you. If not, take her to court.

Thanks again Rioe, if it is ok with you I would like to list my actual amounts, rounded to the nearest dollar, so I can be sure I am doing this properely.

I have taken everything I pay biweekly and changed it to monthly as CS is monthly and it just makes things easier to break dowm.

Of our debt together, we have two credit cards which are in my name solely that we used to acquire debt together, cash advance for down payment, items for home etc. I realize that these are legally mine but as of now she is still including these items as joint so for this I will continue with that train of thought.

Mortgage monthly $1970 so half of that is $985 (includes tax payment)
Credit Card $450 average
Credit Card $260 average
Alarm for home $35
Home Insurance $45 ( I think you are going to tell me that she should now pay the alarm & home insurance)
My CS guideline from income earned in 2010 is $1340 per month

Even though 30 days is not up I will not include utilities etc, oh and I switched my account because she was paying her cellphone + son's cellphone, gas etc all from my pay and I was left with nothing. Some of her cellphone bills were $150+/month.

What she pays:

Our joint loan $540 per month
Our Line of Credit $150 per month
Her own cellphone/groceries and some small own credit card payments she got after I left.

When I moved out she wrote to the government and now receives a $1800/month CTC + her daycare income of $200 avergae per week. As I appreciate the help, she makes sure that I know what she has paid and tries to make me feel guilty, like I should be paying for everything.

So with me paying for the mortgage etc, I can see how it isn't inspiring her to leave. I do feel so guilty though having to make my little ones leave there brand new home

So from your formula if I quickly subtract her half of the payment from the timetable CS we are left with $355 owing for CS.

If I take my two credit card debts $710 total montly and the joint loan + loc that she is paying it alos comes to $710, which appears to be a wash then.

So if I inform her that she will be responsible for the alarm of the home + insurance since she is residing their and I have listed all debt we pay, should I be mailing her a monthly cheque for $355 and labeling it Child Support?

Also, I moved back for two month in September/October of 2010, would it be smart of me to backdate from November 2010? Or only if she makes that claim?

I just worry that she will use the $355 towards the utilites anyway and she will still have both mortgage payments being made etc.

Thanks again